[C3C] COTM157 Hittites Regent -- Discussion and Spoilers

[Green Bear]

4000 BC
My Scout climbs on the gold mountain and sees a cow.

3750 BC
Found Hattusas in the north.
Goody hut gives Ceremonial Burial.
Meet Portugal.

3350 BC
Goody hut gives Warrior Code.

3300 BC
Learn Bronze Working.

3100 BC
Goody hut gives The Wheel.

2950 BC
Goody hut gives a settler.

2900 BC
Found Tarsus.

2670 BC
Found Ugarit.

2590 BC
Discover Masonry.

2510 BC
Found Harran.

1990 BC
Found Hattusha.

1910 BC
Learn Iron Working.
Learn The Wheel.
Let Portugal declare war.

1870 BC
Meet Maya.

1830 BC
Found Tyrana.

1750 BC
Discover Writing.

1625 BC
Meet Rome.

1525 BC
Meet Inca.

1300 BC
Found Aleppo.

1225 BC
Meet Ottomans
Learn Polytheism.

1200 BC
Found Ankuwa.
Found Kadesh.
Peace with Portugal.
Learn Horseback Riding.

1100 BC
Hattusas builds The Pyramids.

1075 BC
Learn Mathematics.

1025 BC
Discover Philosophy.
Discover Monarchy.
Going into Anarchy.

900 BC
Monarchy established.

875 BC
Learn Map Making.

850 BC
Found Adana.
Forbidden Palace available.

730 BC
Meet Byzantines.

670 BC
Discover Literature.

650 BC
Found Hubishna.

590 BC
Found Alaca Huyuk.

550 BC
Learn Code of Laws.
Declare war on Portugal.

410 BC
Peace with Portugal.

330 BC
Declare war on Portugal.
A Three-Man Chariot starts my Golden Age.

310 BC
Portugal destroyed.

230 BC
Found Alalah
Maya declares war.

210 BC
Found Ivriz.

130 BC
Found Kanesh.

110 BC
Hattusas builds The Great Lighthouse.

110 AD
Peace with Maya.

130 AD
Learn The Republic.
Learn Construction.

210 AD
Declare war on Rome.

250 AD
Declare war on the Dutch.

270 AD
Found Karhuyuk.

290 AD
Declare war on Inca.

300 AD
Peace with Rome.

310 AD
Found Karatepe.

380 AD
Declare war on Maya.

390 AD
Found Kummanni.

440 AD
Peace with the Dutch.

450 AD
Declare war on Byzantines.

480 AD
Declare war on Rome.

500 AD
Romans destroyed.

550 AD
Peace with Byzantines.
Learn Currency.
Found Samhua.
Found Yalburt.
Declare war on the Dutch.

580 AD
Declare war on Ottomans.

590 AD
Found Kadna.

610 AD
Maya destroyed.
Dutch destroyed.

640 AD
Found Kultepe.

650 AD
Domination Victory.

 

[Captain_Jack]

A.A.R. Forbidden Palace until Industrial Age

320 A.D. Only now do I encounter the Dutch, and their continent is nearby to the east. My sailors have been delinquent. I soon find the Byzantines also, and both civilizations are primitive. My half of the world holds the power.

610 A.D. The closest and best source of saltpeter is on my continent deep in Portugese territory. The Saltpeter War begins when I declare and invade. Much blood is spilled, but it is mostly antiquated units and I soon get Lagerto and saltpeter. Simultaneously I get Leonardo’s Workshop and mass-upgrade to cavalry. It was touch-and-go. My conquest of the saltpeter was with my last unit and he was redlined. I see that Piu Fredo won without conquering this supply of saltpeter. I wonder how?

720 A.D. Peace with Portugal, regroup,rebuild. Twenty turns later I reinvade after Lagerto flips. This time I take Lisboa and the whole continent. I am secure. I close out the epoch by retaking Shea Stadium on the large continent to my south. Will I be able to hold it?

 

[LaSalle]

Green Bear: Congratulations on an early domination victory. By fighting several AI’s at the same time you were able to conquer territory quickly. On the other hand, my method of fighting the other civ’s one at a time, while successful, took too long.

 

[LaSalle]

Captain Jack: hang in there. You at are in a great position at this point in the game.

 

[Più Freddo]

The closest and best source of saltpeter is on my continent deep in Portugese territory.
[...] I see that Piu Fredo won without conquering this supply of saltpeter. I wonder how?

I think I had already conquered Saltpeter on Dutch or Byzantine territory when I discovered Gunpowder.

I did conquer all of the home continent though.

 

[milr]

Submitted game.
Got a surprise during first few game moves, and more later that I did not expect.
I moved scout to Mtn NE and decided to move settler and worker to better start location.
Continued moving scout N-NW and popped a settler along coast on scout move 6.
Oops, (one or more) 'normal' COTM rules not in effect!
On same scout move, saw Portugal boundary. Moved settler to a better location!
As game progressed, I severely constricted expansion by Portugal.
Settled most available land and raced to Map Making via Philosophy bonus.
Attacked Portugal shortly after they got Lighthouse and quickly ended their Civ.
Decided to go for Space Victory. Fought small battles when attacked.
Fought short battles as game progressed to gain strategic resources as needed.
Got program crashes as I neared victory.
Got around crashes by reducing my excess workers and combat units.
Played this game with Steam V1.22, but have had late game crashes on past games.
Suspect crash problem is memory related.
My replay workarounds likely did not change victory finish date.

 

[Più Freddo]

Decided to go for Space Victory.

Date? Mine was 1285 AD.

 

[Quintillus]

Spoiler to start of Middle Ages

Spoiler :

A regent COTM, this sounds nice and relaxing! I sent my Scout north, saw the cow, and send my worker to the hill; nothing too exciting that way. Considered settling 2N, 1NE, within cow range but not as far as Captain Jack or Green Bear settled. In the end, settled in place and sent my first settler to the cow.

Portugal built a city by the nearby Horses in 3000 BC, early for a regent AI. Their cow must have been helping them. Needless to say, that meant war. I sent a Warrior over, they had no defenses, and the city was razed. They gave me Guimaraes, which would later prove to be by the Iron, for peace. All in all a good start.

The next few millennia were spent colonizing the continent. One of the key decisions was whether I would focus on conquering Portugal, or building up cities and going Republic early and going for science. Barbarians helped make up the decision by encouraging a larger army, and so Portugal's fate was sealed. Three-Man Chariots invaded in the last few centuries of the first millennium BC, and by 50 BC, Lisbon was ours. We'd enter the Middle Ages in 90 AD, having reduced Portugal to one city (by the other Horses), which was facing the Army of Suppiluliumas at its gates.

As of that time, we remain a Despotism, with 18 cities and 18 workers. The largest city is size 6, so our unit support would be low under a Republic. But I suspect we'll swap soon after this war ends - as well as our Golden Age.

Still, that's only a suspicion, as there is some motivation to warmonger. We discovered the island east of us late, and the Dutch colonized it just as our Settlers were boarding a Galley to do the same, so that is a tempting target. And we're at war with the Maya as well. The Maya declared war on Rome, and Rome requested assistance. They were willing to give us Mathematics, so we agreed; Rome peaced five turns later. But we've been pondering establishing a settlement and building a castle in the swamps at the northern end of their continent. The Maya had only just finished Zeus before declaring war on Rome, and the war was not decisive, but now are likely the foremost power in the area. Our presence could serve as an effective deterrent to their expansion, but do we want to invest in that when we could go Space Race and sit back and take it easy?

All in all, not really pursuing any one victory condition, and definitely not a fastest time.

 

[Quintillus]

Spoiler to start of the Industrial Ages (I may have played a few more turns...)

Spoiler :

The Middle Ages started off by taking Portugal's last city. I was still at war with the Maya, and had been debating whether to try to establish a presence on their island. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth the effort, and started focusing my cities on growth - temples, cathedrals, aqueducts, courthouses, and libraries, to boost my unit cap and economy, and hopefully snag some nifty wonders.

This went pretty well. The Inca got the Sistine Chapel and Knights Templar (which I didn't try for), but otherwise we dominated in wonders of the Middle Ages. One unique aspect of this game is I never built a Barracks. In the end I built enough Three-Man Chariots that it probably would have made sense to build a couple, but it was a different way to try playing the game, not building any till Sun Tzu's.

Fast forward to the Middle Middle Ages, and Rome had declared war on the Maya, a questionable life decision. We kept our eye on this and saw the Maya gradually winning, taking Veii, then Ravenna, and eventually Neapolis, creating a Smoke Jaguar ante portas situation outside the walls of Rome. We didn't really want the Maya to have the whole continent, and while we initially declined Rome's request to join, we started shifting our research from the top branch (after getting Astronomy) to the lower branch, and added in Chivalry to get a few Knights. Thus, before Rome could fall, we agreed to enter the war in exchange for Monarchy, which we didn't really need but would end AI requests to sell it to us.

Our initial landing was four Knights and a Chariot. We took the northernmost city and were advancing on the second when a Mayan force of about nine units, plus Spearmen, arrived. Realizing we were overmatched, we retreated via Caravel. But we'd taken out a few units and distracted the Maya from Rome.

Half a dozen turns later, we were back with 9 Knights, and from that point on were able to resupply quickly, and soon upgrade to Cavalry. The Maya sent another force to push us back off the beaches, but this time it was defeated. We'd wind up taking all of the Maya cities, other than Neapolis, which Rome retook. Near the end of the Middle Ages, the Mayan capital of Ravenna fell, and the number of civs was reduced to six.

I paused for awhile here, deciding what to do next. In the end, I decided to go with the role-playing approach, and returned Ravenna and Veii to the Romans, along with all their workers the Maya had captured or enslaved. Rome was the least advanced civilization anyway after centuries of warfare, so if they betrayed me, they would quickly be conquered, and their approval could be helpful for a Diplo victory.

Next on the docket (along with universities, markets, and banks) was letting the Inca know that we didn't appreciate their empty threats for technologies. After a few turns to regroup, we declared war on them, and landed troops on their southeastern tundra lands, brining the Ottomans in as allies in exchange for Spices. We got all of the Fur areas by the end of the Middle Ages, with remarkably smooth process, though some Crusaders appearing on the horizon in halfway decent numbers (9) at the end. Still, it looked to be a clearer path than what we had against the Maya.

Entered the Industrial Age in 1295. Definitely not winning Space Race.

I am leaning towards Diplomatic as a victory. Take out the Inca, and form an alliance of Rome + Byzantium + Me vs The Netherlands, rope in the Ottomans if we can. We'll see though. Could go Domination, could go Space Race, and Constantinople might be a 20K threat; it already has 4 Great Wonders.

 

[Zinad]

20k victory in 1886 AD

Must be 15 years ago since I last uploaded a COTM.

Regent and archipelago map tempted me to go for a 20k victory.
Settled in place. The scout popped a settler (Tarsus), so the capital never produced a settler and produced only wonders and buildings.
I headed for Philosophy to get an early Republic.
I played peaceful, didn't even try to eliminate Portugal on our landmass.
With the tech advance I had always stronger units than the opponents. Portugal declared once and I could defend without problems and was able to take Sagres.

Thanks templar_x for the nice game set up, ecpecially for the strategic recources iron, coal and oil.

 

[Captain_Jack]

I played peaceful, didn't even try to eliminate Portugal on our landmass.

Were you able to trade for the saltpeter with Portugal? I couldn't so I went to war to get it and that always seems to be necessary for me. I'm not usually able to depend on the Ai for a reliable supply of vital resources. I would have prefered to play peacefully like you, but I've almost given up on that hope.

 

[Zinad]

Were you able to trade for the saltpeter with Portugal? I couldn't so I went to war to get it and that always seems to be necessary for me. I'm not usually able to depend on the Ai for a reliable supply of vital resources. I would have prefered to play peacefully like you, but I've almost given up on that hope.

I traded salpeter with the Netherlands at least twice in exchange for a tech. I then immediately ugraded all pikemen to musketmen and trebuchets to cannons and some knights to cavalry. In the later game salpeter has no importance any more.
To get rubber was tricky. I could settle directly on a rubber resource on the Inca landmass between Ottoman cities that were conquered by the Incas. With the Inca ports I had rubber immediately avalible on our landmass and upgraded all pikeman to infantry. This was crucial because at that time I was at war with Portugal.

I dont know if the game set up did work right:
'The normal changes to the Conquests rules apply to this game: Iron locations are fixed, and Workers instead of Settlers can be popped from Goody Huts'

During the game one iron source expired and late in the game a salpeter source turned up in my territory. And I popped a city (Tarsus) from a goody hut.

 

[milr]

'The normal changes to the Conquests rules apply to this game: Iron locations are fixed, anassumd Workers instead of Settlers can be popped from Goody Huts'

Yes, the game setup allowed me to pop a settler. and later removed/relocated an iron source.

I have no idea how Piu Freddo could run the tech tree through a space race and win in 1285 AD! My win came about 500 'years' later, however many turns that would be. Since my submission, I replayed the COTM a few more turns for various victory conditions, and even knocked about a dozen turns off my Space Vic, still long after 1285 AD! Got the GLib early, but it was of very little tech tree help. In my replays I did not try immediately trading/gifting every tech I researched to all other techs as I did not expect much improvement based on the slow tech advances I saw from the AI Civs, and I would not have considered such a strategy in a game where I might be under near constant assault while in a gov't Republic. But surely something like that must have led the way to such an early win.

 

[milr]

Wrote letters to 3K CEO and to Sid Meier about the missing CIV3 in STEAM 'Civilization III Complete", but have had no reply. Will continue to pester them, with next letter accusing them of a 'bait and switch'. I see they have several openings for developers, so maybe I'll offer to work remote for them long enough to address the problem. Doubt though that they would provide access to the portion of source code and make files to produce address the problem!. More of an 'embarrass' them into action ploy. I'll also suggest that they could simply provide two STEAM CIV3 games (CIV3 PTW (v.27 or 29), and CIV3 CONQUEST, and provide them both to current purchasers of STEAM Civilization III Complete to replace the current STEAM offering.

 

[milr]

Oops, the letter was written (properly) to Firaxis CEO, a subsidiary of 3K

 

[Più Freddo]

I have no idea how Piu Freddo could run the tech tree through a space race and win in 1285 AD!

It's all about keeping up 4-turn research. You must have enough cities with enough improvements and roads and citizens early enough and then conquer so many corrupt cities on fertile land that you have got a large pool of Scientists in the later game. You shall build only the science-multiplying Wonders, preferably in one single city: Copernicus's Observatory, Newton's University and SETI Program. You must time your Golden Age and the build of Theory of Evolution. Oftentimes, you'll want to have your Golden Age at the beginning of Industrial Times, when Technology costs take a hike. Or you can have it a bit earlier to help you build Universities (in all core cities) and Copernicus's faster . You can time ToE to give you the last two Technologies of Industrial Times or you can time it to to give you the first two of Modern Times. The first could be a gamble if there are many friendly Scientific Tribes around and you are one as well, then you can hope to trade for Computers and have a pre-build for SETI Program. But then The Internet will come (hopefully) only four turns later. The pre-build for The Internet is crucial! You need those Research Labs in all cities A.S.A.P.! Use Palace as pre-build. Use a spread-sheet to calculate the perfect construction. Normally, you'll have railroads, re-balancing and a Factory, perhaps a Coal Plant, ready so you can gauge the highest SPTs correctly just in time.

In this game, I had the fortune to get The Colossus as I conquered Lisbon, which was a high-commerce city. So I used a Great Leader to build The Forbidden Palace there. I also built SETI Program there using, I think, Universal Suffrage as a partial pre-build. It is a low-priority Wonder. I managed four-turn research pretty much on the limit and had a constant shortage of military units compared to an all-out military game. There are lulls when you pick up the cheap Techs, where you can build Units and fill your coffers with gold after perhaps running on a deficit. After Astronomy you go back to cheaper Techs, and after Refining there are a few cheap ones as well. I also like to bee-line to Replaceable Parts, which is expensive, but which also gives you a few cheaper techs to "rest on" afterwards. Those fast Workers are usually sorely needed to build railroads and re-balance between irrigation and mining and get those last Mountains worked upon. So you partly select Techs based on what you can pull off in four turns at the moment.

Hope this helps, and if you have even better ideas, please tell me!

 

[Più Freddo]

Also, on an island like this, don't underestimate the Commencial Harbors! They add beakers as well!

 

[Lanzelot]

And don't forget: each tech you get from the AI saves 4 turns for you! Therefore

• I sell (or even gift) the AIs all techs I already know. (No need for them to invest their beakers into techs I already know... though on Regent this factor is not really important: in this game, even though I was not playing for science victory (was shooting for 20K, where it is good to have the AI backwards...), I entered the Modern Age while the (surviving) AIs were still in early Middle Age... But on Demigod/Deity, this factor is really important.
• I gift the scientific tribes up into the new age, when I reach it, so I can trade for their freebees (unless an important wonder is at stake, then I might postpone the gift-up a bit).

 

[Quintillus]

I am disgraced! I have suffered an embarrassing defeat!

--------------

February, 1772. The diplomats of the world meet at Hattusas. Mursilis XLIII, constitutional monarch, awaits the triumph of his dynasty's rule over the millennia. Always fighting only just wars, the Hittites have nearly conquered the world in self-defense.

Conquering the Portuguese? The first war was after their theft of horses, and the second was started by the Portuguese.

Conquering the Maya? The Hittites had come to the aid of the defenders, the Romans, and restored cities the Mayans had taken to Rome.

Conquering the Inca? The Inca had been the bullies of the world, demanding free technology from all comers.

Conquering the Byzantines? The Byzantines landed on Hittite land and declared war.

Conquering the Romans? The Romans signed a mutual protection pact with the Byzantines just before the last Byzantine city fell, and declared war on the Hittites, without so much as giving the Hittites a chance of making peace.

Now, the formation of a world government was about to take place, a sign of eternal peace between the Ottomans, Hittites, and Dutch. It was all but a formality. The Ottomans were de facto a vassal of the Hittites, having signed a mutual protection pact, and agreeing not to trade with the Dutch, and being the recipient of many Hittite luxuries.

"The Hittites vote for Mursilis as ruler of the world."

"The Dutch vote for William as ruler of the world."

"The Ottomans vote for William as ruler of the world."

What? How could that be? Did they not realize the benevolence of the Hittites? Were they as great of ingrates as the Romans? Had they forgotten that they were our allies against the Inca, and had gained land in the conflict?

Seventy-one percent of the world's people lived in the Hittite Republic, sixty-four percent of the world's land mass. Hittite technology was the wonder of the world, and the Hittites had recently proclaimed that they hoped to land a man on the moon by the end of the next decade. Not known to the world was that Hittite scientists were also on the brink of splitting the atom. It was from the benevolence of the Hittite heart that they had sought a diplomatic solution, not because there was any real obstacle to Hittite hegemony.

Mursilis XLIII coughed, and whispered to his advisor, "I'm feeling a bit feverish. Tell the Prime Minister that we should behave in a diplomatic manner."

The minister nodded, and Mursilis XLIII exited. As soon as he reached a secure area, he phoned the head of the army.

"Why yes, my lord, with the Prime Minister's approval, we could start redirecting troops from Roman lands to former Incan lands almost right away to address any threat. And yes, that's 8 divisions of Marines we have on the Mayan continent."

Mursilis wrapped up their conversation and made his way back to the palace, envisioning the end of the House of Osman the whole time. They may have denied the Hittites their moment today. But their perfidy would be remembered!

----------------------

The moral of the lesson is when given a choice of victories, never choose Diplomatic, unless perhaps you have an active war, with allies, against the other candidate. I'd thought MPP + Embargo ought to be pretty solid, but it turns out Osman did not think so! Thus, choosing to play in character with the direction of the game, in the end, meant a loss. In retrospect, Space Race may have been a more fitting finish while still in character with the game, and if I remember correctly that Coast counts towards Domination, we would have hit that eventually without war as well (we are 31 tiles below the domination limit).

It's probably my most successful loss ever, though. Could have won by space, domination, conquest... maybe even cultural if I'd been careful not to go over the domination limit. Managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, though! Maybe I'll get the green ambulance as a result.

 

[templar_x]

Managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, though!