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Couple thoughts on patch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by futurehermit, Sep 16, 2007.

  1. Lanth

    Lanth Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
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    I have a solution.

    The main complaint is about the tedium of having to move your spies back and forwards so many times. So simply remove that from the equation.

    The cost and success numbers here are made up, but you get the idea:

    Old: 1 spy op, cost 100 gold, 80% chance of success, will destroy 4 levels of town improvement

    New: 1 spy op, cost 100 gold, 80% chance of success, will destroy 1 level of town improvment, if last op was successful it will repeat the op until unsuccessful or the town is gone or you have no gold left.

    So, you send your spy to the town, you execute the mission - 80% chance of taking it from a Town to a Village. The Village isn't gone yet and the last operation was successsful and you still have gold, so the next mission is automatically carried out - 80% chance of reducing it to a Hamlet. Rinse and repeat until the town is completely gone.

    This gives you all the benefits of both sides:
    * Cost has been increased (up to 4xcost if all 4 missions are successful)
    * You are no longer gauranteed to destroy a Town in 1 hit - you may only get it down to a Village or Hamlet before your spy is caught
    * There is no tedious walking all over the map required just to get rid of an improvement

    At the 80%/success factor, you've got a 40.96% chance of taking out a town in 1 hit, 51.2% chance of taking it to a cottage, 64% to a hamlet and obviously 80% to a village.

    This still makes this a useful mission, but it's fairer than simply raising the cost to 4x the original amount (because in that case you might pay 400 gold and have your spy captured - under this scheme you would only pay a maximum of 100 gold in that case).
     
  2. SevenSpirits

    SevenSpirits Immortal?

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    Why would you ever need to SPEND EPs to hurt their economy, when just having EPs against them causes the AI to try to match your points, spending extra money if necessary?

    I dunno. Personally I would never use any of the missions that aren't "reduce defenses to zero" or "steal tech" unless it was a two-player game, and I am unlikely to play civ with just two players.

    I am also quite worried about the increased number of units built. They already build more than necessary.
     
  3. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    does spy cost money as military units? if they do, it would be too expansive to support one spy to sabbotage only one commerce each time.
     
  4. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Sage

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    Just the thought of some spy completely eliminating a whole town of people instantly seems...out of place.
     
  5. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    First of all gameplay > realism

    Second of all, I also forgot to mention that, yes, requiring 4x more spies to take out a town will mean that more of them are going to be caught, which means that overall you are going to need even more spies!!!

    Tedium in the extreme.
     
  6. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

    Joined:
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    1) I disagree with - having to walk your spy back is far less of an inconvenience than having to rebuild a hamlet and wait for it to become a town again.... the relative cost was absurdly improportionate before. Also, you could just march 4 spies over at the same time.

    Personally, I'd rather see that entire mission removed anyway because it's just too gamey. I like a sprinkle of historical basis for my enjoyment of civ.

    2) Agreed. I really dont know if this is going to balance out with other modifications to the game, but at present, adding more troops to the AI's expenses is contrary to what it needs in my opinion. I have seen the AI run itself into the ground too many times on troop and espionage spending.
     
  7. ShannonCT

    ShannonCT Deity

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    Spy reducing town to village is still not a bad investment of EPs in certain cases.

    If a civ has discovered Printing Press and is running Free Speech but not Emancipation:
    1) Reducing a Town reduces the tile's commerce per turn by 3 for 40 turns, for a total loss of 120 commerce over 40 turns (which could mean a loss of 200+ gold/beakers depending on bonuses).
    2) Reducing a Town and a Village reduces the tile's commerce per turn by 5 for 20 turns and then 3 for 40 more turns, for a total loss of 220 commerce over 60 turns.

    Civs running Emancipation lose only half as much.

    I would still use this mission on any civ using free speech, but target the cities with the greatest gold and beaker multipliers.
     
  8. Cookie Crumbs

    Cookie Crumbs Emperor

    Joined:
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    Cristo Redentor seems completely useless now if you're Spiritual. They should have made it grant Spiritual civs the original effect, and give the 1-turn wait for non-Spiritual ones.

    Is it possible to program the AI to abuse the Cristo Redentor the way humans do? That would technically remove the exploit aspect of it.

    Otherwise, the patch looks good. I'm very pleased with the colonial expense cap and the boost given to Custom Houses.
     
  9. Virulent

    Virulent King

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    Even Spiritual leaders have to wait 5 turns before switching civics so Cristo is still useful to them. (ie switch to Slavery whip a few defenders and switch back to emancipation the next turn).

    The change simply turns Cristo from completely overpowered to just really good.
     
  10. peter450

    peter450 Prince

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    Sep 24, 2006
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    The increase in AI unit spend at the start is important, it means the AI will not be so easy to rush, an will defend it's early expansion better, I prefer the normal AI to AGG since stacks of 70+ units suck all the fun out of war, i'd rather build 30 units an face 30 units than have to build 70 an face 70, the stacks later in the game can get quite big even on normal AI, however the one downside with normal was it was to easy to rush the AI early, an this flaw has been addressed so pleased on that.

    I still would have liked to see agg civ's on normal AI behave more like they do on agg though, (although maybe not go quite so crazy on unit numbers & supersized stacks as they do in this mode), what i mean by this is placing a higher emphasis on things like domination victory, or conquest victory, which in AGG AI the emphasis on winning like this is increased, this would help give the differant civ personalities more flavour.

    Thing on the spying is more complex a town is like any other improvement gameplay wise, so taking out a town because it takes so long to get back, is always going to beat taking out a mine (unless ur in the middle of a war an it's a resouce mine), perhaps spies could remain in place after sabotage missions but require a cool down period before another attempt can be made, an if an attempt was made before the cooldown period expired a penatly modifier could be applied to the success chances, this would help cut down the micromanagement of running back an fourth over long distances to get spies in place
     
  11. Wade.

    Wade. Chieftain

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    I haven't registered with "Apolyton Civilization Site Forums" at apolyton.net/forums, but why is the v3.13 change list there incomplete?

    I only scanned it but it is missing the changes for the various official mods. This came to my attention because I'm interested in the fixed Next War epic. I wonder if many people there that don't visit here even know of these missing items in their list.
     
  12. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    And most civs at a certain point in the game will be running emancipation. Combined with the fact that the good espionage buildings aren't available until democracy/communism and you get a very limited window where you are able to make extensive use of this feature. Making it much more tedious will only combine to make it less often used.

    I personally wonder if all the people defending this change have ever actually used this feature extensively and whether they can honestly say they will make extensive use of it (i.e., plan a strategy around it to say hinder a space race rival) in their upcoming games.
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    It seems, that now the better strategy is to eliminate buildings in the target city...if you have a city with 5 towns, and all the premodrn multipliers ( Market,Grocer, Bank, Lib, Uni, Obs) then hitting the buildings is probably better than hitting the Towns.
     
  14. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

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    The only time I'd even consider using a spy to destroy an improvement is if it's a vital resource that the AI only has one of. Otherwise, what's the point? Spending EPs on something the AI can rebuild/recover from in a few turns is pointless. The AI does that a lot to me now... Oh, wow, my cow pasture was destroyed. Guess I'll have to spend the 4 turns rebuilding it. Gee, that really hurt.

    Bh
     
  15. Gyprsn

    Gyprsn Warlord

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    I just am not to happy with the espionage system whatsoever :/ This just makes the situation worse. I would like to use spies more often, but I just don't find it's worth it. I build a spy, it takes 247868735 turns to reach the enemy. Then if the mission fails, it was a waste of time, and even if it was successful, I'll need to make the 247868735 turn journey again. It's just not fun to me. Destroying towns, however, did force me to actually pay attention to espionage, but after this patch it will just be pointless.

    The whole espionage system just seems to be making less sense because of things like this, in multiplayer almost NO ONE uses espionage because of the tedium involved with moving spies (first of all) and the fact that everyone is too concentrated on tech and military. However, since spies in the current BtS version can destroy towns, and no one pays attention to espionage, I try to use this to my advantage, which, as a result, forces others to use the EP slider. What's the point of espionage if you can easily go an entire game without building a single spy? Or maybe even without touching the espionage screen? There is no point to add a feature to a game that many people don't use at the moment, then do something ridiculous like make it weaker. That's discouraging the use of a feature that cost money to implement.

    In this case, Fun > Realism, and adding uselessness to a feature is anti-fun. The price for the mission should have just been increased.
     
  16. Hawaiian

    Hawaiian Sage

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    What would make spies more worth it is if they could investigate cities like in the good old days.
     
  17. DrJambo

    DrJambo Crash-test dummy

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    But then that would also increase the cost by x4 for destroying a farm or a mine. If, on the other hand, it's possible to separate costs for destroying towns and farms/mines, then this is OK.

    Like others, I prefer to see more effective espionage that's more expensive and requires less micro, rather than 'annoying' espionage that's cheap and requires massive amounts of micro.
     
  18. lulu135

    lulu135 Warlord

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    Here's a crazy thought... why not just eliminate the "return to capital" and let spies keep running around until they are caught. Make the stationary spy discount reset to 0 after each mission, and also maybe increase the getting caught chance to balance it.
     
  19. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

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    I can't see why it wouldn't be possible. It's pretty trivial to check the improvement of the plot that a unit is standing on. Scaling the cost to the improvement should also be simple.

    For me, I'm mostly focused on the usefulness of it. I rarely use spying at this point because so many of the options aren't really useful (barring the early GS, steal tech approach). Destroying one level of a cottaged tile very quickly joins the "useless" pile, imo. Heck, even destroying a full town isn't something I'd often consider, but I can see it being potentially useful under certain circumstances (trying to peacefully stop an AI from some victory condition).

    Bh
     
  20. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Exactly
    (10Chars)
     

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