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Council of Esus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by BeijingCat08, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. BeijingCat08

    BeijingCat08 Chieftain

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    So, the Council of Esus has all this fluff about being able to 'pay for miracles' - which is barely incorporated into the game. Plus at the moment there's barely any difference between running Esus as a religion and running it as a second religion; certainly not enough to make it worth doing most of the time. Here are some suggested tweaks, all of which assume you're running Esus as your main religion -

    a) Each Nightwatch unit gives +1:). Since they're secret police, this makes sense. (Alternatively, give them Night and Fog, which lets them give +5 temporary :) to a city in return for losing a population point.)

    b) You can pay 5 :commerce: in any Esus city to convert a unit to Esus.

    c) You can pay 25 :commerce: to attempt to Dominate any friendly unit moving through your territory. (To play in to the whole betrayal theme - you switch to Esus, let your friends move through, and seduce away their units.)

    d) All the units in any Esus city can be Cured for 5 :commerce: or Healed for 20 :commerce:

    e) Mounted units get Nightride, which lets them turn invisible (until they attack) for 5 :commerce:. Fits in with the Shadowrider theme.

    f) Melee units can pay 5 :commerce: to get The Coward's Strike, giving them 50% withdrawal for a turn.

    g) Arcane units can pay 50 :commerce: to get the Misdirection promotion, which lets them create a half-strength illusion *and* a real summons whenever they cast. (I figure this has to be permanent, because otherwise you'd run into casting limits?)
     
  2. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

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    B. I can't stress how much b alone would make for me in the decision of running Council of Esus as, at least, Svartalfar. Being able to guarentee Alazkan the Assassin the Mask ability is just that important.
    Edit: To clarify - I like all, and they all should be discussed individually (Exactly how would they work, balance, etc?). I just singled out (b) as something important, that should have been added so very, very long ago. It's also been suggested before, and out of the list, I see it as the only one that could be easily incorporated without a seconds thought.
     
  3. Verdian

    Verdian Chieftain

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    I agree that (b) should be added. But, it would not fix the problem of Esus being a second religion. People would just switch religions, pay to make their recon units Esus, and then switch back. I would like to see a civic attached to Esus (perhaps Consumption) or Shadows made a religious unit that abandons you when you change religions.
     
  4. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Chieftain

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    Actually, I think c) would be pretty nice, I mean if they're already in your land... Civ II had this option actually, the "diplomat" unit could bribe other units which was quite cool and historically accurate (relatively, it was known to happen that defenders would betray their keeps for bribes). However, the cost should be upped to 125 gold and have a 50% chance of failure and no more than 1 attempt per turn per unit. Also, it would make loyalty more worthwhile. To be honest, I don't get why this option isn't available in BTS, as it was a neat feature in civ II.
     
  5. PaleJackal

    PaleJackal Chieftain

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    Actually, the cost to seduce a unit away should possibly be based on strength, possibly with some lower cap to prevent low strength units from being really easy to dominate. Take level into account.

    Though I do know that the 'Diplomat - Bribe' feature in Rome: Total War was absolutely broken if you actually used it.

    I also think it'd be hideously unfun if FFH2 was played in a multiplayer versus fashion, but I doubt that's common, so feel free. :p I just think a great deal of caution should be used in implementing the feature.
     
  6. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 Chieftain

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    E would certainly make the shadowriders more interesting. They are about the only thing aside from Gibbon that you get for taking it as a state religion. Some extra abilities would really help them be more useful then just a brute force unit.
    Brute force and Essus...doesn't seem right.
    I like F a lot too. It would certainly be a new way to weaken enemy units without having to lose too much fodder.
     
  7. Lemminkäinen

    Lemminkäinen Chieftain

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    Personally, I like A, B, E and F. C and G seem like they would be hard to balance right and D is very minor.

    CoE is really weird, all in all, though. It offers minimal bonuses for adopting it and the biggest, Gibbon, dies after doing his greatest trick so staying in Esus after that seems like a pretty bad deal. The only redeeming thing is basically the betrayal of allowing units to stay inside enemy borders after declaring war, which is immensely useful in some situations.
     
  8. Honor

    Honor Immortal

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    if the costs doubled, or at least scaled with difficulty/map size these suggestions would be more balanced IMO.
     
  9. loffenx

    loffenx Chieftain

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    This one I like, I'd also like them to have the Inquisition promotion, or be able to get it, which would make sense from both a balance and a lore perspective IMO.


    The most important fix Esus needs.

    The rest seem a bit cheap IMO. But the two above would go a long way to improve Esus.
     
  10. cabbagemeister

    cabbagemeister Please wait...

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    I really like all of these ideas except for c), which seems like it would be far to difficult to make the AI understand how to avoid it. My only concern is that the costs listed are all extremely cheap. 5:gold: for a very strong promotion? 50:gold: for a very strong PERMANENT promotion? Even with a decent-sized army, that's just one tick on the commerce slider to get the required income. I think the god Esus would not be satisfied with such puny sacrifices. I'd suggest multiplying all your suggested :gold: costs by 10, at least.
     
  11. xalien

    xalien Chieftain

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    It would be nice but it should cost a lot, and I mean a LOT more than 5:commerce: .

    Turning invisible before attack is a unique ability of Sidar and Illian assassins, so handing it out to any civ that runs CoE is not something that is going to happen, ever.
     
  12. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Make it a religious building called the Shadowed Court or something. Provides a small amount of gold and happiness and allows units in the city to cast some spells.

    Induct into Council - 25 gold
    Heal - available only to Esus units - 10 gold - heals 75% of remaining damage, removes bad promotions - cost increases by 20 each time you use it within a turn (so its cheap to use a little, but no healing your uberstacks). So, cost will reset every new turn.
     
  13. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    Not consumption, something else. A whole new civic related to crime rates.
     
  14. PapaMonkey

    PapaMonkey Chieftain

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    What always bugs me with Esus is the lack of healing while on the offensive. Defensively in your cities you can have herbalists, Inns, etc... But the lack of a priest really hinders your offensive healing. And curing is pretty much out entirely. It forces you to use Esus as a secondary religion so that you build up a few priest level units and then switch.
     
  15. Rystic

    Rystic Turtle Wizard

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    I would be okay with that if we got something else in return, like espionage. I always had this idea of Esus fighting 'hidden' wars.

    Also, Esus should be made more secretive. Right now Esus doesn't show up on the side bar, but it does in diplomacy (if you look in the top-left corner). You should be allowed to choose a 'fake' religion to come up for your civ.
     
  16. Luckmann

    Luckmann Esusian Epicure

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    That'd be very neat. A popup when choosing Esus, asking you what religion you want to masquerade as. :D
     
  17. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Chieftain

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    Well considering the fact that the Civ II AI could handle it, and domination is already in the game, I don't really see associated AI problems. You could, I suppose, implement a code wherein the AI only opens borders with you if it is pleased/friendly with you (i.e. it trusts you and you may be less likely to betray it in order to preserve relations with a trade partner). I just think that if Esus is to be altered (and it does need a buff, though FFH is in feature lock, maybe a change can be implemented in FF), it should be an alteration that would make it worthwhile compared to other religions.
     
  18. Brokenbone

    Brokenbone Chieftain

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    Lots of neat ideas.

    I wonder how many people would try out Esus if Shadows were an Esus exclusive?

    Alternately, if Shadows had to remain "open to everyone", some other invisibility power (or promo) might be interesting strictly available to those running Esus... whether it's something paid for on use, or otherwise.
     
  19. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    This.

    No single, static amount, is going to be universally right.

    The cost for a unit should depend on a combination of level, AND strength.
    World units, and units with the Loyalty promotion, should be unbribeable.

    National Units should have a double cost to what they should have from their strength, since their nation places a lot of trust and responsibility.

    Maybe a formula something like...

    (Basestrength*20)*(1+(level*0.3))

    Base strength would include weapons, heroic strength promos, etc. but not modifier promos like Combat.
    Where a unit has a different attack and defense strength, the average of the two would be used.

    So, an axeman with Bronze weapons(str 5), at level 4, would cost...

    (5*20) * (1+(4*0.3))
    100 * (1+1.2)
    100 * 2.2
    220 :gold:

    Would that be too much?
    Maybe the strength multiplier could only be 10, or levels could be given more weight, etc.

    My general point, is that math and formulae are the "right" way to do this kind of things, because there is no one size fits all solution, except that which adapts to the circumstances.
     
  20. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Would give some meaning to Law I: Loyalty.
     

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