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COTM61 - First Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by civ_steve, Jun 7, 2009.

  1. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Location:
    formerly Santa Clarita, California

    COTM 61 First Spoiler - the Ancient Age!



    Reading Requirements
    1. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

    Posting Restrictions
    • Please be discreet about AI locations; however, feel free to discuss contacts and trades.
    • No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
    • No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
    • Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

    I know some of you were pretty concerned about the raging barbarians; I hope the smaller size of your starting landmass greatly reduced the impact that the barbarian setting might have! How is your game going? You don't have any other AI on your starting landmass, and they can't build galleys, so your homelands are pretty safe; how many contacts have you made and how are the deity level AI doing? Are you setting things up to use your Berzerks? Or are you planning on a more peaceful approach? (What? As the VIKINGS!? :) )
     
  2. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,315
    Location:
    Sweden
    Open (Couldn't resist the free curragh)

    Techs:
    CB (France 3850)---
    Pottery (Celts 3500)---
    BW (France)---
    Mysticism (Maya 2750)---
    Masonry (France 2750)---
    Bronze (Celts 2750)---
    The Wheel (Celts, 2670)---
    Writing (2350)---
    Iron W (Celts 1950)---
    HB (France 1910)---
    Philosophy (1750BC)---
    Polytheism (Celts 1750)---
    Math (Maya 1750)---
    Monarchy (Slingshot 1750)---
    Literature(?)---
    Currency,850BC---
    CoL (Maya,850)---
    Construction (Inca,850)---
    MM (France,850BC)---ENTER MIDDLE AGES.

    Noteworthy Dates

    4000 - First move is worker to cow. Curragh goes north.
    Settler goes SW for extra trade (4 total) on river.
    3950 - Found Trondheim. It builds two warriors then starts the granary. The worker improves the nearest tiles first, bearing in mind that there are raging barbs around. But for some reason the warriors never have to step out of their Military Police detail in Trondheim...

    2800 - Granary finished.

    2600 - Producing first settler.
    2390 - This date I meet my first barb and finally remember to add NoAIPatrol=0 to conquests.ini! Sorry! I've been away from COTM too long!

    2290 - France demand Writing and declare war! Nice, war happiness!

    1950 - With 5-6 turns to philosophy, we let Writing go.

    1750 - We discover Philosophy. We trade Polytheism from Celts for HB,Philosophy,263g.
    We trade Math+16 gold from Maya for Polytheism and Philosophy. We sell Math to Celts for 272 gold. We discover Monarchy. Revolt - 5 turns.

    1725 - Rerolled to 4 (which I believe means the same actual time in anarchy as without the reroll. Does the reroll thing even work in C3C? I've forgotten.)

    1500 - Maya and Celts declare war over Monarchy. War happiness, war happiness, nice, nice.

    1100 - Allied France against the Celts (tied to peace treaty) hoping that France will sign for peace with Celts and give me more war happiness. But after 20 turns they just request that I resign for peace (without the alliance) on the interturn. I should of course have renewed the same deal the turn before.

    975 - Germany declared war.

    875 - Popped a warrior.
    Slowed down Currency to be able to pop a barb camp before MA and perhaps reduce the great barb plague a bit.
    850 - Peace with Maya, enter MA.

    Now on to civ_steve's Queries
    "I know some of you were pretty concerned about the raging barbarians; I hope the smaller size of your starting landmass greatly reduced the impact that the barbarian setting might have!" I think the landmass is still pretty big and a great part of it was not under my surveillance as I entered the MA. I hope that final barb camp pop will spare me a really big uprising, but I doubt it. There are even a few black tiles on my map. Since it is Deity and we are not expansionist, huts are uninteresting and even if there might be a luxury somewhere in the fog I wouldn't break my legs to get to it, because of those barbs.

    A big reason for the large number of barbs is of course that the AI are expanding really fast and making all new random camps appear on my island. The powerful Inca and Maya give the game a distinct C3C flavour which I have been missing.

    how many contacts have you made and how are the deity level AI doing?We have met France (3850 BC,) Celts (3500,) Maya (2750,) Germany (1830,) England (1450,) Inca (1100.) Like I said, Maya and Inca are doing just fine. We have seen but not reached some inland grey borders, belonging to a civ which Inca seems to be at war with. Our curragh was chased down by two barb galleys before we could reach that civ.

    Are you setting things up to use your Berzerks? Or are you planning on a more peaceful approach? (What? As the VIKINGS!? )I've been looking for a way to attack France before Invention. A large number of archers looked to be too costly anyway, in terms of upkeep, and we would have fallen behind in research. But we have not connected iron yet so we have no swordsmen at all.

    Stats in 850 BC
    11 cities, 1 settler, 12 workers, 6 warriors (one conscr, five reg,) 3 horsemen (two vet, one elite.) 1 curragh. Quite a few warriors and a few horsemen have died.
    One library, a few barracks.

    I'm about to start building some archers too.

    I have started Statue of Zeus and should be able to finish it in about 12-15 turns.

    Other Things of Questionable Interest
    I have a 4-turn settler factory thanks to Monarchy. This was probably the biggest benefit of the sling shot. But of course there was a slight boost to trade too and a bit surprisingly, I am the tech leader at the end of this era, having researched Literature.
     
  3. EvilConqueror

    EvilConqueror Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    455
    Location:
    USA
    Ah, the barb hords. Yes, they payed me an unwelcome visit.

    Spoiler :
    First I discovered this approaching my cities:



    Then I ran into this:



    Over the next few turns they moved in killing several of my archers and a worker, destroyed my production in several cities, and reduced my sizable amount of gold to nothing. :cry:

    As I entered the Middle Ages, I was at war with three civs for refusing their earlier demands. Tech wise I was now behind most of the other civs after being in the lead of most of the civs for the majority of the Ancient Age. And I fear that there are still a lot of barb hords lurking around. :eek:

    On a positive note, my curraghs faired surprisingly well against the barb galleys. They were eventually all sent to the bottom but they gave me a good idea of the lay of the land before they did.
     
  4. civ_steve

    civ_steve Deity Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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    3,866
    Location:
    formerly Santa Clarita, California
    Nope, the free 2nd attempt to get lower anarchy is gone in C3C.
     
  5. Racinante

    Racinante Dragon

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Collierville, Tennessee, USA
    I've never been successful at Diety and don't expect to this time. Not sure if I just build poorly or do not micro manage enough. Anyway here is a time-line through the Ancient Age.

    4000: Found Trondheim, curragh north, worker to mine cows, research writing, warrior, warrior, warrior, curragh, granary, settler, warrior, settler
    3900: Meet France
    3250: Meet India, Arabia. Trade Warrior code to India for Bronze Working + 60g. Trade Alphabet to Arabia for Pottery, Ceremonial Burial. Trade Warrior code to France for Masonry and 10 g.
    2900: Trondheim to 4, hire scientist
    2850: Meet Maya, they are up Wheel
    2710: Science to 90, settler in 5, Meet Celts, trade Masonry for 85 g
    2430: Trade Celts Alphabet + 5g for The Wheel
    2390: Found Bergen s of Ivory -> worker
    2350: Trade The Wheel + 110g to India for Iron Working, Trade Iron to Maya for Mysticism + 49g
    2310: Meet England.
    2070: Meet Inca. Trade Writing to England for Math + 68 g

    I was tempted to hold Writing, but France had it all ready and I did not want to lose the trade value. After researching Writing, I researched Map Making and Currency.

    2030: Found Copenhagan on Iron
    1950: Meet Germany. Trade Writing for Horseback Riding
    1830: Barbarian warrior kills escorted settler
    1525: Found Reykjavik on chokepoint to south
    1400: Oslo Founded
    1175: Trade Map Making to England for Philosophy, Polytheism + 198g. Trade MM + 220g to Germany for Construction.
    1125: Found Stockholm
    975: Trade Construction to India for Literature and Code of Laws + 30

    At some point (I'm not sure when) I completed Currency and entered the Modern Age.
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    2,506
    Open

    I have three goals here. First, survive the barbs. Second, avoid a conquest loss. Third, win by diplomacy.

    The barbs will be a problem for me if we are alone. Conquest will be a problem if we are not.

    I settle in place. I do pretty well for contacts, and the ivory is nice. I head straight for philosophy and take literature for free. A couple of AI declare war, but I don't attack anyone but the barbs. I build SoZ. I enter the MA sometime before 130 AD, when learning Monotheism lets me trade for monarchy and republic. By then the barbs are becoming manageable with 11 towns and SoZ, but I don't control the island yet.

    I finally figured out to deal with the barbs by settling undefended towns - defending settlers for a couple of steps, then settling and moving the escort out of town. A small treasury made this a viable option for destroying barbs.
     
  7. JonathanValjean

    JonathanValjean Porschephile

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,458
    Location:
    Charlottesville, VA, USA
    After having been away for a while, I decided to give this one a go, and, my goodness, I can't remember a game in the past in which my plans have been wrecked as harshly and as often by barbarians as in this one! I mean, can I get a medal for just surviving the barbarians? :crazyeye:

    I just entered the middle ages and have a paltry six cities, have met all the civs from around the world (the curraghs did well!), built the great library and the statue of zeus, and have 1000 gold coins in my coffers. My plan is to mass upgrade an army of archers to berserkers and set my eyes on the unsuspecting French coastal cities. I am worried that I will not be able to keep the cities once I take them, however, for France has a tremendous amount of culture (whereas I do not...). I'm getting ahead of myself, for I must first build some longboats and plant a few more cities so as to have a more solid homebase. By the way, Steve, I love the map!
     
  8. ignas

    ignas kunigaikstis

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Predator

    Worker to cow, not worth moving settler so settle in place. Worker irrigated and roaded the cow, then moved to nearby river bg to mine, road it.

    Capital built: curragh (3700), settler (3300), warrior, settler, curragh, warrior, settler (2350), granary, 6 turn warrior+settler combination.

    First curragh went north and met France, then went west near the northern coastline to meet Arabs, Maya and others. The 2nd curragh was sent to explore north, to meet other civs neighbouring France.

    Contacts: France in 3550 BC, Arabia in 3050, Maya in 2850, Celts ~2000, England in 1550, Germany in 1450, India in 1425, Inca in 730.

    Research: Writing(2270), CoL(1550), The Republic (775).

    Was bold enough and went for Republic slingshot, unfortunatley Arabs learned Philosophy in 1575 BC ruining my intentions of getting free Republic.

    While capital had a granary and produced settlers, other towns concentrated on occasional warriors, settlers, curraghs and especially workers.

    Important events:

    2150 2 of known AI’s have Writing now too;
    First trade: Alphabet for Pottery+46 from Celts
    Start granary in capital;
    Embassy in Paris.

    1725 lose a worker to Goths.

    1575 Arabs learn Philosophy.

    1525 No of 5 known AI’s know CoL, so perform a nice trading round. As a consequence I’m a teach leader now with 300 gold in the bank;
    Ivory connected;
    Embassies in Celtonia, England and Arabia.

    1500 lose one more worker to barbs.

    1425 embassy in India.

    1375 Arabs demand and declare war giving war happiness.

    1350 Maya demands and declares war after I refuse. Great, 2 sources of war happinness.

    1225 since palace wasn't in a great location, I abandon Trondheim and palace jumps to a more central location as planned, to Copenhegen.

    1150 embassy in Berlin.

    1075 poprush granary in Oslo.

    1025 Trade Polytheism for Construction with France.

    1000 Polytheism for Map Making with Celts.
    QSC stats:
    8 towns, 18 pop, a settler, 10 workers, 8 warriors, a curragh,
    2 granaries, barracks, 6 embassies.

    875 Maya has Republic.

    775 harbor in Stockholm;
    Republic comes in, shut off research.

    750 revolt for a 4 turn anarchy;
    Trade Construction for Gems with Germans.

    730 last civ – Incans met.

    690 Republic established;
    In Republic 3 4 turn settler/ 2 turn worker factories operating.

    670 trade Construction for furs and dyes with Celts;
    Embassy in Inca.

    650 peace Arabia for MA vs Maya (they are fighting, already, I'm fishing for WH) and give Republic for 658 gold and Literature;
    Cross 30 pop mark.

    630 Maya has Currency.

    550 first 2 libraries completed in Birka and Aarhus.

    530 40 pop mark;
    Arabia has Currency.

    510 3rd lib in Reykjavik (very nice town).

    470 buy silks for CoL from Celts;
    OK, time to speed up tech pace: buy Currency from Arabs for 620 gold and enter Middle Ages;
    Gift Germans Currency, they get Monotheism for free;
    trade Republic and Literature for Monotheism;
    Trade Literature for 169 gold with France;
    Arabia has "my" gold, but I wait to trade Monotheism for it since I feel I can get more for that tech;
    I start researching Engineering (due in 11), leave Feudalism to AI's.

    Plan is a world domination with cavalries. Berserk triggered Golden Age will help to get to Military Tradition faster, to build some infrastructure and some units for eventual upgrade to cavalry.

    Barbs weren't a big problem, but still they annoy me. Lost 2 workers, some shields and gold, also worker movement was a bit limited fearing barb horse popping from a fog and killing a worker.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Let me get this straight: You went for the sling-shot, yet was not willing to trade 4-5 commerce for 1 commerce per turn by moving settler to river?
     
  10. Neo666

    Neo666 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    31
    Open, going for either domination or conquest

    It’s been a while since I submitted this game so the details are a bit blurry.....

    I don’t really like the Berzerks (2 expensive and 2 slow) but the seafaring trade was great on this map!!!

    Moved the worker to the cow, didn’t see any reason to move and therefore settled in place. @ Megalou; settling in place actually gave you more commerce than settling on the river. Build order was; warrior, worker, granary. After that it was a mix of settlers, workers, curraghs and warriors until the discovery of republic when Trondheim became a 4 turner.

    The free curragh was great! It went north-east following the coast line of the other continent where it very quickly met France and the Celts. After that it took a couple of centuries before I met another civ (the Inca’s around 2500BC). Around 2000BC I had 3 curraghs scouting which with I, when the Middle Ages rolled around, met every other civ!

    Research was pottery (traded for when I met the Celts) and after that I went for the slingshot which I got in 1325BC. After the slingshot I traded around and ended up with 475 gold and only needed the yet undiscovered techs MM, Currency and Construction. Maya had Monarchy and Literature was known by nobody.

    After the slingshot I went for Currency which I discovered in 975BC after which I could trade for Construction, Monarchy and MM so reaching the Middle Ages as the tech leader (I’m the only one knowing Republic and 1 of 4 how has Monarchy) and in war with Germany, Arabia, Inca and the Celts giving some nice war happiness!

    QSC stats:
    588 Gold
    9 Cities
    98 Land
    28 Population
    7 workers
    1 warrior
    8 horsemen
    1 granary
    4 barracks
    Ivory and horses connected
    Building the SoZ, with about 15 turns remaining.

    About the barbs; very annoying!!! Killing a worker and a few warriors and horsemen. They are manageable but delaying my invasion into French territory. I just don’t like raging barbs......
     
  11. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

    Joined:
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    I settled on the BG which was on the river AND on the coast. But you and ignas are right in principle. My starting point gave 4 commerce in the center tile, but apparently settling in place also gave 4 commerce. I don't understand this. Click on the starting tile and it says "Gold: 0." Click on the river tile and it says "Gold: 1." What happens to the extra gold I should have gotten for settling on the river?
     
  12. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    It's a little thing called "despotic limitations".
     
  13. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

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    I find that explanation hard to accept. The despotic limitation is one less of every food, commerce and production unit for every tile, isn't it? This should apply to Neo666's starting position as well, giving him less commerce too. Why would the despotic limitation affect river bonuses rather than other bonuses?
     
  14. Più Freddo

    Più Freddo From space, earth is blue

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    I think the two bonus commerce in the capital centre are counted extra. So the fifth one doesn't count. Correct me if I'm wrong. I have little time nowadays and won't check it myself.

    Hope to be able to play GOTM93, though!
     
  15. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

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    It's a known fact that the manual is "concise." It does sound like a weird rule though.
     
  16. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
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    Heidelberg
    I tried a similar strategy as Megalou and went straight for Philosophy. It looked like it would work well, because already in 1950BC someone had Polytheism. However, in 1850BC the Arabs had Philosophy!! Two turns before me!!! :mad: They must have popped it like in I.Larkin's game we discussed recently, because they were the most backward civ (reduced to size 1 by the Indians and the Incans) and did not do any serious research for the rest of the game...
    Consequently I had to research Monarchy "by hand" and reached it sometime around 750BC (comparable to ignas' game, who also missed the free tech and got Republic around that time). So even though I was 2 turns faster to Philosophy than Megalou, it took me another 1000 years to finally get Monarchy! This Philosophy-thing is really quite unbalancing! If you miss it, the chances of getting a high scoring game are basically ruined.
     
  17. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I think the commerce in the capital center works like this:
    we get
    • 1 coin for the road (city center counts as road)
    • 1 coin for being on the coast
    • and then the third coin for being on the river is dropped due to despotism penalty
    After all the above, the two extra coins for being the capital are added.
     
  18. Megalou

    Megalou Thez worlds are not enuf

    Joined:
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    Weirder than weird.
     
  19. I. Larkin

    I. Larkin Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
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    4,401
    My impression is that if you research "too fast" "RNG Code" decided to slow you down and donate Phylo to somebody else. Only if "no way" like in SGTOM 14 at 2150 it goes to human player. Don't know how it is coded but overall experience is "the faster you research the less chances for sling".
    At this game I safely get Monarchy at 1700 BC. Barbarian pressure let only 3 Cities, barrack and Archers was priority.
     

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