COTM79 - Final Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 79 Final Spoiler; Byzantines, Game Submitted

Reading Requirements:
You may only read this thread if:

1. You have completed and submitted your game.

Posting Restrictions:

1. None! As long as its related to the GOTM, and within the forum rules!
2. And ... Absolutely NO discussion of any other active 'X'OTM contest!

This ends another SID level game; how did your isolated Byzantines do? Were the SID level AI containable, or did they break out and make it their game?

 

[PaperBeetle]

The Ancient Era
I settle in place and start barb-whacking almost immediately. Research is at max, starting with Pots for granaries in the two high-food locations, and then going for Philosophy, which I use to grab Mapping for free. This allows me to start trying to grab the luxuries on nearby islands, as I get ready to implement a better government. Before trying to research to Republic, I stop off for Literatire, and throw up a couple of cheap libraries. In the meantime, I have a suicide curragh survive several turns on a voyage north, to meet the Ottomans and Arabs in 1200bc. Trading gets me Masonry, Wheel and Riding. Maths is also available, and I see that Osman has access to ivory, so getting Zeus won't be a forgone conclusion for me.
This gets me thinking about wonders, and I realise that I have probably left it too long to grab Lighthouse, but I start a run on it anyway. Sure enough, it goes to Egypt in 730bc. Can I get Glib? No, it will just take too long, I'm bound to lose it, and Zeus will be long gone by the time I get beat to Glib... the only solution is to make do with Zeus and mark the others down as a learning experience. I buy in Maths, and complete the wonder in 610bc. My curragh also meets Rome and Mongolia around this time, and with the completion of Laws in 590bc, I conduct a big trade round, earning myself some hard cash and gpt, and ending the era for both myself and the Ottomans. Osman gets Enginnering, and I have Monotheism.

Choosing a Tech Path
Where now? It looks like I am pretty isolated, and will need decent ships to reach the AI, and as I already have a head start on the top branch of the tech tree, I decide to set my sights on Navigation. Osman celebrates his entry into the medieval by wiping out the Arabs. Scary. And the Celts and Egyptians turn up on the same landmass as the Romans. Well, there could be some pretty big AI empires in the making here. I'll have to keep a careful eye on the situation on this continent. I complete my set of contacts by exploring south of the Celts, finding the Inca and finally the Mayans in 350bc, the same time my Republic is inaugurated, after 6 turns of anarchy. Exploring the Mayan coastline, I also discover that there is a dromon-safe crossing back to my islands. This changes things - should I switch off the top branch of the tech tree and focus on military techs? I decide not to, as the Ottomans are powering along the bottom branch. Maybe I can trade for the military techs. Or maybe not. Thanks to a refused demand for cash, I am at war with the Ottomans, and he is slowly organising a dogpile on me.

The South American Campaign, Phase I
I can't quite decide whether to start my military push against the (weak, resource-poor) Mayans directly, or against the Inca who have decent troops (i.e. knights), using a Mayan alliance/ROP as a safety net against the sid SoDs. Osman makes my mind up, buying the Inca against me in 70ad. In 210ad, I buy the Mayans onto my side, and sit back to watch what they can acheive against the Inca. I also use Printing to buy peace with Osman, and pick up Chivalry and Invention too. Knights will be important for this war, but I start by sending over a task force of ACs, supported by a couple of pikes and catapults, and an armada of about 30 dromons which I have been steadily building up. The Inca are starting from a strong position, having taking one Mayan town, Yaxchilan, in an earlier conflict, so they already have a route across the isthmus. Pretty soon, they brush aside Mayan defenses to take inland town Copan, despite harrying from my stack of combined arms, and offshore bombardment from the armada. Looks bad for the Mayans and me, and when the Inca take southern town Bonampak in 360ad, Smoke gives them peace. I'm not going to be able to fight this war on my own yet, so I sue for peace as well, but only after grabbing Bonampak for myself. I now have a base from which to launch the next campaign. This war also got me my first two elites! Yes, it has taken this long to acheive that much. How am I ever to get any armies, and if I can't get armies, how am I ever to fight the sids?

South American Campaign, Phase II
The Mayans are pretty well beaten, and won't be much further use against the Inca, so I think their towns would be better off supporting me directly. I dow in 430ad, and my very second elite battle results in... a loss . Just one elite AC left. Nevertheless, my stack and armada finish mopping up survivors from the Incan war, and take the first of the three Mayan towns, west-coast Tikal, in 510ad. And then finally I get my break. My fifth elite win, in 530ad, generates a leader to form an AC army. And at the same time, a Mayan galley appears in range of the dromon armada, so I take the chance to start my golden age. Perhaps I can get some serious research done - I am currently at Astronomy / Chemistry, having used Music as a trading gambit. I finish off the final two Mayan towns by 590ad, but before taking Chichen, I take the opportunity to combat-settle a town on the isthmus, and gift it to the Egyptians. This is significant as the Egyptian homeland is simultaneously conquered by Rome, so I have reduced the effective width of the isthmus to 1 tile, with a netural (unflippable) town. I will thus be able to use my army to control the Incan military's access to my side of the continent.

South American Campaign, Phase III
My golden age isn't giving me quite the tech boost I need, due to the cost of my ever-growing military, but I manage to reach Physics in 670ad, the same turn the Ottoman goes industrial. Ouch. Lack of embargo/mpp options tells me he got Steam or Medicine. It will be interesting to see if railroads start appearing on his t map. Anyway, back in South America, I get my troops rested up and moved into place, and dow Pacha in 690ad. The army holds the chokepoint closed while I deal with the two Incan towns already in my half of the continent, which costs quite some lives, and hence war weariness. Then I move everyone up to the choke to start leader-fishing and whittling down the Incan military. The neutral town + army + dromon support plan works like a dream, and pretty soon I am getting my ACs well promoted, Epic under construction in Constatinople, and despite throwing 10-20 units into the battlefield every turn, the Inca can't make it through to threaten me. Pacha does actually think to buy Egypt onto his side of the war, but so what? Cleo is no threat to me, and even allied, the Incan units still can't move through that town . My second leader comes along in 820ad, and he won't be the last.

South American Campaign, Phase IV
At one point I do mess up and push a counterattack too hard with my controlling army; redlined, I can't close the choke properly, and a rush of Incans gets through. But some furious defending rescues the situation, and by 900ad I feel the Incans are weak enough for me to be able to go on the offensive, starting with the Egyptians. In 950ad, I retake Panama from a seemingly-endless horde of defending spears, knocking out the Egyptians. I also finally reach the Industrial Era in 920ad, with the research of Gravity. My free tech is Medicine, meh. Osman is by now so far ahead in tech that I have no hope of trading with him, but I do get to sell Medicine to Rome for Mil Trad, which will be crucial for my war effort. In the war, my next target is Cuzco, which requires a serious seige of some 7-8 turns. Although I was keeping the Mayan towns, the Incan culture is much stronger, so on this side of the isthmus, the game is raze & replace. New Cuzco is founded in 1040ad, bringing a much-needed fifth luxury into the empire, and from there on things run smoothly, but slowly. I inch northwards up the continent, my pace dictated by the need to use cannon; the Inca have actually got ahead of me in tech, and are defending with rifles. Simultaneously, a small task force prepares to head by galleon to the south-eastern island where the Inca have settled two towns. With their capture in 1160ad, the war is finally over, my most bitter enemy defeated.

The Celtic Campaign
Next up: the continent north of the Incan land. Brennus has been at war with me since way back, when he was bought up by the Ottomans. But as a minor civ under pressure from Rome, the most he has ever been able to do is send an occasional curragh out to get sunk by my dromons. Now it is time for me to put him out of his misery. I drop an army off on the southern tip of his continent in 1130ad, backing it up with cannons a turn later, once I have checked that he won't try attacking it. On the first turn he doesn't, but then just as I am getting ready to start seiging Entremont, a single archer does try to take on my army. Weird. Anyway, he loses, and Entremont falls in 1150ad. The Celts do have a military large enough to require attention, but by now, I field several armies, so funneling the AI troops into traps is only made difficult by the cramped size of the continent. I head on the offensive proper in 1210ad, and by 1250ad, the Celts are gone. The old Egyptian land is next along the continent, and in the absence of Cleo, it has been claimed by both the Ottomans, occupying the north coast and southern peninsula, and a Roman town sandwiched in between.

The Roman Campaign
I don't want to antagonise the Ottoman. He has only three towns sharing landmasses with me; the two in Egypt, and one on the small continent southeast of Egypt, which I otherwise managed to monopolise. Taking those towns would be straightforward, but progressing onto his home land and his large tundra island sounds nasty. He's been left building sipahi for a long time now, and I don't know where on the tech tree he is, or what resources he might have. I will play safe and take on Rome, which will put me easily in range of domination. Julius is using rifles, but I know from my experience with the Inca that I can handle them easily enough. I dow in 1255ad and set up a trap at the eastern end of the long isthmus. But not much comes wandering into it, so pretty soon I am on the move again, and take the Roman town in Egypt in 1265ad. I have to work my way around the eastern side of the lake due to the culture of the nearby Ottoman town, but once I have reached the Roman homeland, it is just a case of bringing the cannon up to each town in turn. I have easily enough armies to screen off large areas of the continent, so there are no great tactical headaches any more. By 1345ad, I have control of the mainland, leaving just two island colonies.

Picking a VC
Towards the end of the Roman campaign I am feeling pretty confident, and wondering which VC to aim for. Domination is my fall-back, but that's how I had to finish my last sid game, due to time constraints. I've still got weeks here, so I could consider going for conquest, space or 100k. Osman is currently a slight threat for 20k and 100k, and of course eventually space, but if we are at war I should be able to put a stop to such things. I start making plans for an Ottoman campaign, followed by whatever VC takes my fancy at the end of it. Then in 1325ad, Osman starts SETI! Okay, okay, dom it is. I don't want him threatening UN, defending with TOWs and whatnot, and maybe even nuking me. My research finally reaches Replaceable Parts in 1330ad, after which I just spend cash on libraries and get settlers moved into place. Osman tries a last-ditch dow in 1345ad, but it is half-hearted, only taking two towns. He could have done more, which would have delayed me by a turn, but I go 13 tiles over the limit when the recent library builds pop their culture in 1350ad.

9919 Firaxis points gives me 9061 Jasons. All in all, it was pretty badly done; I needed research no further than Magnetism and Mil Trad, which would have been about 900ad, and then just spend cash on disconnect/reconnect. Rails were a little help in moving units to the front, and retreating to barracks, but apart from that I gained almost no benefit from my agonisingly slow industrial research.
I played honorably, as I usually do these days, breaking no ongoing deals, although I did unsuccessfully try using extortion to goad AIs into dowing me.

 

[Spoonwood]

Nice game Megalou. I went for space, but had so many war declarations... and didn't expect my gpt for gold rate would cost as much as it did... that a few turns after I learned Flight and getting bombed enough I decided to play some other games. That said, this game definitely come as winnable. Though, I will say I *hate* tundra.

 

[Drazek]

I did not finish last two Sid COTMs due to starting too late. This time I started early. Played Open as I thought fire rate 3 Dromons would be great help.

QSC stats:
8 towns, 1 settler, 15 workers, 8 warriors, 4 spearmen, 2 curraghs.
Missing Code of Laws and Currency from MA.
Only south barbarians on tundra left to be cleared. I hate barbs on Sid, maybe
next time we wont get them. Tho, they help to produce elite units.

I went for a military victory with Cavalries. However, Mayans built The Great Lighthouse and I started to build a fleet of Dromons quite early to defend my lands as I was in war with most of the AIs after seeing how far they were (got war happiness). Researched Cavalries myself with early maxed pop 12 cities. It was still quite slow as there was not enough land near the capital and Sid research costs are huge.

I also stopped wars against Inca and Mayans so that they would research faster. Mayans got Literature and The Great Library, and continued the upper tech tree upto Navigation, which was great. Just have to capture The Great Libary and no more research after Cavalries.

At 450 CE I was ready for real wars. Some time earlier, I allied Mayans against Incas so they would exhaust their troops before my landing. I made a town between Mayans and Incas and bombarded left over troops from the AI-AI war with 30 Dromons for leader fishing, which worked quite fast. After a bit, attacked Mayans also and gain their The Great Lighthouse, The Great Library and Leonardo's Workshop.

I set up some pillaging armies for Romans and Ottomans. The Ottomans attacked my Cavalry armies very randomly (This is due to their Sipahi?) and eventually I had to get peace. So there was not much help from the RoP rape... Ottomans also reached Industrial Ages and they got Riflemen... I prepared for later invasion with 40 Cavalries, 5 armies, and 30 bombarding Dromons, which was successful. Managed to lure most of their troops to out of combat with a bait worker and armies. There is a picture attached in this post.

The wars went quite slowly as I was fighting on many fronts. In the end I had 21 Cavalry armies and 108 Cavalry left, Conquest in 1200 CE. I could have reached domination much earlier but I wanted to destroy Ottomans, which took most of the army resources. Other AIs except Mongols and Arabs reached IA as well, but only Ottomans had Riflemen.

 

[PaperBeetle]

^ Wow, is that town safe? I always thought the AI would attack towns defended by armies; in other words that it is hard-coded to treat suicide odds against a town differently to suicide odds against a unit in the field. Otherwise it would hardly ever summon the courage to start trying to actually conquer anybody... But then I also used to think the AI would attack a beach-head army suicidally if it was their only available target. This was the first game I dared to try it anyway, and proved myself 98% wrong!

 

[Memento]

@Drazek
Wow,what a Game. Thats very impressive.
Papers Game are good too.

Diplomatic Victory in 1435 AD

I thought that are not bad, but if i see the fu***** Jason Score .....
Firaxis score: 8226
Jason score: 7755

85 years later than Papers Dom give me almost 1300 points less.
Not enough Land tiles.
Next time more War.

 

[CKS]

Well, I lost interest in this game during the middle ages. While I wasn't losing yet, the necessary military campaigns are unattractive. Because the Inca and Mayans are nearby and sharing an island, I think I could have managed to take them out eventually, and I surely would have gotten an army out of this so as to invade elsewhere. However, I don't think I could have reached the domination limit before losing some other way. Demigod is about my limit for this. I switched to the monarch level GOTM, and never came back to this game. I submitted an incomplete game at 420 AD, and I'm looking forward to a less difficult game next month.

 

[Paul#42]

domination victory in 800 AD here.

I stopped research after MT, trailing the Ottoman by half an era.
But I took the land from all but Mongols and Ottomans, which was more than 100 tiles over domination limit in 800 AD.

Our dromons ruled the seas and shelled all shores and foreign navies.

Just one downside: chicken me played open class this time
I was afraid of the unhappiness issues due to the missing luxury source.

More detailed time table to follow.

 

[Garvarg]

Victory in defeat !
I suffered a space defeat in 1772, but the fact that I even managed to get to the end of a Sid level game is my victory.

 

[Megalou]

PaperBeetle, thanks for a very illuminating spoiler. (Apparently, our elaborations are rather similar since Spoonwood apparently thought I was you, but I have never played a game like that.) Congratulations to those of you that won the game. I ran into a series of events leading the wrong way, and so retired in 270 AD. I made plans to steal the Great Library from Egypt in order to free cash for upgrades, and the Great Lighthouse for effective shipping. Egypt had only two towns and no iron, and they had been battered by the Celts. But roughly ten turns before my landing near Thebes, Rome declared on Egypt, and destroyed them in a couple of turns. Just before they declared on Egypt (on the same interturn) Rome extorted some gold from me. I should not have given in, but let Rome declare on me, because then they would probably not have directed their bloodlust towards Egypt. I carried on for a few turns but felt like the road towards victory became too long. With Rome owning the Great Lighthouse, I wouldn't even have gotten a monopoly on the northwestern islands.

 

[PaperBeetle]

(Apparently, our elaborations are rather similar since Spoonwood apparently thought I was you, but I have never played a game like that.)

It's an honour to be mistaken for you, chief.

 

[Memento]

To equalize the different victory conditions, the following values were used:
Diplomatic
560AD
Space Race
1000AD

How do you manage that?

 

[templar_x]

i am too late, my game probably would not be accepted (see spoiler 1), but i think i got quite a good one:

cotm 79 open (i really should have played predator, the dromon was way too strong to get the real Sid feeling)
domination victory for Ottos in 480ad (turn 162)
Firaxis score 14834
Jason score ? (hopefully the staff will let me know)

I settle, then improve western cow first so I have a road there.
Build order I believe curragh-warrior-settler

Min on Writing, full speed on Philo. I delay the granary for 3 reasons: the early barbs. Another factory site close by. It should be tradable.
When I meet a bunch of civs within a few turns I can even get some trades for Alpha. Although I am max 3rd to Writing, I manage to get Philo first.
1275 enter Monarchy as tech leader. Rome is strong, and in a war with Egypt. But the pharaoh has also taken Veii, a Roman core city. Mongols are very backward. 2 civs still unknown. 2 factories running. Barbs did cost a little, but nothing too bad. 1 lux connected and the 2nd close to. Iron and horses are both available, nice.

1100 connect 2nd lux.

1000bc
10 towns, 27 pop, 85 land
Know 3 nations
2 lux connectd
6 workers,1 slave
6 vet warriors,1 vet archer, 2 curraghs
1 gran, 3 rax
2 turns to Lit, Poly, HB+ Con missing in AA (everything but HB around, I do not believe I have seen this before)

Egypt and Rome are into a massive war, as are Maya and Inca.
I delay the MA a few turns in order to get rid of 2 more camps
710 Arabs destroyed, and I have never met them
690 am first to the MA; unmet Ottos finish SoZ, which I wanted to have with my very few shields…
Draw Mono
550 finally meet Ottos, they appear much weaker than expected when they built a whole bunch of wonders. But they have destroyed the Arabs.
Buy 15 slaves from Maya for Mono…thought long about this deal, but finally decided for it. They had built a town on one of my islands, and thus this deal became possible.

Try to get an MGL in a small scale war and then do some diplomacy. In 90bc the real fighting starts, when I take the Mayan town that holds TGLight!
Turn off research after Chiv. Ottomans are the only ones with a reasonable research.

50ad destroy Maya
Then RoP-rape Inca, shooting my rep. no need for that any more.
War against Incans starts well, but when more and more absurd battle results occur (first 3 knights die against def-2 units in a row, on ibt 3 1-attack units kill 2- and 3-def units in a row!) my offense gets a bit used up.
Two things happened I do not understand:
1. a maya town not bordering the Incans flipped to them, holding none of their population. How can this be?
2. not a new thing, but I always wonder: the Incans learn Feud while I am getting them. Although they have no money at all, they can in an instant upgrade their spears to pikes. How?
280 Incan continent conquered, 2 more towns left from them.
290 Invade Celtia
310 1st MGL with 16th e victory, I save it for a possible later invasion of the Ottoman island. They are growing really strong.
330 see that Ottos have muskets; Inca destroyed
340 take Egyptian capital with Pyr, Glib, KT
350 Celts gone
360 Egypt destroyed
380 2nd MGL with 30th e victory, this army I fill instantly
390 build channel town by the Roman front, 3rd MGL
450 try invasion against Ottomans just for the fun of it and to see if a fast ConDom victory would be possible. it terribly fails.
Jump over dom limit with 66% land and 69% pop
the Mongolian and the Ottoman islands are untouched, and Rome still holds 3 minor towns (i could take within 1 or 2 turns). i got all islands but the big one to the west of the Ottos, although the invasion forces are already standing on its doorstep.

what else:
i had very few early promotions, so it took forever to get a chance on MGLs. they were rare early, quite a few later, but they were not decisive. i tried once, but did not manage to assemble an army in ottoman land, which was very badly shaped for that.

keeping the stronger AIs in balanced wars with each other was key. their troop strength was rather Demigod-Deity than Sid.

I thought about doing a ConDom, and I am sure I could have done it with even more time invested, although the Otto island proved tough and i stopped research after Chiv. They were quite a bit away from MilTrad I believe. After finishing off Rome, I think a large scale invasion with massive sea support would have done the trick.

5 MGLs with the e victories 16, 30, 32, 36, 53

i may not qualify, but it feels like i have my first Sid COTM done, after those Sid gams for the HoF. i really wanted to go for it, but even though using all the time i got, and my baby son let me have, i could not get it done on time.

templar_x

 

[Paul#42]

No, just kidding... Open Class this time.
Going for fast domination...

apologies for this mess here, I really played this one in a hurry and did not take time to take notes thoroughly...

game plan

We are - Theodora
SEA & SCI, best choice for SID on archipelago.
Our dromons will rule the seas!

capital placement
settle in place. worker shall irrigate the first cow.

build sequence plan
2 warriors, settlers and curraghs.
Granary only if we got some space.

opponents
Only one opponent starts with Alpha.

science
So Writing at min, because we won't beat 50 turns by much with 480 beakers to go.
Missing a river of commerce here
Maps is the first goal, we want those dromons!

Golden Age
We might try to form an early monarchy and start our GA by some dromon sea battles


Start

initial build sequence
warrior, curragh (just one shield on growth leaves us with 9 shields on turn 7 )
With lots of space to expand, we build granaries in Contantinople and Adrianople for many settlers and workers.

foreign affairs
2030 BC meet Incas (5 towns, +Mas, Pot, TW, WC, CB, IW, 112g; - Alpha )
1870 BC Celts (3 towns, +Mas, TW, WC, CB, IW, 10g; - Alpha)
1790 BC Egypt (3 towns, +Mas, WC, CB, IW, Writing , 199g)
1750 BC Embassy in Thebes (started ToA, in 15 with 14spt. 20 units), Entremont (spear, 40 units), Cuzco (horses, Iron, river.
1750 BC Romans, (9 towns, +HBR, Poly, 1g) ToA in 25 @8spt
1625 BC Ottomans (6 towns, +Poly, 130g; -Alpha, IW )
1550 BC Arabs (3 towns, 62g; -Alpha, TW, IW)
1325 BC Mongols (3 towns; -Mas, Alpha, Mys)
1125 BC meet Maya (5 towns, +216g; -Maths, Philo, CoL, MM, HBR)
dow Celts. Bribe Inca (rop, ma, peace, Maths, Philo for for 32gpt+78g).
dow Egypt, bribe Rome (rop, ma, peace, MM, CoL for Maths, Philo, 8gpt, 664g).
I had a curragh in Eqypt territory
800 BC Rome and Egypt sign peace, violating our MA.

90 AD capture Incan Ollantaytambo with the lighthouse!
210 AD take last Incan town, but they survive. Searching for the runaway settler... Ah, in distant Ottoman territory.
230 AD (?) I sign MA against Inca with Ottomans, for 120gpt spoiling my gpt-reputation soon...
but killing Inca run away settler combo , I also netted 1200g from Egypt for some 80gpt, breaking that deal immediately...)
470 AD Mayas byte the dust.
500 AD Ottomans dow. Our navies fight to rule the sea. 120 Dromons against frigates.
710 AD Egypt taken.
760 AD Roman island almost taken. Peace with Ottomans for gold. Rush culture to fill gaps.


internal affairs
875 BC form Monarchy.
590 BC hand built fp in Nicaea.
470 BC dromon sinks Inca galley, starts GA!
90 BC e-sword kills Inca spear, gets us a MGL! Forms sword army.
30 AD our forces: 18 swords, 55 dromons. Sword army in Incan territory.
400 AD our forces: 10 MDI, 9 swords, 14 horses, 2 pikes, 88 dromons, 3 armies in Maya, 1 in Celtia.
430 AD 100th dromon on duty
740 AD our forces: 16 cavs, 10 MDI, 14 horses, 7 swords, 151 dromons, still 4 armies.
790 AD rush temples to gain another turn.
800 AD domination victory! 100 tiles surplus


science
2030 BC Pottery (Incas, +112 for Alpha)
1870 BC The Wheel (Celts, for Alpha +2gpt)
1790 BC Writing (self), Mas, CB, IW (Inca, for Wri), WC, Mys (Celts, for Wri +5gpt)
1625 BC Poly (Ottomans, +130g for Alpha, IW), HBR (Celts, for Poly)
1125 BC Maths, Philo (Inca, for 32gpt+78g), MM, CoL (Rome, for Maths, Philo, 8gpt, 664g), Monarchy (Ottoman, for Maths, Philo, MM, CoL, 25gpt).
350 BC Currency (Egypt, for 25gpt), Construction (Maya, for Currency + 7gpt), Engineering (free)
190 AD Monotheism (min sci, self), Feudalism (Maya, +26gpt, 152g for Monotheism)
210 AD Invention (Rome, for Monotheism)
230 AD (?) Gunpowder (Ottoman for 120gpt)
380 AD Chemistry (self)
490 AD Theology (Rome, for chemistry)
530 AD Metallurgy (self)
640 AD MilTrad (self). Stop research. Sell Libs to upgrade horses. The sword is stronger than the pen

 

[Lanzelot]

How do you manage that?

We had that discussion many times before, e.g in the GOTM101 final spoiler starting at post #18 and the GOTM103 Results and Congratulations! up to post #15. I guess we just have to live with it (or go through the effort of re-calibrating the VC target dates...)

 

[Memento]

I remember about the diskuss. but this Dates are so unacceptable that I had to get upset about it.

 

[Megalou]

Firaxis score 14834
Jason score ? (hopefully the staff will let me know)[/COLOR]

!?
Just check in the Jason calculator.