[BTS] Crashmon Shadow Game 2 :- Emperor

[crashmon]

Hello, and welcome back

So here we have shadow game 2, on Emperor. We are Churchill (Prot, Char) of the English, on a standard pangea map with High Sea level, so no semi-iso here.

Spoiler Starting view :

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Start

I do like the start corn, pigs, stone and Ivory..... and lots of forest, looks like gods have been kind to me here. We have tundra to the south

So lesson 1, have I learned anything from last game on first city ?, so thoughts are, we could SIP, but I am thinking of moving 1SW onto the PH, as we would be right next to the corn and stone, for early Agri, and we have loads of potential chops if we want to focus either Great wall or Mids

have to go Agri first, but after than should we head Hunting (for Ivory), or Masonry (for mids and boost to BW).. Not sure we need quick AH as we have corn, but if we want earlish war might need HA's.

Thinking of moving warrior 1 NE, to see if anything east should prevent us from moving onto PH to the SW

 

[Nick723]

Interesting start! Lots of options for potential tech paths and strategies already - I’m sure they’ll be a good discussion!

Regarding settling position, 1SW is actually a grassland hill, rather than a plains hill. So not much benefit to move there. I think it’s a toss up between SIP and 1N on the Ivory (like the plains hill, that will give you a 2 hammer start). I personally would go 1N, you lose stone in BFC (only a big deal if attempting the Great Wall which I wouldn’t bother about given the map settings) and get a faster start and more rivers.

 

[crashmon]

Yea, not really thinking about the GW, more the mids potentally. I wrote the post based on the screenshot (did not have game open), hence thought it was a plains hill, if I had game open probably would have realised once I planned the move.

So if we move 1N, would that then change to Hunting => AH instead of Agri => AH (hunting for the ivory)?

 

[Nick723]

I would definitely go agriculture first, allows you to improve the corn straight away (if you go hunting first e.g. your worker would have to start with making a camp which is worse - general rule = improve food first).

Then there might be a divergence between two possible paths. Hunting -> AH, or straight to bronze working. The pigs on the hill can actually be mined for a 2F3H tile, which gives some merit to going straight for BW. Not sure on emperor how tech costs line up, but generally on Deity at least you’d be worry about getting both AH and BW before pottery, so it’s an either/or choice in the short term.

Edit: for the pyramids, 1N settle is fine. The capital’s borders will pop again on T50 to bring the stone in your culture (normally if you get pyramids by T65 you’ll be fine). It actually also allows you to settle on the stone as well, which could be a nice second city spot (and saves building a quarry).

 

[Nick723]

Just had a thought.
Another option for this start would be to settle on the stone. Tech Agri->Myst->Masonry->BW

Farm the corn, mine the pigs and the grass hill and build Stonehenge. Churchill is charismatic so that’s +1 happy per city (plus free border pops).

Worth considering at least!

 

[coanda]

1N or 2S (on Ivory or Stone) for a 2H city tile seem like good options to think about. 1N has the benefit of being a turn faster (can move-and-settle same turn), plus with the tundra visible to the south the AIs are probably north and settling towards them early can help you get more land before it fills up. So I'd lean that way by default. As a smaller side benefit compared to SIP, both of those moves would also save the forest the settler is currently on, giving you another chop at some point in the future.

Some fog-gazing to spot forests and tundra tiles (tundra is usually junk) shows most of the interesting spots; the two non-forested spots you don't have vision of which warrior could scout and would be nice to see in deciding where to settle are 2S2W of the settler, or 1S2E of the settler. 1S2E, by virtue of being in the default settle-in-place BFC, is a little more likely to have a resource, so I'd move the warrior NE to peek onto that tile before making a final decision.

Your initial instinct of agriculture right away seems good to me, that's definitely how I'd start assuming you don't discover any new resources in your city's BFC when you found it. I think Hunting or Masonry could both be deferred after that. Ivory is not a huge power tile - 1F3H2C is only a little better early on than a grass hill mine's 1F3H. The Great Wall is probably not that useful on a high sea level Pangaea, Pyramids isn't something you'd need to rush into and could put off thinking about until after your next settler is produced.

You're right that having corn means you could potentially defer animal husbandry, mine the pigs instead; that would free you up to get Bronze Working faster and start chopping forests sooner.

Sometimes, particularly on starts where you're debating Animal Husbandry as an early tech, it pays to think about the timing of the worker's actions and the techs. If you go something like Agr -> AH -> Bronze Working, those finish somewhere around turn 9, 22, 36 give or take a couple turns. Worker finishes around turn 12, farm around turn 18, then... assuming you haven't found any more resources around the capital, he has about four turns with nothing really good to do while waiting on animal husbandry. Then he pastures the pigs, and has another ten turns or so with only low-value moves while waiting on Bronze Working. He can do stuff like mine random hills or build grass farms in that time, but it's not ideal. If you go AGR - Hunting - AH - BW, the discount on Animal Husbandry and ability to camp the ivory pretty much offsets the added turns teching Hunting and you still have an awkward phase where your worker is waiting on tech. If you go AGR -> BW, skipping AH and mining the pigs, then worker finishes around turn 12, farm around turn 18, pig mine and bronze working both finish around turn 22 and he can move straight into chopping forests. Of course this whole line of thinking could be thrown out the window if you discover something else useful to improve when you found your capital.

Given that it's a high sea level Pangaea map, I personally would steer away from Stonehenge. I'm guessing the land is going to fill up fairly fast; free monuments for new cities is useful in direct proportion to how many new cities you actually get. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise on that if anyone wants to make a strong case for it.

 

[Nick723]

Good advice as always @coanda!

As you asked...I shall make the case for Stonehenge!

I think here Stonehenge is a pretty strong play, albeit that this is unusual. I take your point about slowing expansion, but
a) it’s only 60 hammers with stone, not a big sink
b) +1 happy might let you whip a bit harder to compensate
b) you do also get free monuments in captured cities (or at least I’m 99% sure you do). Free border pops and +1 happy is not to be sniffed at here either.

 

[sampsa]

On first thought, 1N and agri-BW seems best.

On Stonehenge... a no from me. What's not to like in a 60 wonder? A lot.

1. Location. On top of stone is off the river, meaning no connection with 2nd city. In a very dry -situation losing that 2 hurts. You can connect cities with roads, which brings me to the 2nd point.
2. Tech path. The cost is not only 60 but that your is directed towards techs that are not useful for you right now (myst-masonry). So you are delaying the important stuff like BW, wheel-pottery and to less extent hunt-AH.
3. Usefulness. You already have an extra +1 from CHA, +1 from ivory so another +1 is not urgent at all. Oh and +3 from Mids which should be guaranteed on this level on such a start IF you want it. So the most useful things would be faster border pops and -points of a weak type.

 

[coanda]

Sampsa just pre-empted my ramblings on tech path and Stonehenge in a much more succinct and understandable fashion. Know this as the day you all were saved from a meandering discussion which could, in hindsight, have been conveyed in a single line.

 

[crashmon]

Sampsa just pre-empted my ramblings on tech path and Stonehenge in a much more succinct and understandable fashion. Know this as the day you all were saved from a meandering discussion which could, in hindsight, have been conveyed in a single line.

Looks like 1N is the play but I'll wait for @lymond and @krikav (plus time for others as well) to have a say before I move ahead here

 

[krikav]

1N, settle on the ivory for +1 hammers.
Tech Agri (For the corn) then most likely BW to check for copper and to enable chops.
The hill-piggies can be mined.
Would for sure go hunting before AH eventually for the bonus and to enable the ivory happines.
High sea level pangea sounds like it can be crowded, so it's good that there is ivory around for a construction elepult breakout.

Waaay to early to say, but I think SH could be an option here. But not in capital and not really that early.
If no better second city spot shows up, you could go myst->mason after BW, settle city#2 on the stone and chop out SH there.
It's probably a gambit that could work out nicely on emperor.
Monuments are OK, but no big deal really. The happines isn't needed everywhere. But the culture from the monument itself can help you claim abit more land if you get it in a non-capital city.
This path also sets you up to failgold TGW and possibly build pyramids, so it could be a decent economic path too compensating abit what you would lose by delay TW/Pot/Writing etc abit by going that path.

But those speculations are just that, speculations.
At hand right now is probably just to settle on some plains-elephants, build a worker, scout abit and tech agri (at T5).

 

[crashmon]

1N, settle on the ivory for +1 hammers.
At hand right now is probably just to settle on some plains-elephants, build a worker, scout abit and tech agri (at T5).

So for my understanding here, what you are saying is not to start agri research at t0, but wait until t5 so it maps when the worker is build?

 

[krikav]

T0 -> T4 we always deselect research, that way we store upp beakers unallocated.
T5 we have to select tech, because after that point, the game places our stored beakers automatically (placing them into ridiculus stuff most likely).

We do this because if we manage to meet some AIs that do know agriculture prior to T5, then we get a small discount toward teching agriculture ourselves.
And also, there are some occasions where you have one idea about what to tech at T0, where this changes when you reach T5.

It has nothing to do with the worker, that one is done T12.

 

[crashmon]

ok I always wondered why people did that will remember for this game

 

[coanda]

Probably goes without saying, but move the warrior before you move the settler 1N. There's a slim chance he spots something like a plainscow or a wheat on that mystery tile, which would persuade you to settle 2S on stone instead of 1N on ivory.

 

[sampsa]

Ah yes, the warrior move. I wouldn't go south, because you can see tundra and ice there. I'd try to maximize the chances of meeting someone before the end of T5 to get a small boost to agri. Thus warrior NW probably, but NE is sensible too to uncover the unforested tile you are planning to move away from.

 

[Fippy]

Adding some more SH thoughts, as you go up further in difficulty completing it becomes more and more questionable.
So chasing it on Emp. becomes pointless for let's say learning Deity.

I usually see SH as early failgold wonder (with Myst starters).
Stone actually makes completing SH less attractive, as Sampsa wrote you will most likely want Pyras and then start "fighting" Great Priest points when Rep. scientists are around.

SH can be much better on Fractal type maps, or islands, where cities have outer ring seafood.
It's still an overall weak wonder for completion, would i normally want ~100 gold or free monuments early..gold easily
Being CHA would not influence my decision, it's still an early commitment compared to cities often having time for a monument slow build when they really need +1 happy.

Bottom line, failgold thoughts first are always a strong play (minus 2 key wonders, Pyras and GLH).
Completing SH can be based on map layout, especially your Cap (future scientists spot?), i find that SH becomes better the less food my Cap has.

 

[lymond]

Totally concur with herr sampsa. Warrior 1NE first to check for resource. Otherwise, settle 1N.

You have 5 turns to decide, as others mentioned, but unless a AG resource presents itself or a plethora discovered nearby, I'd likely just go Hunt>AH here.
Conversely, if a strong Ag resource does present itself, then AG>BW would be my choice.

edit: ha...nevermind...I totally did not see the corn there. those number threw me off. Ag>Hunt>AH is fine.

 

[jnebbe]

Another reason 1N is great is because your borders will pop by T5. If you move onto a PH T0 and settle T1 you'll have to commit to a tech before your borders pop which might change your decision

 

[crashmon]

Turn 5

So I moved NE with warrior, and no resources, so I settled 1N on Ivory and revealed more Ivory.
Have moved Warrior East - North East, found coast, found gold and I think I have either India (good) or Rome (Bad), can't tell with the purple which it is, to the north

Spoiler Map :

I've put a proposed spot for 2nd and 3rd city, I want that gold before Rome / India gets it
Teching Agi, will probably go Hunting, then BW next, not sure if need urgent AH

Thoughts