COTM16 First Spoiler: Middle Ages, Starting Continent

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by Karasu, Sep 6, 2005.

  1. seven21

    seven21 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Messages:
    19
    Open
    QSC
    6 towns
    12 citizens
    4 workers
    5 warriors
    3 ImPi
    2 curraghs
    3 Barracks
    15 techs

    I was quite pleased to get the Republic slingshot in 1325 BC - things however went downhill from there. Should have realised this was not going to end well when my curragh survived four tuns in open water heading West before sinking one tile from safety.
    I was ahead on tech but then the fateful decision to expand out of my limited base which relied on Med Inf who did well against the Aztecs but could not sustain it. When I turned on the Inca it rapidly became a disaster. Eventually came to the conclusion conquest was not the way to go but then again not sure what is!
     
  2. CKS

    CKS Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    2,745
    Open, barbs fixed, 20K

    Well, my game has been going quite nicely. I settled in place and sent the scout east, finding that lovely 20K site south of the fish. I started on the wheel, which at least let me know about the lack of horses early and gave me some trading material.

    Zimbabwe had no shields, so I pop-rushed a lot. Ulundi was built on turn 24 and the empire expanded at my usual slow rate. I gave in to a couple of demands but I didn't have any wars in the AA.

    I did have barb problems. I lost improvements and some workers. I am happy to report that barbs prefer to kill workers than to pillage towns, as I sacrificed a worker intentionally in hopes that the barb would not go into undefended Ulundi and destroy my half-finished Colossus. I got a warrior there the next turn, so all wasn't lost. I also lost some improvements around Ulundi before the barb moved itself around so it could attack me across a river. With just a single warrior there, I didn't feel like attacking it was a wise choice.

    After the wheel I researched alphabet, writing, CoL, and philosophy, but I lost the race. I then continued with math, literature, and currency. Selling currency brought me into the MA in 270 BC.

    Ulundi built:
    Colossus 1100 BC
    Temple 900 BC
    Statue of Zeus 470 BC
    I was working on the Great Library when I entered the MA. I didn't learn republic and revolt until after this, so my AA buildings are pretty delayed. I pop-rushed the library just before revolting and that worked out nicely.

    It should be obvious that I'm not great at this, but the game has been comfortably mine the whole time. Lately my COTMs have gone well and the GOTMs have been really horrible.
     
  3. Zeepsel

    Zeepsel Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Open *no particular victory condition*

    Well, this is one of those games that went pretty much according to what I usually do(I am pretty much a builder) :( I tried to go for domination early on, but after I saw the bad start I was willing to settle for conquering the mainland first and then see what I can do... I forgot to build any ships early on, but it didn't matter in the end, since the 2nd continent was far away :)

    Here is how it went until the MA:

    3950 Founded Zimbabwe east of starting position, as it didn't really matter where to start in this particular shieldless environment...
    2590 Ulundi founded near the coastline at CxxC, highly productive city which went for Barracks straight away
    2190 Bapedi
    1870 Hlobane
    1325 Isandhlwana, had 2 settlers at this point, 1 went for the ivory
    1325 Intombe
    1075 Mpondo
    1075 Ngome (near the westcoast) At this point I had cut of Inca and Aztec pretty well, so if there was going to be a war, it would have been with me :)
    750 Tugela

    After this I set up a mass attack versus the Aztecs, positioning a lot of swords outside their territory. In 500 BC I decided it was time for them to die, so I declared, moved in the forces and here is what happened:
    490 Tlacopan and Texcoco captured, Atzcapotzalco and Tlaxcala destroyed
    430 Xochicalco captured and got Tzintzuntzen (which was on a small island to the north-west) through a peace deal.
    Regroup and declare again, who cares about reputation anyway...
    330 Tlatelolco captured
    270 Claixtlahuaca captured
    190 Tenochtitlan captured, it had the Pyramids, so that was pretty nice to get some growth and thus more commerce! :king:
    110 Teotihuacan captured, Aztecs defeated

    My research went pretty slow, as I basically went for a lot of swords once I saw the iron sitting in a nice position.

    I got Republic in my golden age, so that pretty much left me with deciding to shut down golden age or go build more improvements, settled for improvements and the Zulu became a Republic when the golden age ended and when I was researching MA tech.

    Since I had a lot of swords, I went for the Inca a few 100 years later(had to move a lot of heavy equipment...) The rest is for the next spoiler, actually finished the game in a weekend :)

    Good things in my game that far:
    - Destroying the Aztecs pretty fast
    - Getting the Pyramids :king:
    - Having a lot of cities(around 20-25 at the beginning of MA), so I could improve them, and improve them fast because of the Pyramids.

    Bad things:
    - No particular victory condition chosen, fast domination was out of the question, so I went for a 'peaceful' way to win ;) But this is by no means a really fast victory.
    - No fast start due to starting position.
     
  4. juballs2001

    juballs2001 The Sultan of Sweat

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2004
    Messages:
    495
    Location:
    Canada
    myself i am going for a 20K victory. basically i hit alot of early wonders and got lucky by getting i believe 2 GL, this really helped in building some wonders the AI was close to, a few middle age wonders and possibly one IA and i could see an early 20K victory for the Zulus!
     
  5. 7Losses

    7Losses Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Well I was thinking... Now what victory condition are people least likely to go for...Ahhhh space victory nobody in their right mind would go for that. So I might have a slim chance at victory.

    Pity it appears quite a few are going for space victories.

    Quick poll, Do you think this is the worst start in any GOTM?
     
  6. Twonky

    Twonky King

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Hannover, Germany
    open class, probably domination as goal

    Scout east, worker to wheat, decide to settle SW. Initial builds are scout and a whipped settler in 3100 bc, which I sent to the northern wheat to deny the Aztecs that location. After that Zimbabwe gets a granary and becomes a 6-turn settler-factory. Expansion is rather slow due to lack of workers, I lost 2 plus a slave to barbs during the QSC-period. :cry:

    Research starts with The Wheel, then goes for the slingshot, which is missed in 1050 bc for two reasons: a) wasting time on The Wheel and b) higher lux-slider due to whipping.

    I´m not sure wheter settling Ulundi north was a good move. It has a high strategic value and is food-rich for sure. Otoh it´s pretty corrupt and hence rather unproductive for town #2. :confused:

    Good luck with the AI: Inca and Aztec go to war in 1200 bc, weakening themselves and letting me expand and build in peace for the time beeing. The Aztecs were particularly unlucky:

    Spoiler Aztec Leader mishap :


    QSC-stats:
    9 towns, 21 citizens, 2 granaries, 112 tiles owned
    1 settler, 4 workers (!), 2 warriors, 1 Impi, 1 curragh
    2 contacts, 2 embassies
    missing AA-techs: construction, currency, republic, literature, polytheism, monarchy

    Setback: Aztecs lose race for Pyramids and are cascaded to MoM in ~600 bc.
    In 490 bc I´m contacted by a overseas nation. In 470 bc I discover the Republic (man, had I only gotten the slingshot!) and use it to trade myself into the MA. Revolt gives 5-turn anarchy.
    I´m gathering swords now to “visit” Monty. Maybe I´ll even upgrade them to MDIs until the war may begin.

    Spoiler Map in 470 bc :
     
  7. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    A town
    I decided to go for my first ever 20K victory. I don't expect it to be a good date, but I hope to learn a lot. I built Ulundi on the river among the hills, but not on the ocean. This meant I couldn't build the Colossus, but I would be able to get more shields (only one ocean (fish) among 21 tiles). Maybe this was a mistake, but I am learning. Researched toward monarchy so I finished:

    Temple ??
    Temple of Artemis 670BC
    Hanging Gardens 250BC
    Library 190BC
    Great Library 130AD

    I revolted after learning Monarchy for 6 turns of anarchy. Unfortuantely, Ulundi would either starve or riot. I decided to let it riot and dang if they didn't destroy my temple!!!!!

    I decided to stay relatively peaceful b/c of the poor starting location to try to keep the tech pace up. I only had one brief war with the Aztecs. I won a battle with an impi to start my GA.

    Another mistake was not going for the Statue of Zues sooner.

    3AA wonders...is that average or pathetic?

    Edit: Possible spoiler info removed.
     
  8. Erudine

    Erudine Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    15
    open. fixed barbs.

    Well. I'm glad to see we're expansionist, with all the huts I found to pop. I spent most of the game wishing we were playing as China.

    Settled one step to the east so I could fit another town on the lake. Ended up sending the first settler to the coast by the fish and the BGs, tho.

    Grabbed the Slingshot, but I forget when. Become a republic, next round the Aztecs attack with 3 warriors. Sets off my golden age. Aztecs didn't do much so I waited till i had Iron hooked up and sent some swordsmen to take their towns they settled in the jungle and desert between our territories. Ended up getting 3 towns for peace. Then I sent my troops south for the Incas, but that war went much worse. I had a terrible time with a town on a hill south of the ivory. I finally took two towns and got a leader, but by this time they'd gotten feudalism. My army of swordsmen and 3 or 4 ancient cavalry were all I had against pikemen, but I pushed on through mounting war unhappiness and eventually wiped them out without learning feudalism myself.

    I had 40 native workers and was paying 70 gpt in unit costs during the war. :( But I got some jungle cleared eventually.

    Worst thing was making an embassy and seeing Incans 1 turn from the Pyramids, but I had traded them Republic that round, so Japan beats them to it while they're in Anarchy! :mad: They cascade to MoM.

    not sure how to win yet. But not space. ;)
     
  9. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    Netherlands
    No, I wouldn't say that. It was only shield-poor, it had good food and commerce. In the beginning I value especially food but commerce too over shields. That's the reason I would say that COTM10 Mongols and GOTM45 Russia had worse starting positions.

    To me it's not the amount of AA wonders you build that's wrong, it is your choice of wonders. The 500 shields you spend on Artemis could have brought you the Oracle and Zeus, bringing you twice the culture. Further I would say: it was probably better to have build at the seaside (Colossus) and you have to somewhat speed up your building efficiency

    Edit:
    spoilerinfo removed
     
  10. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    A town
    I was trying for the Oracle, and had to settle for the ToA when I didn't get it. Perhaps I should have tried for the Colossus and I know more MMing would probably help. I was also torn b/n how many workers to add to the city and how many to have doing improvements. Is there a general rule here?
     
  11. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    Netherlands
    In principle every citizen in the 20K-city should work an improved tile. But when a tile is improved it should be worked. All the way up to size 12. And then you start to think on how to improve the rest of your empire.

    Btw. I added a thought to my previous post.

    Edit:
    After rereading your post there's someting else I like to add. You revolted to Monarchy costing you 6 turns anarchy. In the nearby future you have to revolt to republic (or perhaps democracy), otherwise you won't research fast enough. During anarchy you don't accumulate culture. That means that nearly all the anarchy-turns add to your finish date. So it's not wise (however tempting) to revolt to monarchy in between. Only when being religious it can be considered.
     
  12. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,996
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    Class: Open

    Goal: Fast domination

    Initial moves

    Dumisani the Scout moves E, sees a hill, then SE in order to be able to
    reach that hill in two steps on the next turn. He finds no shield-
    producing tiles except three hills in the east, so we settle in place, take
    notice of a few more tiles and move Worker1 SE to the Wheat. We'll
    have to build Mines in order to increase our shield production.

    Of our seven rivals, only two start with Alphabet: England and
    Carthage. We start researching Alphabet as fast as possible.

    The opening plan calls for first mining the Wheat and then irrigate it later
    when a few Mines have been constructed. We don't build a Granary in
    Zimbabwe. Build orders are:

    Scout
    Worker
    Scout
    Settler
    Warrior
    Settler​

    We continue to build Warrior and Settler pairs and squeeze in a (cheap)
    Barracks in 1550 BC in order to let the city grow in size.

    Our plan is to build no Impis, but trigger the Golden Age much later using
    the Statue of Zeus and/or the Great Lighthouse in some suitable
    combination.

    Expansion, sort of

    We soon meet the Inca and the Aztecs and then found three cities:

    2550 BC Ulundi
    2070 BC Bapedi
    1450 BC Isandhlwana​

    Our three Scouts don't find a single Goody Hut. They succumb to Barbarians
    or are disbanded after mapping the home continent. We discover Philosophy
    in 1325 BC, get The Republic as a gift and revolt.

    First Incan War 1250 BC -- 710 BC

    In 1250 BC, the Inca demand The Republic, and upon our refusal to comply,
    they declare war on us. We are in Anarchy and don't expect to be in full
    control of our cities for another two turns. Since it appears there are no
    horses on our continent and it is fairly small and little inhabited, and we
    have Ivory, we decide to trigger our Golden Age towards the end of this
    hopefully short war in order to be able to build The Statue of Zeus faster.
    If we can survive the initial onslaught, we should stand a good chance to
    win the war, since we will in a few turns have access to Iron. We start
    building a couple of Impi.

    Of course the map was laid out for massive use of Impis, but there you are.

    We establish the Zulu Republic in 1200 BC.

    Quick Start Challenge Results

    4 towns
    16 citizens
    1 settler
    3 workers
    1 warrior
    2 archers
    5 swordsmen
    1 impi​
    Researching Mathematics. At war with Inca.

    The End of the Ancient Age

    730 BC Trigger the Golden Age
    710 BC Meet the Carthaginians. Peace with Inca.
    650 BC Enter the Middle Ages​
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Shigella

    Shigella Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2004
    Messages:
    60
    Barbs Fixed

    I had some spare time and a long weekend after finishing GOTM 46, so decided to try out Conquests. Other than playing around with a couple of tiny conquests, I've never played a game of C3C until now.

    Decided to put Shaka in Space to maximize my learning opportunity in this game. (@ Redbad - we seem to be channeling each other's chosen victory conditions, as this is three in a row!)

    Not much to report in the AA that hasn't been said already.

    The Good:
    1. Got the slingshot in 1150 BC after studying Alph, Writ, CofL and Phil. The date is a little later than others because my opening settler moved a step before founding and I went for a rather loose build.

    2. Entered the MA in 630 BC - not too shabby, but tech research decisions toward the end of the AA were not optimal.

    3. Its a peaceful continent so far and the Aztecs and Inca are helping the tech pace quite nicely.

    4. Holding on to my GA for now.

    The Bad:
    1. Starting moves were scout 2 E and worker to wheat. This revealed little info of any use. Decided to move settler SW to the "coast" to have a look around. Didn't see any benefit to moving the settler any farther, so my capital is lakefront property. Actually, this really didn't cost me much.

    2. Foolishly lost a settler to a barb horse in 1150 BC. I learned the hard way that barb horses get to attack on the same turn they are spawned by a camp.

    3. I didn't get a real good jump on building the SofZ (hearing about how resource-poor C3C can be, I assume I have a monopoly on Ivory).

    BTW - Some of this discussion about off-continent resources and wonder builds is a tad spoilerish.

    Lots of marsh and jungle near home on this map - I was half-tempted to start naming towns after US coastal cities recently reclaimed by the swamp.

    A few notes to increase Redbad's confidence: ;)
    1. Inspired by the discussion in the other thread about the difficulty of getting a SS award with a high Jason score, I decided to give that a try. The basic plan is to kill any neighbors who aren't contributing to my economy or to the overall tech pace. This approach is certain to delay a launch, but the question is - by how much?

    2. I completely shut off science early in the MA, again. This seems to be a recurring pattern in my recent games.
     
  14. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    A town
    @Redbad: Thanks a lot for all the advice.


     
  15. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Are you sure :confused: It is what happend to Zelda's Man in the AA.
     
  16. Shigella

    Shigella Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2004
    Messages:
    60
    Its not a major spoiler, but....

    If I had read the spoiler thread immediately upon entering the Middle Ages, I probably would have re-evaluated certain assumptions I was making .......

    I was already well into the Industrial Age when the AA spoiler opened, so it didn't have any bearing on my situation. That might not be the case for the late starters.
     
  17. AdHHH

    AdHHH Chief Of The Infidels

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Messages:
    252
    I'm a borderline Prince/Monarch player so started with the bonuses. I settled 1 SW and settled my 2nd and 3rd cities down the river, before settling over the Ivory. I also failed to get SoZ (not knowing about the lack of Horses). Suicide galleys were terrible in this game, but I eventually managed to get across, and this kept me as a tech leader for all of the AA. I had massive problems with the 2 neighbours; one sneak attacked me, so I got the other as an ally, but in the next turn my ally changed his mind and attacked me! The position of Zululand between the two aggressive AIs is hardly helpful, but I managed Republic slingshot easily, and having contacted all the other Civs I breezed through the tech tree. I should've start arming quicker, but once Id decided to build MI for use against one of my enemies it had already decided that I was for the chop. Between the failed galleys, the quick land-grabbing rival Civs and the alliance-breaking I've been very frustrated by this COTM game, but I'm glad at least that I'm not alone.
     
  18. Felton

    Felton Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Messages:
    16
    I got frustrated after a civ on the other continent built the statue of Zuess, which I thought was safe to build in my capitol after ensuring the aztecs and incans had no ivory. So when Incas demanded some cash I refused because I was in an ornary mood, then had to fight them and the Aztecs, who surprised attacked me. I didnt really gain much ground fighting two opponents that both outnumbered me. I'll win the game, I believe, if I continue--still, isnt ivory supposed to appear on only one continent? i may just quit this one.
     
  19. 7Losses

    7Losses Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    You guys think losing the SofZ is bad to someone on the other continent? How about losing it to the Aztecs! I traded them ivory, the very next turn a wonder cascade allowed the Aztecs to build the SofZ, talk about miserable :( timing.

    By the time I took out the Aztec capitol I almost had mettalurgy so I think I got 1 ancient Cav.

    As for the horrible starting position I wasn't talking about the immediate start I was talking about the masses of jungle, swamp and marsh around.
     
  20. Redbad

    Redbad should have shaved

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    811
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Oh man, 7losses, that's truly horrible.

    I must say, the frustration I felt in the first 2 era's of this game is more then compensated by sniffering over these setbacks and horrors of others posted here.

    If there was a Nobelprice for evilness Karasu could be nominated. Come to think of it, the whole gotm-team could be nominated. It must be what living on an island does to people.
     

Share This Page