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Couple thoughts on patch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by futurehermit, Sep 16, 2007.

  1. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Overall, I think the patch looks great. There are some things I really like.

    However, a couple of things concern me:

    1) Spies now only reduce towns to villages, etc. instead of completely wiping them out. A number of people have been advocating this change on these forums. However, tell me this: Who will actually do this!!! Who in their right mind is going to march a spy all the way into rival territory, spend espionage points, take the town down to a village, have their spy go all the way back to their capital, and then march their spy all the way back again? If opposing civs are running emancipation, the situation gets even worse as regrowth is faster. It would take you a lot of spies to have any impact whatsoever to an opponent's economy. My thoughts: I think if people considered this overpowered (I did not) then the cost should have been increased. Now I can't see myself ever using this feature.

    2) AI will now build MORE UNITS early on and be more aggressive. While in theory I like this because it will provide more of a challenge, I am worried about the impact on the AI economy. Spending less on espionage, and being more likely to steal tech, will help out, but a number of us have been worried about the AI building more units than it can manage already and if it's building more that could only compound the problem.

    Thoughts?

    ps., glad to see corporate inflation is fixed. that will help a lot.
     
  2. 18lama

    18lama Warlord

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    ^ on marathon speeds Agg AI is already spamming units. What is the need for more early units, I reall don't understand. Maybe it is there to make axeman/swordsman rush more difficult.
     
  3. Solver

    Solver Grumpy Civ beta tester

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    That's my change. So let me explain the logic to you. You can still use Spies to harm an enemy economy in that way, you just need multiple Spies at once. You can't hit the enemy indiscriminately, but you can still do it, for example, to a top science city. The sabotage improvement mission is cheap. So is it too weak now? I don't think so, you can still find many uses for it. But okay, it's weaker.

    The point is, it just can't be any other way around. That is not at all balanced. Let me quote an explanation from earlier:

    There is no way robbing an enemy of at least 140 commerce, and potentially twice as much, with a single espionage mission is balanced. Particularly when said mission is likely to cost even less than that.

    I had programmed the AI to sometimes destroy Towns through espionage before that. After having a few Towns destroyed completely by the AI, it became pretty obvious that this isn't right.
     
  4. elder abuser

    elder abuser Old People Fear Me

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    Say, where do you read of this patch?
     
  5. Empiremaker

    Empiremaker Human Fish

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    Look at the stickied thread at the top of the BtS forum. Alexman started the thread.
     
  6. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    I, for one, am glad to hear of these changes for the same reasons Solver is.

    As for number two, I already have a hard enough time keeping up on tech on higher levels, so this only makes me happier. :lol:
     
  7. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    While the first point I consider a non issue (it's just bringing it in line with other town destroying mechanisms), this one could be problematic. The AI tech pace is already fairly poor in normal mode, and plain dire in aggressive mode. Pushing unit spam even higher is just going to make matters worse. I really should not be able to out tech the AI in the Classical age at Immortal, and 90% of AIs seem to seize up completely in aggressive mode. I certainly don't want to see them crippled like that in normal mode.
     
  8. Virulent

    Virulent King

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    The only problem I have with spies that even with Commando they move slowly on large maps. I wonder if giving them 2 moves (like pre-BTS spies) would be unbalanced?
     
  9. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    My point is who in their right mind is going to use spies in this way? So now I have to use 4 spies at a time * 10+ towns = 40+ spies to decimate 1 out of 10+ commerce cities in an enemy empire.

    Now let's say this enemy empire (your main space race rival) is overseas...good luck with that.

    Prior to this patch I've used this feature effectively, but it still required a LOT of tedious micromanaging and a HUGE amount of spies.

    Now it is just not going to be something that I (or most people I would imagine) am going to do.

    Can anyone state with confidence that they are going to do this?

    Instead they should have just (substantially if necessary) increased the cost. That way if you distribute a lot of your economy to espionage you still have the option to do a lot of damage. The way it has been changed only makes it incredibly tedious and when I'm playing to have fun I'm not going to do something so incredibly tedious.
     
  10. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    Well... I mean, how often have enemy spies in history bombed a town and turned it into plain rubble? You shouldn't be able reproduce it regularly--isn't that the idea?
     
  11. mice

    mice Moose

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    Solver's reply about commerce for espionage points is interesting, and it ties into posts about spending commerce on the esp. slider to get techs (without great spy) at a cheaper rate than using the tech slider, for example having the same religion,trade routes,five turns sitting there, can give you cheaper tech for your commerce.

    So it gets complex trying to find a commerce for beakers rate for spys.

    The issue , as FH said, is micromanagement. There's too much of it.

    I think the solution is to up the price and be able to take out a town is the most sensible. Also give us some automate buttons for spys.
     
  12. GenocideBringer

    GenocideBringer King

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    Ever consider that, maybe, perhaps, you weren't meant to be able to completely and totally decimate the enemy's economy with spies :rolleyes:

    No, seriously, imagine the AI doing this to you. You're sitting there, then one day all the towns in your empire get blown away, and you're . .. .. .. .ed. That's balanced :crazyeye:
     
  13. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    My point is that they should make it more expensive, NOT more tedious for the player.

    Why would I care about taking a town down to a village??? What kind of impact is that going to have???
     
  14. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Its going to lower their money. And like others have said, taking a town down to nothing is IMBALANCED. It takes far too long to recover from it.
     
  15. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

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    Spending that much to simply lower their income by 1 coin seems like an extreme waste of EPs. I mean, if you want to keep it balanced, why not simply increase the cost to 4x what it is now (to simulate doing it separately with 4 spies)? It's the exact same net effect, but with 1/4 the micromanaging tedium.

    Bh
     
  16. 0R4NG3

    0R4NG3 Prince

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    I agree with futurehermit on this one. I also think that it will be too tedious to destroy towns. I suggest either giving spies 2 movement or not returning them to capital after mission completion. Frankly returning to capital doesn't make any sense anyway: if it takes 6 turns for a spy to get to his target why does it only take 1 turn to return to the capital?
     
  17. GenocideBringer

    GenocideBringer King

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    It will lower their commerce. If they just raised the price, all it would mean is the player needs to spend slightly more commerce in espionage to totally and unavoidably annihilate the target's economy.

    want to destroy a whole town? Fine, then get four spies. Want to completely and totally cripple the AI's economy by destroying every single town in their empire? You're not supposed to be able to do that

    You grossly underestimate the impact it can have when multiplied by all the buildings/wonders they might have.
     
  18. 0R4NG3

    0R4NG3 Prince

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    That's why there is counter-espionage, which prevents spies from carrying out their missions, if the AI doesn't spend enough points on espionage then it deserves to have its economy destroyed. If we are not supposed to be able to do that why is it in the game?

    "spend slightly more commerce in espionage to totally and unavoidably annihilate the target's economy." - in my games I can never afford to spend any commerce on espionage, because doing so will make me fall behind in tech.
     
  19. GenocideBringer

    GenocideBringer King

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    I never said you weren't supposed to do it, I said you weren't supposed to be able to cripple an AI into submission with it.

    Counter espionage/spending a crapload on espionage points (and trying to GUESS who might send spies at them so they can divy up their EPs) should not be the only thing standing between the AI and total annihilation.
     
  20. 0R4NG3

    0R4NG3 Prince

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    It's not guessing, the EP ratio is there for a reason, and I think AI knows how to interpret it and what steps to take.

    Actually, I wouldn't mind the change if the spies wouldn't have to return to the capital after completing their mission.
     

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