1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Creative Trait?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Orion Pax, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,499
    Gender:
    Female
    So 422:science: -20% standard discount (that every tech gets iirc), still looks like too few for bulbing and i can understand that.

    My posts are usually for deity, any speed advantage can rescue your game there.
    Or those extra ~3 units from 30:hammers: chops.
    Ofc maths should never be bulbed on Emp or below :)
     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,748
    Location:
    Finland
    This is certainly not true.

    edit: start a normal speed, standard size, cylindrical map and you'll see that math costs 405:science:. You can divide it by 1,2 since there is one pre-req meaning +20% bonus, making it 337,5:science:. I don't know if it really makes sense to calculate in how many turns does a settled GS produce 337,5:science:, but it's 337,5/7,5=45T.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  3. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    Again I made mistake.

    I looked for cost with 20% discount ((
     
  4. Trout

    Trout Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    35
    There is a minority on this forum that rates Creative as top tier and I am in that minority. For me, it's because it is enormously valuable in the early game which is the most critical part and I will trade that for it being pretty worthless in the late game. Besides which traits have value in the late game anyway except ORG, FIN, and PHI?

    In the early game, for me, the best part of it is the quick access to your BFC with cheap libraries and sealing off land from your neighbors being very sweet as well. It's also nice in two significant ways when going into war mode. First, it's usually good for being one tile closer to your enemy when beginning your attack due to winning border wars and then it accelerates captured cities becoming fully productive due to the quick border pops.

    I've posted elsewhere on my love for Louis and WvO because they combine Creative with a second strong trait. Pericles does that too but his horrible starting techs and beginning with a scout instead of a warrior seem to always be a big hindrance in the first few turns when I have played him. So I rate him behind the other two for those reasons.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,499
    Gender:
    Female
    SPI, mid-late game:king: trait
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  6. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    And somewhat https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Charismatic_(Civ4)

    +1 happiness per city, +1 happiness from Monument and Broadcast Tower and -25% experience points needed for unit promotions.

    I tried to play without CHA and it is entire new difficulty level for Immortal. You cities suck and I go for library instead of Monument so Hammers' spending makes sense (1-3 chops help get Library in reasonable time).

    Late game you'll have units 2-3 lvl out of the city.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  7. drewisfat

    drewisfat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    379
    IND is good late game. I think many people underestimate the production boost to national wonders, which is the critical infrastructure from the late-middle game onward. Combined with a few decent late game world wonders, it's nothing to sneeze at. Consider that if you build the Cristo Redentor you've given yourself the SPI trait. If you build one of the 5-happiness resource wonders and/or West Point you've given yourself something better than CHA. If you build the NE and/or Statue of Liberty you've basically given yourself the PHI trait, etc. You're also more likely to have access to resources the wonders require and more wonder options so better fail gold potential later game.

    FIN is good because when you think fin you think cottagespam and 3 of the final civics buff these. So it's not so much that FIN is stronger, but if you have the FIN trait your eco is likely set up well for late game.

    PHI is more of a mixed bag. Great people drop off in value precipitously late game as they simultaneously become more expensive and have less value. The final blow is if the UN kicks you out of Rep. The big late game value is cheaper universities. Without that bonus they are prohibitively expensive, so this makes a huge difference if beakers are going to matter to you post cuir/cannon stage.

    CHA I feel doesn't matter that much late game. Promotions are nice but between artillery, planes and nukes, late game battles are determined by whether the units have been "softened" or not.
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  8. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    I should agree with that. It something that helps in early game with population and early wars with promotions. But it is negligibly matter in late game for military (as you pointed) and for population (who care would it 20 or 21?).
     
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    10,499
    Gender:
    Female
    I should explain why i think SPI is best after some time..
    long way until CR, and there are many Civics that can be swapped around.
    Caste - Slavery (works really well for GP farming while also getting out what you need)
    Paci - OR - Theo (with Paci connected to Caste, while not needed much under Slavery)
    Bur - Vass - Nationhood etc.

    But ofc there's also diplo, and SPI really shines here.
    Would like an expensive tech, but an AI dislikes you or not enuf? Switch into something else, and then back when done trading with them ;)
    Same for an AI plotting and "pleased begs", or demands like switching into their favorite stuff.
    All those are painful with Anarchy, and in regular games golden ages are really not that common.

    Those benefits far outshine getting 1c more on tiles from FIN i.e., at this point.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  10. Deathcrush

    Deathcrush Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2019
    Messages:
    15
    Oh i love CRE trait. i think it is really powerful even overpowered ! cause all the thing people already mentioned 1-st u have free border pops and 2nd - you can roll over the other civs and have an actual working city not constantly revolving and not crying for ****. you can just culture eat some rival city close to you even without trying! Not to mention if you build a good wonders ... then it is almost 100% guarantee to dominate. I love that. :)
     
  11. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    98
    Gender:
    Male
    Can you explain this mechanic a bit more?

    You can check favorite civic / religion, switch temporarily, make trade and go back to whatever you need?

    So next turn I can switch back to my civics?

    Is this true for the religion too (no anarchy)?
     
  12. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    395
    Gender:
    Male
    Pretty much. Just make sure that, if you're flipping into someone's favorite civic, they're running it as well, otherwise you won't get the +diplo for You've Wisely Chosen Your Civics.

    No, without the CR wonder all civic/religion switches are on a 5-turn cooldown (I...don't recall off-hand if that's game speed dependant. I know slower speeds get more Anarchy turns, though). You can adopt a religion, do some diplo stuff, and than swap into the Free Religion civic to effectively flip yourself out of that religion. Just be careful if an AI asks you to flip into one of the other religious civics, since you'll flip back into the religion you were running last, not necessarily the only one that's a sane choice to run.
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  13. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    995
    Location:
    Latvia
    Yes, they got more. Also map size impacts limit where anarchy turns increase (from city number). For example Huge map (I usually play) that limit is 16 cities (mara speed - 1 turn for religion, 2 turns for single civic chance + 1 turn for additional civic change). If build 17th city - religion goes to 2 turns, and single civic change to 3 turns. Can be important when aiming for some non-Golden Age civic change and still have good land to settle with healthy economy overall - I might find myself in some games to delay few settles before Anarchy (Burea usually is that civic where this happen) and than settle cities that goes above 16 (with 32 being next limit border etc.)
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  14. Lennier

    Lennier Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,198
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orange County, NY
    The 5-turn cool down is not speed or map-size dependent.(elmurcis described the anarchy turns dependence on speed/map size very well.)
     
    elmurcis likes this.
  15. Trout

    Trout Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Messages:
    35
    Fippy: I absolutely stand corrected in that SPI also has tangible late-game value exactly as you point out. I tend to forget about how powerful SPI can be on Deity settings because I play almost exclusively EMP/IMM level. But I still believe the majority of traits don't make much difference in the late game. I guess one could also argue that EXP has value in that +2 health gives a small bump in the late game but again it is not game-changing in my opinion. Whereas I believe CRE is absolutely a game-changing trait in the early game.
     
    Orion Pax and Fippy like this.

Share This Page