[R&F] Cree’s UU very underwhelming?

[nitedemon]

This is my first thought playing cree. The unique scout’s extra strength is not enough for them to go head to head with barb spearman or warrior, so you are pretty much just using it the same way as regular scout, merely exploring; And especially in this expansion the sooner you have scout exploring the more rewards you could possibly get (city states envoy, wonder discovery, goodie huts, era scores), but Cree UU’s higher building cost delay this process. So I really think the negative outweighs the positive for this UU. Or am I not using it right ?

 

[Magil]

I am not overly impressed by the UU, but the UI is very, very good so I don't mind so much.

 

[Cyberian]

The UI is extremely good yes and I feel the UU is also good. On higher diffs the CS increase definitely helps greatly. Scouts are almost worthless on Deity the Cree scout definately is not. Yes you need 2 more turns to get it out but you save that due to the early movement cost promotion.
You can use the Cree scouts for warfare once they quit scouting to cover your archers and retreat them easily when damaged due to great movement. You can't do that with normal scouts. I also use double scout XP early.
And later when you get ultimate promotion they are insane and its actually manageable with lots of ancient era warfare.

Btw. in my current game I found a Cree scout in a goodie hut that felt great.

 

[Mojo85]

They are able to chase down barb scouts too and take them out before they have a chance to get away and wake the camp.

 

[FractalAdvocate]

With their free upgrade, they can scout their chosen terrain better than other scouts, and survive random barbarian encounters easier -- if you're in all hills or all forest/jungle, this can be a substantial difference in the amount of early scouting you get done.

For me, they were a lifesaver in an early war -- I had been trying to go peaceful, but I massed them and they let me turn around from getting conquered to wiping out the attacking civ once I got some archers up and a few of them upgraded to the +20 combat strength promotion. I bet they'd be good on a purely offensive early rush, too -- 3-speed terrain-ignoring 40 strength a little before anyone even gets swordsmen online is amazing, and 20 strength makes them almost good as warriors(warriors promote to 27 pretty quick). Notably their 40 strength is without iron or additional resource expenditure to upgrade, and they come with the first upgrade free, so they get there quicker. They fall off when knights start coming out, though.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I find it an odd design choice to make Unique Districts half price, but make some Unique Units cost more than their standard counterparts. Sure, they can still balance things this way, but why?

If one of the ideas for the Cree is "you can have better scouts", then one motivation to playing them may be "I want to try a game with a primarily scout army early and see what happens". Why purposefully cramp that by increasing their production cost?

It also dampens the uniqueness of who your neighbours are. "Ah, there's the Cree. Better watch out for super powered scouts sneaking up on me. Oh, never mind. They cost more so the AI won't be able to pump too many of them out."

It's not that their design choice is wrong from a balance perspective, it just seems odd from a game experience perspective. I'd rather all Uniques be easy to deploy, whether units, districts, or improvements, to encourage their use, whether you're playing as them or against them.

 

[Hans Castorp]

I found them pretty decent. I've hardly ever got a scout up to the +20 CS promotion, but it was manageable with the Cree, and with the extended promotion line, it was worth keeping the promoted units around.

 

[UWHabs]

I got my first taste of R+F last night and chose the Cree, and I'd agree. While it's certainly nice to have scouts that don't immediately die, I found they were not quite good enough offensively to even replace warriors for offense, especially since warriors get a production bonus card.

I think if they were the same cost as a regular scout, that's certainly not too overpowered to want to build a couple. Or if the bonus XP for scouts card also included a production boost for them, then at least you have a short window that you can get a couple of them out early.

Their only real bonus is that between them and the UI, you get a lot of early era points, so it's basically impossible for the Cree to not go into the first era without a golden age. I do think they're better than a regular scout, but not by a whole lot.

 

[Anno]

I think it's good, not great. It would help if it had the normal scout production cost. Still, the free promotion is pretty amazing for early scouting when you get those blanket of trees starts. And it seems pretty good at dealing with barb scouts.

 

[aimlessgun]

Agree that they're useful but with the cost increase it doesn't seem like an advantage the Cree get, just a different flavor of scout.

I built 2 in my immortal game and they were useful vs barbs and in my first defensive war. Their agility in rough terrain makes them pretty good at avoiding death and taking out slingers or wounded units trying to retreat.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Yes it is an negative UU.

But not as negative as some other UUs so that with other bonuses, Cree is still a positive Civ compared to blank, Poland or Georgia.

 

[DeutschDachs]

The thing that bugs me is that you're almost required to build it for the Golden Age points. If I'm playing on Archipelago or a smaller map I sometimes like to skip the scout and go right for builders/monuments.

With the Cree I feel almost forced to build the UU first otherwise I will never build one and at that point I'm essentially playing a Civ with one less unique trait than all the others

 

[UWHabs]

The thing that bugs me is that you're almost required to build it for the Golden Age points. If I'm playing on Archipelago or a smaller map I sometimes like to skip the scout and go right for builders/monuments.

With the Cree I feel almost forced to build the UU first otherwise I will never build one and at that point I'm essentially playing a Civ with one less unique trait than all the others

Well, the advantage though is if you don't want a scout, you can save it to build later when you're pushing for a golden age. You don't have to build it first.

 

[ferretbacon]

They are able to chase down barb scouts too and take them out before they have a chance to get away and wake the camp.

To be fair, do the barbarian scouts even have to make it back to wake the camp? I haven't observed this in R&F yet, but in the base game, as recently as last week, I swear I've seen barbarian camps spew out units before the scout has had a chance to return.

 

[acluewithout]

It also dampens the uniqueness of who your neighbours are. "Ah, there's the Cree. Better watch out for super powered scouts sneaking up on me. Oh, never mind. They cost more so the AI won't be able to pump too many of them out."

The AI should just be given some of its unique units for free when it unlocks the technology. I’m always sad when I spawn next to Harold and I don’t get raided by a carpet of long boats and then attacked by hordes of vikings.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The AI should just be given some of its unique units for free when it unlocks the technology. I’m always sad when I spawn next to Harold and I don’t get raided by a carpet of long boats and then attacked by hordes of vikings.

How about spawning next to Sumeria or Aztec then?

 

[acluewithout]

Build a slinger first...?

 

[DeutschDachs]

Well, the advantage though is if you don't want a scout, you can save it to build later when you're pushing for a golden age. You don't have to build it first.

Oh good point. For whatever reason I thought it was limited to the era it becomes available

 

[blackbutterfly]

This is my first thought playing cree. The unique scout’s extra strength is not enough for them to go head to head with barb spearman or warrior, so you are pretty much just using it the same way as regular scout, merely exploring;

I played the civ mod The Thule so I had a little practice with the "Scout rush" strategy (pretty much your standard Civ V strat.).

The Cree's UU is best used to take out other scouts so your barbs don't get woke.
You can't really use them in battle until they've got to level 3 Ambush (+20 combat). Survey (policy) helps.

Until then, use them to scout out your neighbours (and theirs for joint wars), goody huts, path finding for traders/roads, squat (places to settle) and if you're lucky, capture unescorted settlers.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

How about spawning next to Sumeria or Aztec then?

It would be a dramatically different game than spawning next to Teddy and Peter . Variety = good to my mind.