Could someone tell me where did I go wrong here?

[Rocker69]

I'm one of those people who flood this forum about not being able to win in Noble. I've tried like 20 plays and still nothing. I've been reading the forum, the articles, everything I can regarding this. So, last night, I played with the Aztecs (love Agg/Spi) and...it was the closest I ever got from a win. Close, but no cigar.

Here's an overview of the game: it's a custom game with 5 AI Civ's and no vassal state (absolutely HATE this thing). I got some pretty sweet resources from the start, like wine, stone, marble, iron, copper, incense, etc. I was also able to build a lot of wonders (I know it's not that important, but since I got stone and marble they were coming rather easily, so why not?). I was not focusing on military in the beginning because I was aiming for research and did not want to get bogged down my mil cost.

The Chinese, my neighbours, were able to build more cities than me (as the AI in Noble always does) so I knew eventually I was going to have to take the fight to them if I wanted a shot at winning this thing.

So I waited until I had Artillery and went for it. It was tough but I was able to take 3 cities from them. If it were up to me I'd continue the war but my people were awfully unhappy...I even built Jails and changed to Police State to see if I could change the situation. But no, so I decided to give the war a pause (after bribing China 400GP...they were really upset about losing those cities).

And as I was getting ready for round 2 what do you know: Gengis Khan decided to invade me from overseas. And my military was still weak from the war with China so...that's it. I got pissed off and went to sleep.

Now, I know the game is not lost...it just got way more difficult, as I did not prepare my naval units for an attack overseas and most of my coastal cities are fairly unprotected. Plus Victoria has 40 cities!!! There's no way I can win this thing now, I suppose.

I just wanted to hear some opinions regarding this. I didn't think I played bad at all, but maybe I made some wrong choices (like not having a GP farm, even though, with all the wonders I had, I was putting out GP quite frequently). Or maybe I made some mistakes with diplomacy. Just looking forward to different perspectives from it. I think I'm getting close to a Noble win.

PS: this was an Auto save, so I'm not sure, I think this was 2 turns before Gengis invaded me.

 

[Jerrymander]

I was not focusing on military in the beginning because I was aiming for research and did not want to get bogged down my mil cost.

Here, and

The Chinese, my neighbours, were able to build more cities than me (as the AI in Noble always does)

here.

 

[Rocker69]

Here, and



here.

No and no. Not building enough military in the beginning was not a problem...there was no point to it, I wasn't planning for an early war. And I was still able to cripple China once I invaded them.

As for cities, it's nearly impossible to beat the AI in Noble and onwards when it comes to expansion. They expand extremely fast because they have some early advantages. Still, China only had 3 cities more than me. And there was nothing I could do about Victoria and her 40 cities.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

A slightly different opinion from the above

The Chinese, my neighbours, were able to build more cities than me (as the AI in Noble always does)

Problem #1. Remember, on Noble, you are essentially at even parity with the AI. And you're smarter than a box of rocks, right? So you should still be able to stay ahead.

so I knew eventually I was going to have to take the fight to them if I wanted a shot at winning this thing.

Good!

So I waited until I had Artillery

Problem #2.

I think I'm getting close to a Noble win.

PS: this was an Auto save, so I'm not sure, I think this was 2 turns before Gengis invaded me.

Way too late to be asking for advice. Instead, ask people to help you play better on your first 100 turns.

 

[Jerrymander]

No and no. Not building enough military in the beginning was not a problem...there was no point to it, I wasn't planning for an early war. And I was still able to cripple China once I invaded them.

As for cities, it's nearly impossible to beat the AI in Noble and onwards when it comes to expansion. They expand extremely fast because they have some early advantages. Still, China only had 3 cities more than me. And there was nothing I could do about Victoria and her 40 cities.

Building units keeps the AI off your back by raising your power level. The Khan invaded because you were weak and/or you didn't manage diplomacy as optimally as you could have.

EDIT: Maybe you're right, that building units early was not necessary and it could have been unnecessary.

And warring will let you expand at another Civ's behest to reach land parity with the "super expansionist Noble AI" (are we playing the same game?) that have "special advantages". What are those advantages, by the way?

 

[Rocker69]

My mistake: I meant PRINCE, not Noble. Sorry. Am I making some sense now?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

What advantage did you get from those wonders? I mean, part of the reason why you weren't able to expand was that you had all those wonders - so are you way ahead technologically?

Vicky, of course, is imperialistic and actually does have an advantage.

I dunno - to me, you didn't really take advantage of your civs strengths. Cheap barracks, combat 1 promotions for free, free switching to better civics... why wait till artillery to attack? axes or maces are the time to go, as I see it. You can get double promoted units with theocracy or vassalage and a rax.

 

[lymond]

Rocker - I advised you a long time ago to run a shadow/learner game and you did not have the patience for it. Now you come back months later and still can't beat Prince, which is not a big step-up from Noble. Posting games in the 20th century is not the best way to learn where your faults lie.

 

[Rocker69]

What advantage did you get from those wonders? I mean, part of the reason why you weren't able to expand was that you had all those wonders - so are you way ahead technologically?

Vicky, of course, is imperialistic and actually does have an advantage.

I dunno - to me, you didn't really take advantage of your civs strengths. Cheap barracks, combat 1 promotions for free, free switching to better civics... why wait till artillery to attack? axes or maces are the time to go, as I see it. You can get double promoted units with theocracy or vassalage and a rax.

The advantage to me was GP. The more wonders you have the easier you put out GP, right? As I said, they were cheap, and they didn't hinder my expansion. I couldn't expand as fast as China because of money, as always. It gets to a point where I have to stop expansion in order for my economy to improve. I usually have to put 3 or 4 cities building wealth just so I can maintain a good rate of research and expansion.

As for artillery, I always think it's tough to go to war during medieval times. So I usually always wait until I have rifleman and cannon/artillery to wage a war, unless I'm forced into it.

 

[Rocker69]

Rocker - I advised you a long time ago to run a shadow/learner game and you did not have the patience for it. Now you come back months later and still can't beat Prince, which is not a big step-up from Noble. Posting games in the 20th century is not the best way to learn where your faults lie.

I do think it's a big step from Noble indeed. I beat around 5 games in Noble and I cannot beat one on Prince. I read articles stating that there is a big difference on how the AI behaves. They expand much faster, barbarians are waaaaay more relentless, enemy civ's are more offensive during war and they build wonders much faster as well. I mean how the heck can you build Stonehenge in the first 10 turns?

I'm not a noob, I know the game. You're right, I don't have the patience for a shadow game. If no one can give me any pointers for a late game then so be it, I'm just gonna keep trying until I get it right.

 

[vranasm]

I do think it's a big step from Noble indeed. I beat around 5 games in Noble and I cannot beat one on Prince. I read articles stating that there is a big difference on how the AI behaves. They expand much faster, barbarians are waaaaay more relentless, enemy civ's are more offensive during war and they build wonders much faster as well. I mean how the heck can you build Stonehenge in the first 10 turns?

I'm not a noob, I know the game. You're right, I don't have the patience for a shadow game. If no one can give me any pointers for a late game then so be it, I'm just gonna keep trying until I get it right.

the game is decided way before 1AD... you get advantage and proper core cities or you dont, nothing more to it. Sometimes you can screw a bit later too (like don't expanding/taking more land soon enough or something, but the basic ancient/classic part is most important).

Prince is not that big step-up since AIs still begin only with warriors so you can do some weird things like for example warrior rush securing 2 early caps without much effort.
it seems there has to be some serious fault in the beginning thinking and that is probably why everyone wants you to make proper shadow game.

edit:
or you dont need to do classical shadow, just play normally to 1AD and post screens and save... it will suffice for beginning. After you get critique you try the same map from 4k BC to 1AD again to see if you learned something

 

[Rocker69]

edit:
or you dont need to do classical shadow, just play normally to 1AD and post screens and save... it will suffice for beginning. After you get critique you try the same map from 4k BC to 1AD again to see if you learned something

Ok then, I can do that.

 

[vranasm]

btw playing on large map with just 4 more AIs isnt the best too... you increase difficulty a bit with lowering number of AIs because you allow them more cities... seeing GK with 40 cities was like "WTH?" for me...

btw from english for meager 230 gold I got complete map of the other continent...don't neglect trading for such important things

 

[lymond]

or you dont need to do classical shadow, just play normally to 1AD and post screens and save... it will suffice for beginning. After you get critique you try the same map from 4k BC to 1AD again to see if you learned something

This is not a bad idea for the less patient. Playing a save over for the first 100 turns - while getting advice - can be a great learning experience, Rocker. Here's a great quote from jesusuin, who is one of the all-time CIV4 greats:

Many players don't realise that the key to success lies in the first 20 or 50 turns of a game. You can learn more by playing 1 game and then reviewing the first 20 turns in different ways than by playing 100 games without any review.

As for your patience with shadow/learner games, and I mentioned this before but it may have been overlooked/ignored, it's not hard to just dedicate this game solely for the process of learning. Just fire up other games to play at your own speed.

 

[coanda]

First thought:

I usually have to put 3 or 4 cities building wealth just so I can maintain a good rate of research and expansion.

It's a common mistake to try to always have a "good rate of research." Frankly, research is not the be-all and end-all of Civ4. Tech trading, bulbing technologies with great people, and espionage can go a long way towards keeping you in shooting distance of the AI in techs (at least for a while) with even laughably terrible research rates.

Setting that aside, and only looking at the save you posted...
GK badly messed up his landing. He brought far too few troops, and he split his transports from his destroyers! You've got 2 destroyers just up the coast who can pick off two (presumably full-loaded) transports before he ever lands them. You've got a large army in Baoding which is perfectly capable of crushing his pitiful landing in Tula (I just did it, losing precisely one artillery to wipe out the 3 SAM infantry and 4 airships he's got parked there). You have obvious air superiority on the defensive (as once you take back Tula your 4 fighters are unopposed) which means there's no problem crushing him, and with good scouting you can probably destroy any future sorties he sends against you as well. GK declaring war on you is not a problem. Accept a neutral peace as soon as he'll give it; until then, leave his continent alone and crush any forces he sends at you while they're still on the ocean (this will require good patrolling by your destroyers, and a carrier with fighters on board would certainly help).

So that means it's not a matter of looking for survival right now, it's a matter of looking at how the AI can win and how you can.
How the AI can win:
-Diplo victory. A concern, given how buddy-buddy Mao and Genghis are and the huge size of their empire. If Genghis grows just a little at, say, Victoria's expense, you might end up losing that way. So keep an eye on relations, and if you see GK declaring war on Victoria you might want to get ready to help her out if necessary.
-Domination/Conquest. The AI isn't going to achieve this in this game. Don't worry about it.
-Space Race. Vicky has been grabbing some nice wonders recently and teching aggressively, so that's a potential threat. On the other hand, it looks like nobody has even started the run-up to a space race, so it's not exactly an urgent threat. In fact, with less than 90 turns to go and 11-12 techs needed before Vicky can even start on all the parts, it's distinctly likely that there just isn't time left for the AI to pull out a spaceship win (~60 turns teching; ~10 turns building; ~10 turns in flight = 80 turns, if everything goes smoothly for them. A little judicious espionage at the last minute could cost them any chance of launching in time).
-Cultural. Nobody else is close, and nobody is apparently even trying. Don't worry about it.
-Time. This is a concern. With the size of Genghis, if the game runs all the way out and nothing significant changes he'll win. Two options: Win before time runs out, or take over enough land from him to take the score lead.

How you can win:
-Diplo victory. Tough, but possible. Probably calls for a huge war effort against Genghis, but if you can vassalize him you've got diplo. victory practically locked up. A peaceful diplo. victory looks unlikely as long as GK is going to be the main alternate contender given current relations.
-Domination/Conquest. Probably out, with Vassals turned off. The sheer number of turns needed to march/sail to all the cities you'd need to take for a conquest or domination victory is enough that the game would probably end first.
-Space Race. Possible, but tough. Vicky has a tech lead and a production lead on you, which makes racing her for spaceships an unappealing proposition.
-Cultural. Definitely possible. You've got a lot of food in your cities, which means you can run lots of artist specialists. Stop all teching. Build wealth or wealth-generating improvements in all cities except Tlatelolco and Teotihuacan. Build culture in those two cities; run artist specialists everywhere and hope to pop at least one great artist, and you could nab a cultural victory just before time runs out (just shifting to 100% culture and building culture can give you an 89-turn countdown, ignoring the possibility of that city growing and thus running more specialists as time passes). Be sure to switch those two farmed floodplains to being worked by Tlatelolco.
-Time. Possible, but tricky. It wouldn't be too hard for you to run a drafting war at this point - switch to Nationhood + Police State, turn up the culture slider a bit to get some happiness to help offset the unhappiness of drafting, and overrun Mao. While doing that, prepare a large-ish fleet in your coastal cities. Immediately after crushing Mao and adding his cities to yours, sail out and invade Genghis. Timing would be very tight on this, as it's a big map with a lot of space to cover and you really need to crush GK fast. To that end, I'd recommend grabbing Radio while you fight Mao, and preparing bombers and fighters plus some Carriers. If you have time to grab some tanks as well, so much the better; a tank + bomber war would be a lot faster than a infantry + artillery war. If/when you pop great generals, be sure to use them to create super-medic units who can travel along with your stacks so they heal faster. Remember, you don't actually have to totally destroy them; you just have to do enough damage to put you into the lead in score. But you're on a very short clock given the distances involved and the current state of your army.

Of all these, I think Cultural is the most promising, so that's the one I'd advise you shoot for.

Oh yeah - I almost forgot. There's always the "drop and punt" option - nuclear armageddon. If you don't want to try cultural, and don't think you can get a big enough army in time to out-point them, build a large nuclear arsenal, then just before 2050 declare war on the world and nuke everyone else. Their scores plummet, game ends, you win.

 

[CornPlanter]

If no one can give me any pointers for a late game then so be it, I'm just gonna keep trying until I get it right.

People gave you the pointers, but for early game because its way more important. You dismissed many of these. Ofcourse you can keep it your way and bang the wall with your head until you actually break it (the wall, not the head). It's not that difficult on Prince. But if you really wanna learn the game you should learn to listen. Next time dont build wonders, build settlers and army. You will see, all of the sudden outexpanding AI from "nearly impossible" becomes "piece of cake".

 

[Agramon]

Actually this is just a game, if you wanna build wonders go ahead like this. If you wanna win, you better go and kick some butt.

If you don't want to stop wonder spamming, you should definitely learn WE/SSE. Read some of obsolete's industrial walkthroughs. But you'll probably fail this with cooked settings like this.