[RD] Could our posts here endanger us in the far future?

Mouthwash

Escaped Lunatic
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If you've read this Twitter thread on just how much information companies like Google and Facebook keep on you, and I strongly advise that you do, then you might understand just why I'm making this thread. You're handing over a complete record of everything you do, everywhere you go, and what you think about to private companies. Locations, purchases, Google searches, your entire life.

So, let's say an totalitarian regime comes to power in an area that is currently considered to be democratic in the year 2020. Is that so hard to believe? Look at 1900 vs 1920. Then 1920 vs 1940. 1940 vs 1960. 1960 vs 1980. 1980 vs 2000. No one ever imagined accurately how things would be after a mere two decades; are we arrogant enough to believe that things have finally settled down into a stable configuration? The predictions of Clinton's era did not describe what 2020 would be like, and I suspect we don't have a much better grasp of 2040. It is not inconceivable that a DPRK-style regime will arise in Europe or North America within the lifetime of a young person like me.

And there is an ominous trend - twentieth-century authoritarian states arguably lost because they were less efficient than democratic, market-driven societies. With the ability to access such complete information on every one of its citizens' needs, opinions, or desires, that disadvantage might disappear or reverse itself entirely. Vast databases will concentrate power into the hands of those with the resources to gather the data (let me remind you that potential threats are being flagged today by algorithms based on not even actions, but general patterns of behavior).

Does a dictatorship really care whether someone is innocent or guilty? They only need to remove the threat to themselves, and I don't see why it would matter if that threat was a statistical one. If an old man posted something political that the regime didn't like back when he was young, well, the algorithm says he is likely to not have changed his views. Let's arrest him and his entire family. I have no doubt that CFC will be included in an internet trawl, and that its users could be traced back to their real identities by a malicious government.

So yeah, this is worrying right now with all of the legal protections and rights you currently have. But the data is there, stored permanently, and it only takes a change of legality to give the secret police access to it. Are you confident that no such change will ever take place?

The second-best-case scenario, I think, would be a dictatorship that ruled the entire world and didn't care about anything but stability. Without competition or any ideological vision, it might leave general society alone, monopolize data-gathering and only act to crush disruptors.

The best-case scenario would be a traditionalist revival that abhorred technology. The Amish double their numbers every twenty years, but that won't even begin mattering until the twenty-second century. My hope is that the ocean of misery the internet has already caused will drive people into their arms, or to form new pro-natal religious communities.

My personal advice is to move to a remote, isolated location where a government may be less likely to see you as a threat and less worth its time to conscript/indoctrinate. And never use anything that stores information or connects to the internet again.
 
You talk a big game with no follow-through, Mouthwash. I don't see a reason for us to play a part in your fantasy. You constantly post these "destruction of society" hypotheticals wherein you posit the best way to become the Unabomber. Either you're the downtrodden, forced to hide, or you're the one who rises above the degeneracy, the one who ushers in a golden age of "the right way to live."

The biggest risk you face in reality is having someone trawl your posts after a job interview and finding out you're woefully anti-LGBT and constantly railing against the evils of technology and a distancing from traditional roles and insulated communities. The short interlude of pondering the costs of bulldozing major cities like New York so you can build your utopia might be of interest to some employers too.

You like the Amish so much? Go join them. You hate computers so much? Don't use them. Follow your own "personal advice."
 
Oh, I thought this would be again about the Basilisk. Happy it's not.

Big data has been biting people already in the butt before.
The Dutch were among the first to use automized systems from IBM for collecting their census data. How many people live where, what's their job, what's their religion.
The Nazis found this very convenient when they invaded.

While trying to find a reference, it turns out this was the case too in Germany, https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/the-dark-side-of-census-collections/7860908 .

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
In the book, published in 2001, Black outlined the way in which IBM's technology helped facilitate Nazi genocide through generation and tabulation of punch cards based upon national census data.[1]

It's pretty realistic that this could happen in the future.
Or even more realistic: You get infected with ransomware, and you get blackmailed through this information.
 
I think I'll be fine.
My life has been so directionless and my interests so diverse that the ad algorithms are already confused by the data they have on me.
If my posts here can even be traced back to my RL identity they'll just show that was always with the new program and just too lazy and cowardly to actively participate in the revolution.
 
even if the motives for MWs criticism are dubious, I think he is still fundamentally right. I think his fear of an authoritarian power using that information is a bit old-timey. late-stage capitalism, targeted advertising, algorhithmis and so forth are already using that information to monitor, control and manipulate the flow of peoples' lives, their activities, honestly even thoughts. late capitalism is in some ways more oppressive that authoritarianism: the old-school authorities can be identified, resisted, made fun of, villified, et cetera. but late capitalism works via nudging. via incremental psychological manipulation. exactly like the advertising industry, the goal is to elicit something in you psychologically, then capitalize on it. because if you don't actively nudge people into buying things, capitalism cannot self-sustain it's incredibly hungry, accelerating machinery.

the most draconic authority is the one you cannot identify, the one that suggests all its doings are merely you exercising your free will and your desires. in the light of late stage capitalism, the "invisible hand" as a metaphor enters a new stage of meaning.
 
If you've read this Twitter thread on just how much information companies like Google and Facebook keep on you, and I strongly advise that you do, then you might understand just why I'm making this thread. You're handing over a complete record of everything you do, everywhere you go, and what you think about to private companies. Locations, purchases, Google searches, your entire life.
Most of my life was lived pre-internet. Any records of my life that were not digitized (ie. medical records) are either gone or still in my possession (except for that really bad Star Trek story I wrote in high school and gave away; it was handwritten on looseleaf and I have no idea what the recipient finally did with it; she kept it for at least a few years that I know of). There might still be a few issues of old newsletters I published back in the '80s/'90s but none of the content was ever online because it was pre-internet.

Does a dictatorship really care whether someone is innocent or guilty? They only need to remove the threat to themselves, and I don't see why it would matter if that threat was a statistical one. If an old man posted something political that the regime didn't like back when he was young, well, the algorithm says he is likely to not have changed his views. Let's arrest him and his entire family. I have no doubt that CFC will be included in an internet trawl, and that its users could be traced back to their real identities by a malicious government.
I'm sure the very worst of what everyone here thinks about government, whether individual politicians or policies or parties, has either not been posted or has been posted and deleted, due to breaches of the forum rules (ie. advocating suicide, self-harm, murder, etc.).

My FB posts in recent months would condemn me much worse than CFC, because I haven't been reticent about some of my views of particular provincial politicians currently engaged in policies that are screwing up my life and the lives of other disabled Albertans and have the potential to put some of us out on the street during this pandemic (the premier refuses to suspend evictions, instead telling us to "hope for compassionate landlords"). Well, mine is reasonably compassionate, but many aren't. It's the government that put in the policy of not depositing recipients' benefits until the same day they're supposed to come out for rent and pre-authorized debit for utilities. Some people have been getting dinged for NSF charges because the withdrawals happen before the deposits, and from what I've read on FB, there have been evictions in certain cases where the landlord was not "compassionate."

So yeah, this is worrying right now with all of the legal protections and rights you currently have. But the data is there, stored permanently, and it only takes a change of legality to give the secret police access to it. Are you confident that no such change will ever take place?
It could take place, but would it? Who knows? And the notion of dictatorship is in the eye of the beholder. There are people screeching on the Canadian news sites that Trudeau is a dictator because he's musing about invoking the Emergencies Act to deal with the coronavirus (because of people who refuse to self-isolate, nonessential businesses that refuse to close, public gatherings that refuse to maintain social distancing, looting of closed businesses, hoarding, and so on). The powers granted by this act are temporary, but the detractors seem to have missed that part.

My personal advice is to move to a remote, isolated location where a government may be less likely to see you as a threat and less worth its time to conscript/indoctrinate. And never use anything that stores information or connects to the internet again.
If you were that worried, would you have started this thread?


I know it's unsettling when people's game forum posts are found by people/entities you wouldn't expect. Look what happened awhile back when I complained about a specific courier company. Within a very short time, one of their bots created an account, posted in the thread, addressed me by name (forum name, thankfully), and offered to remedy my complaint. How that bot managed to create the account, I have no idea. But it was really unsettling, and I asked the staff to leave the post up until I got a screenshot. Then I wrote to the company and let them know that their "offer" was not appreciated, and they had caused inconvenience not only to me but to the staff of the forum, because of having to delete the post and ban that account (and don't even try to guess which company it was, or they'll be back; they have bots trawling all over the 'net, looking for posts like the one I made at the time, so they can quickly intervene).
 
well , Star Wars are the movies to watch . If that's so silly , ı have been doin' quite allright , thank you .
 
In writing fiction a "far future" setting is generally recognized as being centuries offset from the present. So no, in the far future our posts will not be a threat to us since we will not be around to be threatened.
 
You talk a big game with no follow-through, Mouthwash. I don't see a reason for us to play a part in your fantasy. You constantly post these "destruction of society" hypotheticals wherein you posit the best way to become the Unabomber. Either you're the downtrodden, forced to hide, or you're the one who rises above the degeneracy, the one who ushers in a golden age of "the right way to live."

That fact that you seem to take my curiosity with how society at large could be fixed as a terror risk is... appropriate for the thread.

The biggest risk you face in reality is having someone trawl your posts after a job interview and finding out you're woefully anti-LGBT and constantly railing against the evils of technology and a distancing from traditional roles and insulated communities. The short interlude of pondering the costs of bulldozing major cities like New York so you can build your utopia might be of interest to some employers too.

Most employers probably don't have the resources to connect me to an anonymous forum account.

You like the Amish so much? Go join them. You hate computers so much? Don't use them. Follow your own "personal advice."

That's the plan, and if I could go back I'd never have touched a computer. But the damage is already done. I doubt this thread will make things that much worse for me.

I thought this was going to be about Roko's Basilisk

AI rebellion is... let's say about as likely as utilitarianism being true. It's AI in the hands of humans you should fear.

even if the motives for MWs criticism are dubious, I think he is still fundamentally right.

What do you imagine my motives are? I've been perfectly open about my feelings towards 'progress', technological or otherwise. Now I'm offering an argument for why. How do you take that as something disingenuous?

I think his fear of an authoritarian power using that information is a bit old-timey. late-stage capitalism, targeted advertising, algorhithmis and so forth are already using that information to monitor, control and manipulate the flow of peoples' lives, their activities, honestly even thoughts. late capitalism is in some ways more oppressive that authoritarianism: the old-school authorities can be identified, resisted, made fun of, villified, et cetera. but late capitalism works via nudging. via incremental psychological manipulation. exactly like the advertising industry, the goal is to elicit something in you psychologically, then capitalize on it. because if you don't actively nudge people into buying things, capitalism cannot self-sustain it's incredibly hungry, accelerating machinery.

the most draconic authority is the one you cannot identify, the one that suggests all its doings are merely you exercising your free will and your desires. in the light of late stage capitalism, the "invisible hand" as a metaphor enters a new stage of meaning.

I don't think that kind of mind control is really possible - if it were, it would have taken over the world long ago. It's the omniscient panopticon that scares me, because it gives power to those who least deserve it.

I'm sure the very worst of what everyone here thinks about government, whether individual politicians or policies or parties, has either not been posted or has been posted and deleted, due to breaches of the forum rules (ie. advocating suicide, self-harm, murder, etc.).

My FB posts in recent months would condemn me much worse than CFC, because I haven't been reticent about some of my views of particular provincial politicians currently engaged in policies that are screwing up my life and the lives of other disabled Albertans and have the potential to put some of us out on the street during this pandemic (the premier refuses to suspend evictions, instead telling us to "hope for compassionate landlords"). Well, mine is reasonably compassionate, but many aren't. It's the government that put in the policy of not depositing recipients' benefits until the same day they're supposed to come out for rent and pre-authorized debit for utilities. Some people have been getting dinged for NSF charges because the withdrawals happen before the deposits, and from what I've read on FB, there have been evictions in certain cases where the landlord was not "compassionate."

Are we really expecting a hypothetical fascist regime to be 'reasonable'? Plenty of historical movements killed people for just not being enthusiastic enough about their cause. And in this case, it's just an algorithm saying that you're unlikely to be enthusiastic.
 
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You're right about the authoritarianism, because we're going to get better and better at writing algorithms that analyse people's belief and behaviours. And we do have a trendline of handing authority and sovereignty to entities we deem 'legitimate'. So, once that entity hacks things so that we can become increasingly complacent, it's a bit of a runaway problem. There's a lot of authortarianism in people, just waiting to be convinced that they're allowed to unleash it.

I used to worry about lie detection and all of our laundry being available for public viewing. There were two solutions to this 'problem'. Learning to forgive people out of empathy. You have a video of me scratching my butt at Walmart? Well, the only way it doesn't damage me is if everyone says 'meh' to such a revelation. The other is to act as if you will be held accountable in the future. Google knows my porn preferences. IF I worry that some of my preferences won't be appreciated by my peers in the future, my only game-winning move is to not sate them.
 
Is that the year, or the number of attempts?

Lmao this is much better than the reply I was going to make. Mouthwash has made that commitment/promise at least twice in recent years.

even if the motives for MWs criticism are dubious, I think he is still fundamentally right. I think his fear of an authoritarian power using that information is a bit old-timey. late-stage capitalism, targeted advertising, algorhithmis and so forth are already using that information to monitor, control and manipulate the flow of peoples' lives, their activities, honestly even thoughts. late capitalism is in some ways more oppressive that authoritarianism: the old-school authorities can be identified, resisted, made fun of, villified, et cetera. but late capitalism works via nudging. via incremental psychological manipulation. exactly like the advertising industry, the goal is to elicit something in you psychologically, then capitalize on it. because if you don't actively nudge people into buying things, capitalism cannot self-sustain it's incredibly hungry, accelerating machinery.

the most draconic authority is the one you cannot identify, the one that suggests all its doings are merely you exercising your free will and your desires. in the light of late stage capitalism, the "invisible hand" as a metaphor enters a new stage of meaning.

Fundamentally right in a way that is meaningless. It's nihilistic fatalism to shake one's fist at the advancement of technology and simply assume it will herald in a world of evil. The primary issue I take with it is that it's unhelpful. Making this observation serves no purpose. The proposed solution isn't a solution, it's just regression to a different kind of suffering and authoritarianism. Shifting boundaries and technologies around doesn't change the underlying issue being put forth. Humans being garbage will be a fact whether they are armed with information or not. We have a wide variety of history books that make written record of this. Change the configuration as much as you like, the problem being pointed out remains.

"We can prevent this world of evil by going back in time." is appropriate for a Back to the Future sequel. Not so much for real life.
 
That fact that you seem to take my curiosity with how society at large could be fixed as a terror risk is... appropriate for the thread.
'How society could be fixed".
You referring to your Pol Pot by way of Thomas the Tank Engine plan to make us all live in new-built Dubrovnik's and drive golf carts in winter, or your plan to turn urban areas into racially-divided Bantustans?
Or is it just referring to your ideas to ban gay people in public?
 
AI rebellion is... let's say about as likely as utilitarianism being true. It's AI in the hands of humans you should fear.

on this we agree

What do you imagine my motives are? I've been perfectly open about my feelings towards 'progress', technological or otherwise. Now I'm offering an argument for why. How do you take that as something disingenuous?

your criticism of the issue stems from general cultural- globalisation and civilization related pessimism. mine comes from a decidedly leftist point of view: a critique of capitalism (and globalization, too, to an extent). I would not say you are disingenious, sorry, that wasn't my point, just that our motives are fundamentally different. we critisize the same issue, but want different things instead.

I don't think that kind of mind control is really possible - if it were, it would have taken over the world long ago. It's the omniscient panopticon that scares me, because it gives power to those who least deserve it.

It's not just possible, it's already happening. what is advertising if not the attempt to actively establishing control over our desires and our thoughts? its goal is to create desires which will eventually lead to action, most of the time that is buying a product. how is this process of advertising not already majorly influenced by big data? adding on top of that, everyones world view is also definitely influenced by these same mechanisms: since we get almost all of our information from media sources, the capitalist and AI-driven nature of those sources is already influencing how we perceive the world. things that sell, that have mass appeal, will always drown out other voices, because they're naturally preferred by capitalist logic and the memetic cluster**** that is the internet. everything: traditional media, the internet, fashion, language, is to some or lesser degree subject to the logic of "what sells and spreads". hence, everything we're confronted with in our daily lives is to a severe degree based on that logic. we're not merely talking about people in echochambers here, but literally everyone is subject to that. we're subject to the same self-enforcing mechanism that any crackpot conspiracy theorist is. what you take in sets the scope of what you think about to a significant degree. all the categories of human mind are largely influenced by what we're confronted with daily. and what we see on the web, in movies, even on the streets, is largely influenced by both capitalist logic and big data.

nice you mention the panopticon, but I think you're a few centuries late. you might be interested in what Foucault had to say about it, he outlined the society of control better than anyone else. most contemporary thinkers nowadays see ourselves as even beyond that, or probably more correct: deeper than that. the difference between the disciplinary society (prussian schooling and military systems for ex.), the control society (the panopticon prison) and our society, a society of hyperralism, nudging and voluntary enslavement was already evident to thinkers in the 80s and 90s, who weren't even largely familiar with algorhithms, but perfectly predicted their dominance (for reference: baudrillard).
 
'How society could be fixed".
You referring to your Pol Pot by way of Thomas the Tank Engine plan to make us all live in new-built Dubrovnik's and drive golf carts in winter, or your plan to turn urban areas into racially-divided Bantustans?
Or is it just referring to your ideas to ban gay people in public?

It is kind of interesting that one of our most fervent authoritarian state supporting posters started this thread, isn't it?
 
You're right about the authoritarianism, because we're going to get better and better at writing algorithms that analyse people's belief and behaviours. And we do have a trendline of handing authority and sovereignty to entities we deem 'legitimate'. So, once that entity hacks things so that we can become increasingly complacent, it's a bit of a runaway problem. There's a lot of authortarianism in people, just waiting to be convinced that they're allowed to unleash it.

Fully agree. This is already happening in both Poland and Ukraine, where people willingly (nudged by their both state and algorhithm controlled media) and democratically voted straight into strongman authoritarianism. they're rewriting the government and constitutions as we speak.

there won't be a second Reichstagsbrand, nor will there be SA thugs roaming the streets to surpress voters. Just a lot of passive, sedated people voting for their own downfall.
 
I assume that if my postings have already drawn the attention of the authorities they've already pegged me accurately as someone who talks big but doesn't actually do anything in real life, so I'm not too worried.
 
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