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Courthouses and the organized trait

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sero Sed Serio, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. SnowlyWhite

    SnowlyWhite Emperor

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    anyone with sankore and ap being of correct religion... If you can get sm for sure, it's better then lib. Leaving aside you usually don't have to sacrifice lib for dr, leaving aside it's more expensive then guilds/engineering, so you can backfill very well with dr without sacrificing a monopoly on edu.
     
  2. Sero Sed Serio

    Sero Sed Serio Chieftain

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    There are two or three posts in this thread that have really irked me. Primarily this one, but I'll point out the others shortly.

    The reason is that I play standard maps on normal speed at prince difficulty. I always win, these days, and I need to move to monarch, but that's a different thread. My point is that even when I have fifteen cities and they all are huge, maintenance isn't an issue: I'm a cottage FIEND, especially when I'm financial, but even when I'm not. I usually mix specialists and cottages but my backbone is cottages.

    That being said, you're saying courthouses are a necessity, but I find myself with gobs of gold and science by the medieval era simply by cottaging and making sure my cottage cities have enough food and happiness. Once hereditary rule comes in it's GG most of the time. Money has never been a problem for me.

    I do use slavery. I'm not sure why you assume I don't. The bottom line is that the hammers it takes to build a non-organized trait leader's courthouse still makes it expensive, whether you're paying in citizens or hammers.

    This is what I normally run into: A city has a maint of 6. The city is relatively large for the era, and running a number of cottages. Why would I whip and lose a specialist or two, or two cottage tiles, for 3 gold per turn? I understand if you're just farming a plains tile or working a forested flatland that it's worthwhile, but even then you're losing trade revenue and the potential to work soon to be upgraded tiles.

    Prince difficulty. Maintenance is almost never an issue and I don't like spending 2-3 citizens or 10-15 turns saving (in the case of 10-15 cities) 30 to 45 gold per turn when I could be earning much more in beakers or even gold by building multipliers or working towards a GP and increasing science/gold income with specialists.

    I guess the title of the thread should've been "Courthouses at prince and monarch level, while using slavery" or something. =P

    After this thread I'm going to add to my sig "I am very aware of the usefulness of slavery and use it to progress my low production, high commerce/food cities appropriately. I also REX as a habit and expansion is never an issue for me."
     
  3. Babibo

    Babibo Immortal

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  4. Sero Sed Serio

    Sero Sed Serio Chieftain

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    I also want to thank everyone who directly answered my questions regarding the organized civic and courthouses. I realized after posting that I knew that organized affected only the civic costs, because that's what it says when you look at the trait when you choose a leader. =P
     
  5. Sero Sed Serio

    Sero Sed Serio Chieftain

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    Ahaha... that might've had something to do with it.

    After reading your post I agree with you 100%. I find them to be situational and prioritize them in distant cities, especially large distant cities (such as another civ's capital that I've newly acquired ;)), but at home it tends not to be worth the time.
     
  6. Babibo

    Babibo Immortal

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    Well, since I posted that thread, I changed my mind a little bit. I'm still a State Property fan who only cares about production. I still prefer many buildings to the courthouse. But the espionnage has its uses, and there are situations (mostly when I overexpand like mad in the beginning) where Courthouses are the first building on my list.

    On Prince level, you're probably right not to care too much about maintenance. When you'll get to immortal, however, you'd better consider it cause more maintenance means lower slider, means less science.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    @ Sero:

    It does vary by difficulty a lot. On monarch the max "per city" maintenance goes up to 6/city once you have enough, rather than say 5 (I think) on noble. This goes as high as 7 on immortal (i THINK 8 on deity), and the rate at which per-city maintenance is increased too. If you combine this with plans to expand more cities and the distance maintenance penalty (which sometimes is worth it for good sites ASAP), a courthouse on those levels is suddenly worth over 5 GPT in the BCs! That changes the equation considerably.

    Even on monarch they start helping more. Is it worth killing a citizen to make one quicker, and is the opportunity cost (aka another building) too great (in other words, is building something else worth more?). If you REALLY do the math, you'll still find them useful.

    With 15 cities it's hard to imagine a courthouse saving you less than 5 GPT though, even on prince. This is different from raw commerce - it can let you run the slider higher, and the pop will regrow. Of course, you have to take into account whether it's more efficient to whip or work tiles, but that's a topic for another thread (and has been done extensively).
     
  8. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Courthouses are independent of the slider so they can be a big help if you want to keep your research rate high.
     
  9. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    I thought it was half on noble compared to emperor+ which means max should be 10 per city rather than 5...
     
  10. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    You're missing the most useful alternative - work cottages instead of building anything. That gives a lot more than 3 gold per turn!
     
  11. Berkobob

    Berkobob Warlord

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    Quickly pointing out that the # of cities maintenance is 7 on Emperor.
     
  12. Sero Sed Serio

    Sero Sed Serio Chieftain

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    I also want to note that I'm playing vanilla Civ4, something else I guess I need to put in my sig. Espionage is not a factor.
     
  13. Spikey1201

    Spikey1201 Chieftain

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    don't forget a certain (map size dependent) number of courthouses lets you build the forbidden palace, which can be very nice with very spread out empires.
     

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