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[C3C] COTM136 Greece Sid - Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by Più Freddo, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    This is the thread where you tell us the whole story of your game and how in the end you did -- win, lose or retire.

    Only read or post in this thread when your game is ended and successfully submitted.
     
  2. greatbeyond

    greatbeyond King

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    Thanks for the modifications to this Sid game to make it winnable. It has been awhile since I completed it so I hope that I remember the modifications I thought I saw. It was a very long game, at least for me. Perhaps going for one of the alternative winning conditions would have made it a lot shorter, but once I got going I wanted to conquer the world for my first COTM Sid level win. Though of course I don't remember how many other Sid level games there have been in the 14 years or so I have been playing the GOTM series.

    First off was the addition of the 6 Hoplites, this made the barb problem a little more manageable, though I did have a fortified Hoplite on wooded terrain get killed by a barb warrior with no damage to the warrior. There was a slight glitch with the announcement stating there were no barbarians and the actual raging barbarians, though it didn't take long to discover! Usually raging barbs are more of an impediment to the player than the AI, so I wondered about this setting being chosen, especially at this difficulty. The one plus side was the Aztecs spent a lot of time using their numerous units to track down barb spawning points. It is always interesting to hear the thoughts behind the design decisions. The Hoplites also allowed the escort of settlers despite the presence of lots of wandering barb units.

    The other thing the Hoplites influenced, at least for me, was declaring war on the Aztecs very early (on Sid! what was I thinking, was I crazy?) and at least 3 or 4 times early on to steal workers and keep their expansion to a minimum. The Aztecs seemed to build a lot of spearmen with a smattering of archers thrown in. I used doubled and single Hoplites strategically located to protect and threaten. The one oddity that stood out was that I did not encounter any Jaguar warriors. Did you remove them from the units the Aztecs could build? It would have made a difference confronting a 2 movement unit early on, but I can't say I missed them.

    Another early key was preventing the Aztecs from ever building any swordsmen by parking a Hoplite on top of or nearby their iron. The Aztecs also seemed to prioritize building wonders which also helped to slow their expansion and keep their rapid elimination possible. I am not sure if the presence of another AI on our landmass would have made things better or worse. I can say that the poor Indians on their semi-isolated island never seemed to rise to the challenge and didn't make it much past the start of the medieval age before I conquered them. The reason for doing so was they had saltpeter on their island and there wasn't any on our continent. Was the placement, addition, removal of resources something you purposefully did?

    Once I made contact via galley with the other main landmass, it seemed the AIs there were fairly well balance with the exception of the Arabs who had just a few cities. The Vikings were on top with the Mongols closely behind, then Korea, Rome was a little bigger than Arabia but was on the ropes because of war with Scandinavia. I assume the lack of iron ( only 1 in Arabian lands) was by design, however that didn't keep the Vikings from being able to build Berserkers. I addition, all AIs without iron were able to build modern naval units, riflemen, air units, cavalry, Guerillas, artillery, and infantry.

    I also noted the placement of the volcanoes on the isthmus between Roman and Viking lands and the bulk of their continent. I assume this was deliberate. The one way it benefited me, at least initially after I declared war on the Vikings was that it slowed down their reinforcements enough to allow my beachhead to survive. I wonder also if you created the center area of mountains and volcanoes? I can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if more than 1 AI unit was burnt to cinders by an untimely eruption.

    The Vikings eliminated Rome, then went to war on the Koreans who were at war with the Mongols. I gifted Iron and horses to Korea as it was apparent that the Vikings were on their way to juggernaut status and had to be slowed down. In the meantime I was preparing a large force (70ish) of tanks, artillery, and Infantry in preparation for war with Ragnar.

    Korea was eliminated and after a short peace, Ragnar declared on the Mongols. I again gifted the Mongols iron, rubber, and horses to help keep them alive and wearing down the Viking forces. At this point I made a ROP with Ragnar landed the original force and sent for reinforcements. I declared on Ragnar and took his two original cities. It was a little tense after that as he diverted most of his units back toward my forces. With the help of 40+ artillery I was able to beat back his forces but had to pause and take peace in order to restock and refurbish my units. Ragnar restarted his war with the Mongols and was in danger of eliminating them. I once again declared war and slowly ground down the Viking forces. Taking a brief peace break and getting the crucial city in the midst of the central mountain/volcano territory as a basis for an airfield and subsequent second front. After that it was just a matter of finishing the Vikings off to the point where they just had their 3 tiny islands left. The Mongols were down to 2 tiny cities on the border with Arabia. Instead of taking the time to finish by space I chose to settle for a domination versus conquest win. A key factor in this decision was a very strong Viking capital on the 1 tile island.

    I think I am going to replay this game minus some or all of the Hoplites to see how it plays. Though I am pretty sure I won't be declaring war on the Aztecs very early.
     
  3. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    I'm happy you liked the game and that it was playable. Although I started already in August, I didn't find time to play this game through to the later stages. I changed the design several times. The Hoplites were a result of my experiences of the early game and reflect, I suppose, my preferred playing style. Luckily, you used them quite differently.


    No. That's what "no barbarians" look like on Sid. These were just the extra Barbarians always present on Sid.

    No, I had them in my test game. Perhaps a result of your offensive play? Actually, I did remove a unit for the Aztecs: the Settler. They only ever had their initial three Settlers. I don't think many of you would have survived an AI on the same largish island which wasn't neutered.


    I can't remember looking closely at resources.

    Yes, I had some fun there. Actually, there was a Volcano next to each AI capital as well. The idea here was to make the game shorter and smaller. I also wanted to make the scientific victory conditions possible.
     
  4. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I wondered what you'd done to them; it was pretty clear to me that they were crippled somehow. Giving us the whole continent made the game play very differently than I expected.
     
  5. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    When I noticed that, I was a bit angry at first: many of the key wonders (Lighthouse, GLib, Artemis, Hanging Gardens, Leonardo, iirc) were built in AI capitals, so it was a big luck factor, whether they would be wiped out by a volcano, before I would be able to capture & use them, or not... In the end, however, it did not matter: first of all, none of the AI capitals were wiped out, even though the volcanoes erupted several times! Very strange! Is there an algorithm built-in that prevents capitals from being hit?
    And next, I decided that own research would be quicker, so I ended up using none of the strategies I first thought I would use in this game (like GLib-elevator, Artemis for culture etc...)

    I noticed quite early, that the Aztecs were not able to build settlers, so I didn't bother to fight them early on. I used them as research partner and concentrated on quickly filling the rest of our continent, instead of building units. And once the continent was settled, I started building culture everywhere, the target VC being 100K. Once the core was finished with its culture buildings, I started building up an army of mostly MIs and conquered the three Aztec cities. The first two were razed to get some slaves and avoid any flip problems, the capital (with the Colossus) I kept.

    The time between finishing off the Aztecs and completing Navigation was spend rushing as many libs, temples and universities as possible. Then my first oversea target was India, because of their saltpeter (and because they were the weakest). Then I went for Arabia, because they had 2 or 3 wonders I was interested in: Hanging Gardens, Smith and the Sistine Chapel.

    After that it was back to rushing culture.

    As I was able to trade many of the lower branch techs, I decided to complete the MA and see, what techs the Koreans and me would get. Unfortunately it was Nationalism and Medicine. So I researched Industrialization by hand. Very strangely, the only source of coal on my continent exhausted shortly before I had finished my rail network... :( So I had to give the Romans techs for their spare coal. (And I had to connect it for them, too... :shake:)

    I never switched to Feudalism in this game, because I always got a significant amount of cash from the AI and I already had Nationalism by the time pop-rushing became an interesting option, so I thought, if I stay in Republic, I can use both: cash-rushing and pop-rushing via drafting units. (Pop-rushing via draft is even more effective than pop-rushing, once you have Replaceable Parts, because an Infantry yields 22 shields.)

    When all the towns on the starting continent had all 5 culture buildings (lib, uni, temple, cathedral, colosseum), I decided to finish the Industrial Age and go for the Internet. But it didn't work out: first of all, the Koreans sneak attacked me, which cost me a large gpt deal as well as happiness, so it slowed down the research, and when I finally reached the Modern Age, neither me nor the Koreans got Computer. So I had to research Computer and Miniaturization by hand. The Internet just regained the 2-3 turn I had lost, when I had to gift away a couple of fully completed towns (14cpt each) on the Indian island, that were threatened by a Korean surprise landing. In the end I reached 100K in 1515 AD, the same date that had already been predicted by CivAssist at the beginning of the Industrial Age, when I started the quest for the Internet... So I think with a bit more warfare and cash-rushing instead of the ill-fated research, a 14xx AD date may be possible in this setup?!

    The highlights of this game were:
    1. My very first Curragh survived 6 or 7 turns in a row out on the open sea and met the main continent. This made me assume that another one of the "extra gimmicks" you had promised us, was that Curraghs could safely traverse ocean. So I quickly sent out a second Curragh into the other direction, but it sank on its very first turn... Then I knew, that I had simply been a lucky bastard... :crazyeye:
    2. The Romans founded the city of Cumae right in the middle of 6 volcanoes, and despite many of them erupting several times, Cumae survived until the end of the game...! :eek: It was really frightening at times, when more tiles of the 3x3 square around Cumae were covered in lava than were clean...
     
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  6. Garvarg

    Garvarg Playing with fire

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    You win some, you lose some.
    I wondered why the Aztecs never expanded. Now I know.
    Once I realized they were not expanding towards me, I thought I would try to slow them down with some resource denial. Sent a settler and 4 Hops to settle and take out two colonies for the same resource. This started a war, which brought the Golden age much earlier than I would have wanted. They pillaged some land, took a few shots with archers then headed to the next city. Did not lose any city and an early peace was won.

    Time to expand, research Literature and trade for some other stuff, hoping to steal the Great Library later. Researched and traded till I had Republic,and built an lot of swords to start a war. Taking the Aztec capital I picked up the Great Library and a Great Leader. Build the Forbidden City in the Aztec town by the iron. Researched up to Currency and Construction to build my "Empire" and waited for someone to visit.

    Build knight and boats to prepare to upgrade to Calvary to attack India. No gunpowder here. Send by fleet over to India, land a lone settler, who lands on the only saltpeter I see. Build city, infest land with pikes and knights. Build rush barracks, rush harbor, and poof! Instant army with lots of Elite troops.

    Mongols are the knowledge power house and Rome is taking over the rest of the world............
     
  7. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    What? Maybe I've misunderstood something, but I assure you that I've set Sid to 'no barbarians' and had zero barbarians several times. You can check my Sid 4000 BC saves on record if you like, and you will not find a single barbarian.

    I think your statistic suggests that shield production via the draft might be more comparable to pop-rushing once you have Replaceable Parts. But, don't you have to have a size 7 city to draft, and don't size 7-12 cities grow slower than size 1-6 towns?
     
  8. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Well, growing from 6 to 7 still costs only the usual 20 food (10 with Pyramids), and then you draft, falling back to 6.
    It's a little disadvantage, that you can't draft at smaller sizes, but this is counter-balanced by the fact that you don't need a "chain of intermediate rush-targets" that you need for pop-rushing.

    (What I mean by this: rushing something at size 2, e.g. an 80s Library, works only, if you have 20s, 40s and 60s build targets left, for example an Explorer, Barracks and Granary. So once you are in the industrial age, when there are no more 40s units (LB/MI) and 60s units (Musket), and once you have Pyramids and/or Sun Tsu's (= no Barracks and Granaries available as intermediate projects), you can no longer rush the Lib at small sizes! That means you need to rush it in one go, which requires a minimum city size of 8, as you can rush only 50% of the population in one turn. A draft on the other hand can always be made and then disbanded into any building you like.)
     
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  9. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Then there is a bug in my editor.

    Edit: I've double-checked. In the generate map dialog as well as in the scenario settings on the first tab, COTM136 has "no barbarians". Perhaps it is different when you generate a map in the game as opposed to using the editor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  10. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Maybe my memory is failing me here, but I think that a long time ago I have read something that basically said, when starting a game from a scenario, some of the settings are not taken from the scenario, but from the previous "standard game" that was started by that installation. (Probably those things, that are saved in the ini-file.) Perhaps the barbarian setting is one of these?

    In that case the following procedure would need to be applied to get a no barbarians game:
    1. Start a normal game and choose "no barbarians" in the game settings.
    2. Play the first turn and then save the game.
    3. Quit the game and then load the COTM scenario and start the COTM game.
     
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  11. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Thank you for this hint! I will try it out. However, it seems that this bug does not affect other Barbarian settings: sedentary, restless, raging.

    To all players, sorry for my ineptness and its results. I am just learning how to use the editor.
     
  12. Paul#42

    Paul#42 flyball chaser

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    This was a fun game, thanx for the effort! :banana:
    I totally overestimated the opponents and waited much too long (as always) before I attacked. :wallbash:
    At times I was disappointed with the low resistance (except for the real "resistance" in captured towns that caused some flips...).
    My capital became a four-turn settler-warrior-combo factory quickly and lots of workers and slaves optimized my homeland.
    The Aztecs went down quickly to my some ten swords, providing me with GLH for my naval adventures. :thumbsup:
    My third suicide curragh found the large continent, the pathetic Indians I met way later. They never learned Writing...

    I beelined to literature and build libs in my core for a long tech race...
    I was first to philosophy but my gamble to trade for CoL failed. So I took it for free and researched Republic by hand, delaying my GA, thus the extortion of the Aztecs...
    In 130BC I finally got rid of the Aztecs, killing a redlined archer with a hoplite, starting my GA. :dance:
    I researched to chivalry at max and then invention by lone scientist. I never found out, where the salt was, those Arabs were using. :dubious:
    I built lots of hoplites and warriors and horses for upgrades - but money was short due to enormous upkeep costs of some 200gpt although I had ICSed the north. So I also built knights in my core towns.

    I ship-chained troops over and around 400AD first attacked the Vikings, bribing the Romans. I failed to get Viking one-tile island for peace so they finally moved their capital there and left me with flip risks for the rest of their game. :rolleyes:
    I did not want to wait for marines so I went for domination. :shake:
    Trondheim had Pyramides and ToA, so I stayed away from education to fill those spaces for domination victory. :smug:

    I then went after the Mongols who where about to beat the Romans.
    But I had to sneak attack the Arabs because a pike blocked the choke point on my way to the final Mongol town and I could not stand the flip risks of the just conquered towns.
    I even faced several Ansars but they were no match to my brave hoplites... :smug:
    Three knight armies made short work there, taking Karakorum with Leonardos, Sun Tzu and GW. :hammer:
    Too late to be a game breaker, I think not a single of my cheaper upgrades made it to the battle fields...
    Because the only Iron on the continent was too far away I had upgraded solely on my home continent and I did not care to ship-chain them quickly over but set ships on automove after crossing the ocean, taking four turns longer to the front.

    I never planned where to get the missing tiles the easiest way, so I attacked Romans and Arabs at once - slowing down the progress on both fronts and causing severe war weariness. At times the lux slider was at 80%... :aargh:
    So I finished in 920AD with a decent Jason score. But I'm sure, there was more in it...

    As I stated before, I was way too cautious, so I wonder what victory date those warmongers will come up with... :dubious:

    Barbs: There were several camps but the training was fruitless, I rarely got any promotions...
    Volcanoes: I don't recall any burned town. Pure luck?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  13. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Glad you liked the game! Sorry about the one-tile island, it seems I never learn. I should make myself a checklist.

    And I will make the AI less crippled the next time around. I thought they would come after you on your home continent, but is seems that that never happened.

    But the strong Hoplites seem to have been just right! Next time we'll have Musketmen.
     
  14. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Indeed, it seems to work.
     
  15. supersova_SU

    supersova_SU Warlord

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    Domination
    Game date: 1285 AD
    Firaxis score: 9898
    Jason score: 10040
    Time played: 35:45:00
     
  16. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    unfortunately even with the extra time i did not have the slightest chance to find enough time to finish. should have submitted my unfinished game... but forgot.

    i had played a few more turns, but honestly, the Sid Feeling did not come up, with the home continent settled without any opposition. with the GLH built on my continent, everything looked good for a good game and result, however, all my suicide ships sank until when i had to stop playing. really no time for Civ in my life currently...

    thanks for setting this up.
    t_x
     
  17. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    I'm sorry for that. However, your not finding time to finish contradicts this: How would you ever find time to finish a Sid Sid game?

    Should I try less to make the Sid game of the year easy to play?
     
  18. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i understand you are being ironic, and yes, it is funny indeed. ;)

    but you are right, i wouldn´t be able to finish a Sid Sid game atm. i was not even able to finish a, like, DG Sid game... but, well, i used to finish Sid games in the past. so, trying to give a serious answer to a maybe not so serious question, actually yes, i think that COTM Sid games needn´t be designed so everyone can make them a victory.

    but, most of all, i am happy and grateful that you are keeping this alive, almost single-handedly. even though i only very rarely can participate.

    t_x
     

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