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Creative Trait?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Orion Pax, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Greetings all. Curious to hear more how people feel about the Creative trait. I’ve gleaned some by reading old trait rankings and such, but CRE seemed to get less discussion I guess as more of a plainer trait?

    So Creative :culture::
    Where do you rank it? Pros/cons? How do difficulty/speed/play styles/etc. influence this?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  2. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Cheaper libraries raises it a bit for me.
    The early border pop is only above average REAL early, for the first few cities, and then during your conquer phase when you take cities.
    In my humble opinion.
     
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  3. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Yeah the border pops seem to mean a couple things at least:

    1) making best tiles workable earlier
    2) likely enhancing city placement
    3) skipping mysticism for a good while in favor of worker techs
    4) and winning border tiles from nearby AI (cheap libraries of course doubles this)

    So where would you rank CRE then?
     
  4. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    Not top tier but I don't complain when I get it.
    I still rate PHI, IND and FIN as the big three. But after reading these forums for so long, I have learned to appreciate others.
    And they're fun to play for something different. You must play your traits. Using SPI is a different game for me as with a few others. Like with IMP I have been known to go settler first.

    The only one I really dislike is PRO but have found a use for it when playing always war.

    And to me that (and other things) was one of the biggest beauties of IV. Replayablility. Some that V and VI really don't have.
     
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  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, CRE is second tier for me with EXP, SPI and CHAR. And really shines when combined with other strong traits.

    Fast libraries is the top point for me, but flexible settling is very nice, especially to grab the seafood swimming far from shore. Still does not preclude settling cities logically. 5 turns is still a long time to wait to improve food.

    Border wars are least of my concerns and in long run CRE is not really going to factor that much.
     
  6. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    Very useful, but also very limited. Once you've settled/conquered your cities or you tech Music the advantage of the free +2:culture: is basically done. It's not going to make a big difference during a Cultural Victory, for instance. Cheap Libraries are great, but once you've build them the advantage is done. Colosseums aren't impressive buildings even when they're cheap, and Theatres are cheap to begin with, so making them even cheaper doesn't make too big a difference. And, again, once you've build those buildings, the advantage is done. Other traits continue to have an impact for much longer than CRE.

    On lower difficulties CRE does has more chance to shine, since peaceful REXing and early rushes are more (often) viable, and it's less of a problem if you crash your economy in the process since AIs tech so slowly that even a long recovery period isn't going to lock you completely out of the trading game. It might take a bulb or two to get back into it, but cheap libraries can definitely make that happen. On slower games I'd say it actually matters less, since while waiting 30 turns for a Monument to pop borders is awful waiting 15 isn't really ideal either, so you end up settling next to food tiles anyway, if possible.

    As for ranking, it's actually a personal favorite of mine, but I wouldn't argue that it's a top tier trait. Better than some, better than PRO at least, but not top tier.
     
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  7. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Even bigger difference on marathon: it’s 30 :culture: to pop first border. So that’s 30 turns with a monument, and that’s after you get it built. And early game I feel it most critical to work only the best tiles because happy cap means you can only work a few.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  8. drewisfat

    drewisfat Chieftain

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    In KMOD I'd say CRE is tier 1 and FIN is tier 2.
    This is because the culture rework is a lot more punishing to the player and the AI is super pillage-happy.
     
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  9. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Interesting... I’ve been intrigued by the KMod. I’ll have to try it!

    Especially since as @AcaMetis points out, the building bonuses are pretty weak after the library. So it’s be nice for the culture to count for more longer.

    It seems some traits really have long-running multiplier effects but CRE and a few others just don’t.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  10. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    I find that creative shines when the land is a bit barren and with not that many AIs around. I guess many believe that creative is best on cramped map since you win borderwars(which is nice, but rarely huge), but on those you'll get an AI-religion early which makes creative less powerful. If the land is weak then non-creative leaders either have to sink a ton of hammers into monuments (and still get way slower borderpops) or settle crap cities.
     
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  11. Orion Pax

    Orion Pax Chieftain

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    Ah so true. Yeah, preventing crap cities - CRE really helps avoid that, even if the land is not barren.

    With AI’s religion though, the spreading is so haphazard and missionaries seem to cost a lot at the time, so when it works early & fast it’s great, but not having border pops until whenever that unknown time happens seems not ideal?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  12. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    CRE is amazing for hard REX phase (like when going from 8 to 16 cities in short time etc). Allow to place cities in best positions (when thinking about some size 8-12 city not 1-4 pop) and can improve best tiles no matter where they are in BFC. Ocean Fish also is something CRE really boosts while non-CRE would make it less useful source. Cheap buildings comes also very handy as Colosseum is like free whip with good overflow (same for Library). Only downside is that playing leader without CRE might feel like playing 1 level harder game after getting use to border expansion "right after X number of turns".
     
  13. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I would say CRE is top tier.
    While there are few benefits "later", it really shines when we most need traits..early ~~

    Biggest benefits:
    * better long term cities due to all can be placed in their optimal position.
    * Food in second ring cities, especially ocean seafood, becomes available quickly without doing anything.
    * grabbing early unit resis (copper, horsies) is easier, great for deity barb defense.

    Very good benefits:
    * Libraries, obviously :) 45h saved on the 2nd best (after granary) early building.
    * Culture = barb control help, again this mostly comes into play on deity where they are relentless and dangerous.

    Average:
    * Colosseum and theatre become better options for happy control, colosseums are otherwise annoyingly expensive for what they do.
    * Captured cities will be efficient sooner.
    * Culture "wars" are much easier, obviously :)

    Biggest rush / unit boost: HAs
    Any average city can or could get it's library to help reaching them faster.
    Capital can run 2 scientists for math bulb sooner.
    Horse resi city can be placed better, eventually.
    More forests in culture borders available for chopping.

    For me it's a step above EXP i.e., where faster 1st worker is not always possible if plains hills are missing.
    Cheaper granary is very nice ofc, but they are 2 pop whips while library = 3 pop whip, making the discount a little more important.
     
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  14. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    What is the benefit of early Math? +50% of Hammers from forest? Gate to Construction?

    Math costs 250 Beakers. Settled SG produce this in 250/8 = 32T and gives extra hammer...
     
  15. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Was for an HA rush example, besides better chops you also can move on to currency quicker (as rush recovery).
    For HAs on high levels, you mostly care about succeeding and grabbing land that will win you the game later :)
    So using a GS for maths cannot really be compared to bigger bulbs later, just like you could not compare your first worker with 5 late game guys.
     
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  16. Hamilton321

    Hamilton321 Chieftain

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    My games I find little use for creative, I almost always whip my libraries and although I play many cramped maps I prefer to use early rushes to gain cities and having more favorable sites for cities is not particularly helpful when you only build two, then go right into rush mode. in my current strategy I really do not rely on culture, so i guess for me creative is pretty worthless for my strategy and the settings I choose for my games.
     
  17. Spokane

    Spokane Chieftain

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    Yeah I am the opposite, I like to rely on culture to convert rival cities more than war, when I can. Of course, they often get pissed and start one. But it also works for me often enough that CRE helps get that early push that helps get the ball rolling on creating a city that can overtake rival cultures. Most often of course this is used when the rival is the greedy one and settles near my city, well my city has had time to build some of that extra culture before they set down. So given good opportunities and production in said city as far as being able to build even more culture producing buildings, then that crappy city (in most cases its crappy and just settled to get in your way) eventually flips to the player without a war. Of course actually wanting the city is another issue, at least half the time I disband it, as it is again, in the way and crappy with no good land/resources around it. But this happens a ton with the AI, so it happens pretty much every game where they settle crappy cities in a nook and cranny somewhere, and it may not always be worth going to war over, or its a CIV that isn't as much of a hothead and you may want to actually try to be friends with. Getting their city through culture is better for this as well.

    But as someone said about barren lands that also is a great use for it, fill in that land so the borders are seamless without having to settle a wide empire with not all idle city spots,and focus on fewer cities but better spots.
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    On settler difficulty?
     
  19. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    According to the Civilopedia, which is based on either Settler difficulty or Quick speed? Not sure. Normal speed Deity Math costs 422:science:, for reference.
     
  20. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

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    Good point!

    I didn't want to load game and quickly looked at https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Mathematics_(Civ4)

    On Immortal 343 (EDIT: it's not true!).

    Teching on Deity isn't rewarding (( With such huge numbers spending of Great Scientist for Math doesn't look wasting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019

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