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Countering a Samurai rush

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Mango201, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    I'm playing as Russia in multiplayer (vanilla civ 6) and have Japan as my closest neighbor. My friend is in the ancient era - and based on his sci/turn, probably about 15 turns away from being able to build Samurai, which will probably take another 10-15 turns to build and mobilize.

    I don't have any iron, but I could mine one if its crucial to my survival (side question - where can I find out the exact strategic resource requirement for units - most sources I look at will say for example that a horseman requires horses, but neglect to mention that it actually quires two unless you have an encampment).

    I'm slightly ahead in tech and making almost double the sci/turn. I'm thinking crossbowmen behind city walls. Thoughts?
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    yeah Xbow s are the answer, GG are the big difference in a showdown of this type. Walls certainly help.
     
  3. riddleofsteel

    riddleofsteel Office Linebacker

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    That and raiding / pillaging to knock their economy on its ass couldn't hurt.
     
  4. CPWimmer

    CPWimmer Chieftain

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    So, based on this question, i am assuming that you are playing Vanilla or R&F (not GS).
    In pre-GS games, all units that require resources require that you have access to 2 of them, unless you have an Encampment. In that case they will only require access to 1 copy of the required resource to build in that specific city with the Encampment. There is no link between total # of units and total # of resources if you don't have the GS expansion.
     
  5. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    Yup, like I said, I'm playing vanilla. Thanks for the answer - so it looks like stretching to get one iron doesn't really help me.

    Any early signs I could look for to tell me if he's getting Samurai or planning aggression in general?
     
  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    If your cities are too close to his capital I believe there is little you can do to stop some conflict.
    Diplomacy wise if they dislike or denounce you, are friends with your enemies and just generally dislike then these do not help.
    The feral rule is if you are too close and/or they are constrained for expansion they will need to go one way.
    The best way in vanilla to avoid the confrontation is to get walls in your closest cities and have some army.
     
  7. Naeshar

    Naeshar Chieftain

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    Xbowmen are probably the safest defense. You would want an encampment located in a good congestive spot, but only if you have the time. I noted it is MP and your friend is probably going to attack. In that case you want to make his progress slow and miserable with little to pillage.
     
  8. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    Does anyone know the formula for city defense? I was thinking I could keep myself one turn away from completing Cartography so that I can jump into the Renaissance era in short notice to upgrade my city strength. Would this make any significant difference?

    I spawned near Tandra (Russia spawn bias), and he spawned on the middle of the continent. This means the only way I can expand is towards him, which I have done, while he can either expand towards me, or away from me, so far he seems to be expanding laterally. Our closest cities are about 10 tiles away.

    Like I said, this is a multiplayer game (there are no AIs other than city states). Does a warmonger penalty actually do anything to human players? If not then why would anyone ever denounce you? Why not surprise war every time?

    I don't actually know if my friend will attack me. So far he hasn't been militarizing. But he might be waiting for Samurai tech before doing so. He seems to be saving his gold which is worrying.
     
  9. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Chieftain

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    Spoiler There are two kinds of civs :


     
  10. S1AL

    S1AL Chieftain

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    City strength is based on:

    The highest combat strength of any unit you've ever produced -10 (not counting air)

    The strength of the unit currently in the city (if it exceeds the above)

    Then that base is adjusted based on number of districts, presence of Victor, policy cards, walls, etc.
     
    Babri likes this.
  11. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    How does it work with ranged units. Melee or ranged strength?
     
  12. S1AL

    S1AL Chieftain

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    City melee strength is based on highest melee combat strength. City ranged strength is based on highest ranged strength of any unit.

    So Knight and Archer is 38+X city (48+X if Knight is garrisoned) and 25 ranged. Upgrade to Crossbow and ranged city strength becomes 40.
     
  13. Jarms48

    Jarms48 Chieftain

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    Rush knights if you can get iron. Rush crossbows if you can’t get iron. Build encampments and walls if you don’t think your units will be enough.

    Remember to use your policy cards and pre-build heavy chariots or archers depending on the route you go. Upgrading costs less resources in vanilla. Having the conscription policy also means any archers and heavy chariots you pre-build will cost you no upkeep.

    Also remember to use terrain advantages if you can. Put units in woods / jungles / hills / across rivers. Try and focus on complete kills as the samurai still does full damage when wounded.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  14. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    Also defender of the faith is godly in vanilla. Your playing as Russia so I assume you got the first religion? What did you pick as religious beliefs?
    Where abouts are you in the tech tree? Because if you are anywhere near Cossacks they will annihilate your friend whether he starts the war or not. ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2019
  15. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    I want your friend to win with his samurai...is that wrong?
     
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  16. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    Yes because Russia is my favourite civ and I want them to win! XD
     
  17. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Preemptive strike with horsemen. Pillage the crap out of his empire. Mess with him for a while to delay his rush. Tech up to and use gold from pillaging to build crossbows. Hopefully you've slowed or at least reduced his effectiveness to the point where he can't bring more than a few Samurai. From here work towards your own UU and can smack him down with Cossacks. I'm assuming quick or online speed right? Survive with enough productivity and Cossacks will wind up making a far biggDr impact than slow moving hard built Samurai.
     
  18. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    I only have access to one iron so I'll be getting Crossbows.

    So that will mean a city melee strength of 30-10=20 + modifiers. Samurai are at 48. So it looks like l'll get munched w/o walls. A few more questions:
    1. The melee/ranged strength is only increased by units produced in that city or in any city?
    2. Do gold/faith purchases count as producing a unit for this purpose?
    3. Does upgrading a unit increase city strength?
    4. You mentioned garrisoning a melee unit ads +10 to the melee strength. Does garrisoning a Crossbow add to the melee strength too or only to the ranged.
    5. I assume all this also applies to city states? I was under the impression that city state strength was determined by the world era, but from what you're saying it seems like only the animation of the defending units changes. The actual values are determined by the units it has produced? I suppose indirectly the world era gets city states to produce more advanced units?
    6. Would it make sense to produce one Pikeman, sure the Samurai will obliterate it in combat but it may be the only way to raise my cities melee strength enough.
    7. Any thoughts on whether forts can help me? What is the effect of gaining 2 turns of fortification?
    Side note: Since my single iron is not useful, can I harvest it? If not, can I build a district on it? Ditto for my single horses tile?

    All great advice. Thanks! I'm a little gold poor, so it might make more sense to produce the Crossbows rather than upgrade them from archers - especially if it increases my city strength as mentioned above.

    That would have been smart. I have the first and only religion right now. I got Jesuit Education :undecide:. At the time I was just realizing that a RV is basically impossible in MP, so I wanted a boost to a CV/SV. In retrospect I should have been more concerned with defense. I've teched to engineering. My friend is still in the ancient era. Based on his sci/turn it will probably take him 10-15 turns to get to Samurai once he hits Classical. I'm teching at twice his speed right now but even so I'm not sure I could get to Cossacks before him. I'd have to be two whole eras ahead. I might be able to get to Musketmen but its a bit of a gamble that I'll find the niter, and if I don't I will have wasted quite a bit of science getting to military engineering.

    Lol... I hope to bitterly disappoint you :)

    Only got one horse. I didn't have the best luck with resources. Yes, online speed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  19. Forster

    Forster Chieftain

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    If you get an encampment up, you can use that one iron to build swordsmen and knights, don't harvest it. Any city with an encampment can build units if your civ has only i resource.
     
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  20. Mango201

    Mango201 Chieftain

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    Hmmm, good point. Just out of curiosity, can you harvest strategics like iron and horses (is there a source that shows the yields for doing so?), or build districts over them?
     

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