COTM56 - First Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by civ_steve, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Location:
    formerly Santa Clarita, California

    COTM 56 First Spoiler - the Ancient Age!



    Reading Requirements
    1. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

    Posting Restrictions
    • Please be discreet about AI locations; however, feel free to discuss contacts and trades.
    • No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
    • No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
    • Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

    My impression from setting up this map was that it would be pretty crowded. Was that your impression too, or were you able to do much expansion early on? How big is your empire at this point? Anyone trying for an AA conquest? (Just wondering) Any issues so far, and what are your plans going forward?
     
  2. tao

    tao Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,831
    Location:
    Germany
    Despite not giving a 4 turn settler factory, it was a generous starting position. I settled in place, built some jags, a settler, and a granary. The wheat town also got a granary, the other settlements got barracks.

    Seeing how slow the AI was, I switched to a builders game and started the Pyramids in my capitol.

    Since I don't like any microplanning or even spreadsheeting (and was building Pyramids), the Aztecs had only 1 city and 6 towns with 26 pop in 1000bc.

    Research was straight towards republic slingshot, which happened 1400bc. Middle Ages started about 925, iirc.

    Aztecs got all but one contact, 2 luxuries, iron and horses. All well set to expand in the next age.
     
  3. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,891
    Location:
    Ohio
    I moved around for two turns scouting and then finally settled so that I had 3 hills and one mountain. I built two jags and then a settler. No granary. My second city trained nothing but workers for a while, while my jags picked up a few contacts and fended off some barbies and got some extra gold. Even though I did this, it didn't really feel all that crowded. I did manage The Republic slingshot, but someone (don't remember who) made a demand or something and declared on me a few turns before, and I used a jag to fend off a unit triggering a despotic golden age. I think then after that I wanted to finish The Great Library off, as I think I had traded Literature or something, before revolting to The Republic.

    No granary in the capital... nothing but workers in the second city for a while, what gives? Well, I'll add that *not* having SGLs available definitely changed my priorities in this one, and not in a way I've seemed to like. Thing is, I don't really like slugfests with infrantry class units... it just feels too slow for me, and even with some nice artillery I suffered more losses than I expect I would have with faster units. Maybe I should have tried with horseman, but I don't know if that would work better for what I wanted here, since a 5/5 elite horseman probably loses more than a 5/5 sword, so I don't believe that would have worked out faster. So, I don't know if I'll finish this. I don't know when I entered the middle ages, but if I didn't give enough hints the run-down up to about then goes...

    Palace-3900 BC
    The Oracle-1600 BC
    The Pyramids-1125 BC
    Museum of Mausollos-950 BC
    The Great Library-610 BC
    Library-450 BC
    Temple-430 BC
     
  4. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Open, going for 20K culture in capital.

    Worker to mountain to reveal more tiles, settler SW to get one more bg in radius.
    Capital founded in 3950 BC. Build order: granary (3200), JW (for exploration), settler, settler, then culture.

    Research was as usual ASAP to Republic: Alphabet (3000), Writing (2190), CoL (1700), Philosophy-> The Republic (1500).

    Contacts weren't fast as I would have liked: Inca met in 3000 ; 2850 Portugal; 2590 France; 1550 America; England 1425; Germany (1325), Maya, Mongols (1300), Russia(900).

    Some key events:

    3200 granary completes in capital;

    2670 2nd town founded near wheat to produce nothing but workers to get culture city up and running;

    2510 buy slave from France for an outdated tech;

    2430 3rd town founded north in the hills to produce workers too;

    2270 spot some ivory in French territory, this will be essential for building SoZ;

    2110 worker from Portugal for gold,
    2 AI's got Writing;

    1750 capital reaches size 7, join 5 workers to get it to size 12;

    1650 4th town;

    1625 worker from Inca for an outdated tech;

    1575 Inca demands, I refuse and I'm getting War Happinness;

    1550 sign America vs Inca;

    1500 Republic learned, revolt and get 5 turn anarchy;

    1375 Republic established;
    barely rush temple, had to borrow gold and disband 2 warriors;
    Capital producing 27 shields per turn

    1250 5th town

    1125 6th town

    1100 Jag Warrior wins against Incan archer and we are in GA!!;
    Capital producing nice 40 shields in GA.

    QSC: 6 settlements, 27 population, 2 settlers, 9 workers and 3 jags;
    8 contacts, just signed peace with Inca since their archer dangerously approached my towns

    After founding Republic research Literature (1225), Construction (975), trade for all other techs on the way. Some AI's learn Currency in 900, trade for it and enter Middle Ages.

    Culture builds:

    3950 Palace
    1525 The Pyramids
    1375 Temple
    1075 The Oracle
    1050 Library
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Sima Qian

    Sima Qian 太史令

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    730
    Hmm... I somehow get the impression that the GOTM staff designed this map to foil my usual strategy. Other players may appreciate the central starting location, I did not.

    My capital was founded in 3500 BC. I don't think I can disclose where, for fear of spoilers, but I'm willing to believe that it was a decent 20k location nevertheless. With several players going for 20k from the start though, I'm not expecting any kind of competitive finish here.

    2750 BC - Temple
    1675 BC - Colossus
    730 BC - Great Library
    410 BC - Maosoleum
    110 BC - Middle Ages, Great Lighthouse due in 7 turns, 1067 culture (20cpt)
     
  6. eldar

    eldar ChiefTank

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,244
    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Well well, a whole truckload of 20K attempts. Here's mine so far:

    Entered the MA in 490BC. I would've pulled off the Republic slingshot, but selected my next research (Lit) *before* getting the free tech so got Lit as my free tech not Republic!! However this was a blessing in disguise, giving me the GLib pre-1000BC and not denting my progress too much. I was also able to keep out of an early GA, fighting against demanding AIs with archers and swords.

    Culture:
    4000BC: Palace
    3150BC: Temple
    1650BC: Oracle
    1075BC: Great Library
    975BC: Library
    490BC: Pyramids

    I was able to trade for Monotheism from Russia, Germany got Feudalism and of course would not trade.
     
  7. Racinante

    Racinante Dragon

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Collierville, Tennessee, USA
    This will be my first game of the month, and I chose the predator start.

    I moved my settler SE to the Furs on the river and founded my capitol and met the Incans same turn. Here is a timeline of my trip through the ancient ages:

    3000 Meet the English and complete Bronze Working next turn.
    2750 Declare war on English with (woo hoo) two archers, both of which sacrifice themselves on the axes of English warriors.
    2630 Meet Portugal
    2510 Found Teotihuacan on river
    2430 Meet the Mongols
    2390 English counterattack and Elizabeth loses one warrior attacking Teotihuacan.
    2310 English advance on capitol. I sue for peace. Elizabeth gives Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial for 24 gp and a peace treaty. :eek:
    1990 Tlaxelolco founded on a river
    1830 Texcoco founded on a river
    1790 Meet the Mayans
    1700 Trade with English, gain Masonry, the Wheel, & 6gp for Writing and Iron Working. Trade with America gain Mysticism for Writing.
    1650 Inca demands tribute of 13gp (granted).
    1500 Researched Philosophy and gained Polytheism. Trade Philosopy to Incans for Mathematics and 40 gp and to the Mayans for Horseback Riding & 21 pg.
    1425 Found Tlaxcala on river
    1350 Trade with England, Horseback Riding for worker and 15 gp. Trade with Russia same for worker and 13 gp.
    1250 Portugal demands tribute 23 gp (granted)
    1200 Mongols demand tribute Philosophy (grrrrr.... granted) Time to build the army and wage some war
    1150 Researched CoL and trade to Maya for Literature, Map Making, and 45 gp
    1100 Calixtlahuaca founded on a river (city #6)
    1050 Trade Portugal CoL for 53 gp, trade Map Making to Mongols for 36 gp (grabbing all the gold I can)
    1000 Xochicalco founded (first town not on river)
    850 Tlacopan founded
    750 Germans declare war on me (his archer vs spearman and swordsmen)
    610 Trade Incans Currency for Monarchy and 50 gp. Finish Construction to end the Ancient Age, still a Despot without Republic

    I have met 8 of the 11 rivals and am at war with Germany as of the end of the Ancient Age. I am working on pre-builds for both Sun Tzu's and Knight's Templar, but I have not found any horses yet (none of the 8 rivals have horses connected yet either). I plan to revolt once I acquire Feudalism. Haven't really decided on a win strategy, but it will probably be conquest or domination (yes, I may wimp out...).
     
  8. Kulko

    Kulko Innocent Bystander

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,341
    Location:
    Vienna
    Plans
    Moved Worker to mountain finding just or bgs
    Settle in Space
    Build Wealth - JagW - JagW - Granary - Settler
    Going for conquest


    Events:
    1550BC Russia demands CoL and decares.
    1475BC 6 turn anarchy.
    825BC Trick Inca into declaring War
    800 BC GA by killing a russian Archer
    550 BC reduce Inca to OCC and make peace for Map Making.

    Tech
    3350BC CB by Goody Hut
    3250BC Alpha Trade from England (Rest of Alpha + 10 gp for WC)
    3150BC Masonry + BW Trades from England and Inca
    2310BC Iron Working Trade from Mongol
    2150BC Writing
    1870BC Wheel Trade from Maya
    1590BC CoL
    1475BC Philo + Republic
    1400BC Math + HBR from Trades
    1125BC Lit
    0975BC Poly from Trade
    ??? Currency
    ??? Construction from Trade
    0550BC MM from Peace Deal


    Cities
    2590BC Teotihuacan by the Wheat
    2190BC Tlatelolco
    1870BC Texcoco next to Iron
    1700BC Tlaxcala
    1550BC Calixlahuaca
    1450BC Texcoco
    1400BC Tlacopan
    1175BC Atzcapotzalco
    1125BC Tzintzuntzen
    ...

    Contacts
    3250BC England
    3150BC Inca
    2850BC Russia
    2750BC Maya
    2550BC Mongol
    2510BC Spain
    1910BC Portugal
    1830BC America
    1790BC Germany
    1450BC France
     
  9. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,262
    What the hell is this, a 20k convention? Well, I'm in the right place at least. Went for the predator start.

    Took the same first-turn start as Ignas, moving worker to mountain and settler SW. I built two jags, then a turn of wealth, planning a settler. Set research to Masonry at maximum.

    Met Inca in 3250 BC; they were up 4 techs on me already. They also had a very inviting worker irrigating their flood plains. In 3200 BC, I stepped out of their radius, declared war, and took their worker with my jag. An American scout was next to the worker; I traded WC + 7g for CB and the remains of Masonry. Rather than a settler, I switched immediately to the Pyramids, planning (foolishly?) to take Cuzco as my second city.

    In 3150 BC, my jag took a shot at Cuzco (guarded by a warrior) and won, triggering the insanely early GA. Unfortunately, there was a second warrior inside. However, my other jag was on the way (having popped a warrior from the hut to the north of the capital).

    My 2/3 jag took a poke at the other warrior inside Cuzco, but retreated immediately. He healed while his partner in crime approached. Meanwhile, the Incans sent two warriors after my first jag. Silly Incans. Jags are faster than you. While the warriors watched helplessly, both jags ran to the south of Cuzco. The next turn, 2800 BC, my first jag ran up to attack the spear (ack!) in Cuzco. Amazingly, it won while losing only 1 hp, and I took Cuzco and the settler inside for two slaves. The Incans had another city I could see off to the west--but my work was done. A turn later, as their warriors came home, I made peace for their 19 gold and another slave. That's 4 slaves in all, and a second city--not bad work if you can get it! With two slaves basically at home, and two more roading their way back from Cuzco, I merged my original worker into the capital.

    While that was going on, I met a Portugese scout in 3000 BC. (Yes, I'd say this was crowded!). Traded CB + WC for Pottery + 45g.

    Met an English warrior in 2550 BC; traded CB + WC for Alpha + 25g. Met the Mongols in 2470; they had 1 gold and no techs for me.

    Somewhere shortly after that (my notes don't say) I traded for Mysticism from someone (Portugal), and swapped to the Oracle.

    The Oracle completed in 2070 BC, and with my two slaves working on the plains furs for chops, a temple was relatively soon to follow.

    1950: Cuzco completes a settler, who heads back for home to settle near the FP wheat. I complete Writing.

    1910: Temple in, Pyramids next.

    1830: Mongols have a slave for trade; only thing I have to give is Writing. Fortunately, they throw in IW + Wheel, so it's not a total loss!

    1550: With barbs milling about, I settle Teotihuacan 3SE of the capital, next to the flood plains. It'll churn out a couple of workers to merge in the capital.

    1475: CoL in.

    1300: Philo (and Republic) in. Do not revolt.

    1225: Found Tlateloco 4NW of capital, next to iron mountain.

    1150: Pyramids complete. Revolt, draw 3 turn anarchy.

    1075: Round of tech sales: CoL to Inca for HBR + 75g, to England for Math + 31g, and HBR + Writing + Math to Maya for Poly + worker + 98g.

    1075: Now in Republic.

    1025: Literature in. Buy library in Tenochtitlan. Start on Monarchy.

    1000: QSC stats...

    4 cities, 20 total population
    2 jags, 1 warrior, 6 slaves
    3 furs, incense
    Capital: Oracle (2070 BC), temple (1910 BC), Pyramids (1150 BC), library (1025 BC), 19 cpt. Currently at 23 spt (working on a couple of hills!), GLib in 18 (prebuild for Gardens?).
    76 gold.
    Monarchy in 10, 80%, -2 gpt. All AA techs in except MM, Currency, Construction, Monarchy.

    950: I vacate Tlateloco, barb horse kills some people. Better that than have the capital (guarded by my conscript warrior) attacked.

    900: Dutch finish Colossus.

    850: France says yo. Found Texcoco near Cuzco. Take barb encampment to east of my area, 25g. Embassy France, they have ivory, building SoZ due in 16. Can I snag ivory before that? Hmm.

    825: Put Tenochtitlan on starvation diet to get GLib in 9 instead of 10.

    800: Undo starvation diet, decide to take MoM now.

    IBT: Maya demand Philo, I tell them no, they declare.

    775: MoM in, GLib in 16 at 25 spt. Say yo to Germany on my way to explore France.

    750: Monarchy in, lux to 10%, research off. Philo to America for slave + 30g. No way I can make France in time with a road, unfortunately, so nix that idea.

    690: Settler heading south from Teotihuacan spots barb camp across ocean. Ack.

    650: Mayan JT moves onto the incense at Cuzco.

    630: Pillages incense.

    610: I make peace with Maya, giving them 180g. Swap capital to Hanging Gardens since America started that.

    590: Tlateloco riots, duh.

    570: Cuzco pops worker to road incense again.

    550: Hanging Gardens in; GLib next. France completes SoZ.

    510: America and Portugal enter middle ages. Trade Portugal Monarchy for Currency and 56g. Trade England currency for MM + 64g. Trade France Currency and Monarchy for Construction + 82g. Swap Tenochtitlan to market, buy it for 300g, swap to Colosseum.

    490: Colosseum in, swap to GLib (again).

    So, 1 turn into the middle ages, the capital is at 29 cpt, with the GLib coming soon.
     
  10. Nata

    Nata Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    180
    Location:
    Boston, USA
    Hee, look at all 20K plays here. :)

    But how about 100K? The settings are so good for this game, and though I never ever tried it before, I decided that that's the time.

    I even thought to do AA 100K, and probably would have pulled it, but then decided to go for Monotheism and Feudalism, reaching MA very late - about 300AD.

    Key AA events:

    Beeline to Monarchy achieved in 1550BC. Stayed Monarchy for entire game - didn't want to lose culture turns while switching to Feudalism (probably bad move, and probably should have gone for Feudalism quicker, before I got so many towns).
    ToA in the capital: 750BC, helped by early GA.
    HG in the capital: 450BC, to keep the continet happy.
    Inca, Maya, Germany destroyed.
     
  11. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Not bad, DWetzel, not bad :). Very early Oracle.

    But the bad thing is that your tech pace is too slow and GA was too early.
     
  12. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,262
    Agreed on the GA. That's the downside to this plan, obviously. No purty 40 spt wonder building with a "real" GA. That will clearly come back to bite me to some degree--but the huge benefit to the early population in the capital (merge worker instead of popping a settler) seems to have mostly made up for it. I'm sure I'll lose some ground in the middle ages due to that.

    The tech pace, while far from breakneck, has been fast enough. That's probably about all I can say before the second spoiler, though.
     
  13. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    Lithuania
    The key to fast 20K is getting Shake's Theater ASAP. It increases production, commerce and of course produces 8 cpt so you need fast research. You entered MA pretty late - in 490 BC so I assume you didn't get it very fast.
     
  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,891
    Location:
    Ohio
    I've finished 20k games by 1550 AD with Colossus golden ages (about 2070 BCish). The ultra-early GA got him the Oracle earlier, so he has more culture coming in early... *and* it gets to the 1000 year bonus earlier also. I'd much rather have a GA in 3000 BC and get a wonder like The Oracle in faster than have one at 1000 BC and get several wonders in faster myself for a 20k game. With the BGs around that site, you might not lose all too many shields with the earlier GA.

    Getting Shake's fast can help at a level like this. But, when the AIs move faster in the tech pace getting up there too soon might mean you miss Cope's. Also, if you have a coastal start (which is *not* the game here), Shake's might not improve your production all too much. I have a 1525 AD 20k finish where I didn't get the Shake's unitl 720 AD with a 25 spt turn at size 12, 3 cow start. On the same level and map type I have a 1600 AD 20k finish where I got the Shake's in 610 AD with a 4 cow and 27spt at size 12. The first one had a Temple of Artemis SGL... but there's more to it than that. More details here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296795
     
  15. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    Lithuania
    ? Regent AI's lag in techs, so no risk on this level if you don't give away techs easily.

    By saying fast Shake's I mean late BC's, early AD's.

    I prefer GA early in Republic so no shields get wasted
     
  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,891
    Location:
    Ohio
    I agree about no worry about the AIs getting Cope's to Astronomy here, but my point still stands that Shake's doesn't really work as the key to this.... there exist too many other factors. Killercane's Tiny Aztec Deity game had Shake's in 340 AD and he had his golden age in 3150 BC. He didn't appear to have early SGLs. He finished in 1485 AD. Granted we didn't have production here like any of the aforementioned games, but I think DWetzel had the right idea. The despotic golden age doesn't waste shields for this (1000 BC despotic GA when you can revolt to The Republic in 3 turns... now that seems like a waste). If it comes early enough, it gives you more culture earlier. Maybe DWetzel should have put The Great Library in before The Hanging Gardens and researched in the middle ages sooner, but maybe not. Almost all of the ancient age wonders will produce as much or more culture per turn than any wonders built earlier because of Shake's. And they'll produce culture earlier. The Museum of Mausollos produces as much culture per turn as Cope's and more than Smith's. The Hanging Gardens outproduces Bach's and Sistine in terms of culture per turn. Even the expensive looking Temple of Artemis outproduces Bach's and Sistine's, and even if you build Newton's in 310 AD... it takes longer to get to 1310 AD than it does to get from 750 BC to 250 AD, and you don't produce as much culture during that time. His capital could still get sacked though, and there's the Heroic Epic.
     
  17. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    Lithuania
    I mean mined bg produces 2 spt normally, in despotic GA it produces the same 2 spt because of despotic penalty.

    And yes, I agree that the faster you get GA the better, but particularly in this game DWetzel got it too soon (town wasn't optimized for production: not all land improved around and town not size 12).
     
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,891
    Location:
    Ohio
    So what? He had culture accumlating faster and bulidings heading towards the double culture bonus faster here. He had the fastest build on The Oracle in the reports (so far at least), so he has more turns of 8 culture per turn from it. Unless I misread his report, other than the jaguar warriors, his shields have gone to culture... and his capital has never shrunk in size. Killercane's captial surely wasn't optimized for production, didn't have its town at size 12, nor had all of his tiles improved. If you can get more culture in earlier, that hardly matters at all, because you accumulate culture quicker and you get to the 1000 year bonus quicker (so you accumulate culture quicker... that's basically all the matters... you can get more MGLs in Vanilla than SGLs in Conquests, but you can't get them as fast).

    Maybe Eldar will take the 20k position in this gauntlet since he had an early temple build and a nice early Great Library build. But, since Dwetzel had the Hanging Gardens, the little library, and the Museum of Mausollos earlier... I have a feeling he'll take the 20k in this one. We will see.
     
  19. DWetzel

    DWetzel Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,262
    Either way, should be a fun second spoiler thread! :)
     
  20. Neo666

    Neo666 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    31
    Looks like this starting location screamed 20K to everyone but me, to me it looked like a nice pre BC militairy finish challenge! Probably not very easy to manage but not impossible, that depends on if we are surrounded by other civs or not (the more centered we are the better chance of a BC finish). So on 2 the game.

    Settled in place as I didn't see a food-bonus anywhere. First building order was; Jag, Jag (both went scouting), granary, settler, worker. After that a mix of jags, settlers and workers until I discovered the Republic.

    Both jags went scouting, the first one went north and met the English pretty early whom had Alpha but didn't want to trade it. So I put science on 10% to accumulate cash to buy it which I did in 3500BC, after that went I went for the Republic slingshot ASAP.

    By 2950BC I had contacts with Maya, Inca, England and Portugal. I was already in war with Portugal as I saw a worker wondering around and figured Portugal was far enough to not be a threat for my early expansion.

    I discovered writing in 2390BC, by that time I also made contact with Russia and America and traded for BW, the Wheel, masonry, CB and Mysticism. My second city (located south-east near the wheat) was halfway its granary as the city was destined to be a 4-turn settler factory.

    My third city was founded north-west near the other wheat in 2110BC and also started on a granary (lots of land to be settled!). Thanks to some trading I had control over 4 slaves to work my lands.

    When 1790BC came around I had just discoverd CoL and had contacts with all but 1 civ and the outline of the map was already pretty clear; it was looking very good for an early domination victory!!!

    I completed the slingshot in 1600BC and revolted. The republic was established in 1550BC after a nice 2 turn anarchy!!

    I reached the Middle Ages in 925BC with little extra help beyond the early stages from the 10 other known civs and was preparing for my first real war.

    1000BC stats
    12 cities
    41 population
    369 gold
    119 land
    24 workers (5 slaves)
    1 settler
    7 horsemen
    10 jags

    Techs; all but Monarchy and Construction (I popped Literature).
    Luxuries; incense and furs
    Resources; horses
     

Share This Page