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[R&F] Cree UU Okihtcitaw - Any use for it?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Hammurabbit, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. Question

    Question King

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    In the unmodded game, the window of opportunity is too low. You cant use them to clear barbarians effectively...because while warriors get the first +7 strength promotion easily, the scout gets nothing. Every battle leaves them damaged and needing to spend 4+ turns to heal back up in the ancient era which only costs 40-60 turns. The extra mobility isnt as big of a deal as IRL beause you cant even get flanking bonuses till you get a civic, and ideally you want to boost that by clearing a barbarian camp first. And flanking is nowhere near as powerful as it is IRL compared to the easy +7 strength promotion that the warrior gets.
     
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  2. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

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    Recon units do not benefit from Oligarchy or its legacy card.

    The substantial increases to recon strength early game are ambush (+20 str), flanking (+2 str ea. adj. friendly unit), and Twilight Valor (+5 str. Dark Age policy).
    If your rolling with a couple Okihtcitaws, that flanking bonus should get to +6 combat str. easily.
     
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  3. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

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    I was initially disappointed with the cost of the Okihtcitaw but it has certainly been useful. I ended up with 4 but only because 1 popped from a hut late medieval. 2 of the other 3 are now level 3 with the ambush promotion and upgraded to rangers. Awesome unit. I never had scouts survive so well in vanilla. Lots of era score from these guys, I even delayed building a mekewap until classical because I found so many huts early (near barbs or in forest/hills where mere lvl 1 scouts are delayed) and had the jump on the barbs. Plus always being in control of the map meant I could farm the Initiation Rights pantheon belief currency during a Monumentality GA dedication

    I still use them strictly as scouts, never as a warrior replacement, but more aggressive when going after barb scouts and ranged. I also tried to run with Survey policy card as long as there was map being explored. The xp grind to level 3 promotion is still rough but that little bit of extra melee strength made for the survivability I needed to get to Rifling. Now as rangers (AI has muskets) they are extremely effective in battle. I'm kicking myself for not making a few more just before Rifling so I could have cheap (production wise) Armies with the Ambush promotion.
     
  4. Hammurabbit

    Hammurabbit Warlord

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    Agree with this. Especially missing out on the +10 against anti cav that melee has makes them take a lot of damage when attacking barb-camps and slowing down early exploration. I wish Cree got some bonus to build recog units faster. Then you would see their UU instead of warriors in the early turns, you would see more rangers mid game, etc, and of course Spec ops. It would be an interesting civ to play or to face.
     
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  5. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    They should really just buff the recon card. Right now it's really no decision to choose between that and +barbarianfight when they become available. That wouldn't just help the Cree but the game as a whole.
    +%production, +1sight, +gold when finding villages?, +envoy when finding city state?--I don't know, there could be a number of interesting places to go with it.
     
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  6. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Agreed. And yet in R&F they nerfed it? Maybe they were worried it would otherwise be too strong for the Cree. I found it really odd. I mean, it was literally about the only policy card that I knew for sure that I would never have a use for, and they thought it was too strong?
     
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  7. Rayyy

    Rayyy Chieftain

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    sorry, my mistake, they don't...could swear I had it through the game...
     
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  8. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

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    I think being able to keep Survey Policy's recon exp in later eras was why it got nerfed.

    Players where able to keep the Survey Policy if they skipped researching the Exploration Civic (where Merchant Republic resides) thus allowing all their scouts/rangers to stack survey exp with the armory 25% exp and military academy 25% exp when initiating attacks or defending/healing throughout the game.

    With R&F, it now requires the industrial dark age policy Elite Forces (+100% unit exp w/ +2 gold on unit maint.) to get such high exp rates without being Kabul's suzerain.

    It hurt the scouts early game as it's much harder to hit ambush while relevant.
    That being said, I still enjoy Poundmaker's Okihtcitaw as a scout but not as a swordsman/melee equivalent.

    If your looking to do a ranger rush, there are several other civs whom are a better choice.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
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  9. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    They are useful for scouting and helping your initial warriors clear up barbarian camps.
    They also have free promotion that means free heal.
    Or use them as normal scout and gathers tribal villages without fear of being wiped out easily by barbs warriors. They can take a beating from them.
    Use them to help pikemen lay a siege on cities. They can move fast out of ranged attacks.
     
  10. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    This is the issue. I forgot that Survey only got retired on a leaf branch, so players could avoid losing it.

    I still don't think they needed to worry about it. Building up a high experience Spec Ops unit would still take effort and the use of a policy card slot. But at least this makes sense for why they thought a nerf was required.
     
  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    As @Victoria mentioned, they're best at Stealing City-states.
     
  12. Turrdy

    Turrdy Prince

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    I am playing the cree at the moment (not so hard difficulty) and i think Okihtcitaws are pretty worthwile. build some in early game and get them skilled when they are still strong enough compared to other units. always get the right skill path (with the +20 promotion). in the best case you'll have a handfull of level 2-3 Okihtcitaws. Then build the Terracotta Army and upgrade to fully skilled Rangers or Spec Ops later in the game.
     
  13. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    Yes, they have uses. Like stealing everything scouts can from other civs.
    They might not be among the best, but certainly they aren't among the worst. Besides UUs are balanced with the civ, you can't just compare them to other UUs directly.
     
  14. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    Specifically, which Civs did you have in mind? I'd imagine Scotland being one of them, who else?
     
  15. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

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    A ranger rush is a mid-late game strategy that all civs have a good shot pulling off. However, its effectiveness can be debated as a winner is usually known by this point.
    Keep in mind ranger rushing doesn't depend on getting highly promoted scouts early. It does help to have scouts already w/ ambush going into it.

    What really gets the rush going is having a high % exp modifier allowing a mass of newly built/faith purchased scouts upgraded (at 50% discount) to rangers (on an as-needed basis) and promoted into ambush quickly.
    Cities with the encampment district are best as recon units will benefit from the Armory (+25% exp) and Military Academy (+25%) exp modifiers.
    The Elite Troops policy (+100% unit exp w/+2 maint.) is available in an Industrial Dark Age and could help, but late-game dark ages are risky as loyalty can be a big problem then.
    If Kabul is around, I'd recommend suzerain them for double unit exp when initiating combat.

    Zulu; Shaka
    Zulu rangers are completely terrifying before ambush and can roll as armies with Nationalism.
    Normal Ranger: 45 melee and 60 ranged combat str.
    Corps:
    Ranger w/o ambush: 60 melee and 75 ranged combat str.
    Ranger w/ ambush: 80 melee and 95 ranged combat str.
    Army:
    Ranger w/o ambush: 67 melee and 82 ranged combat str.
    Ranger w/ ambush: 87 melee and 102 ranged combat str.

    Shaka's Ikanda also makes producing early scout corps feasible in low production cities. The goal in mind here is to conquer into ranger armies with Nationalism (an Industrial era civic).

    Scotland; Robert
    Highlanders are already stronger then rangers (50 vs. 45 melee str and 65 vs. 60 ranged str.) whom get more combat advantages in hills and woods.
    Stronger combat advantages are more powerful then +%exp modifiers as they'll survive longer in combat to reach ambush.

    Mapuche; Lautaro
    The Toqui ability is great for rangers as it enhances unit exp +25% w/ governors with the possibility of +10 combat str. vs golden age civs.
    With Armory (+25% exp), Militray Academy (+25% exp) and Toqui (+25% exp), newly built Mapuche recon units can expect 7ish exp per combat (both offensive or defensive) which is almost pre-nerf survey exp.
    Only with CS Kabul (double exp when initiating combat) or the dark age policy elite troops will another civ to have better exp rates then Lautaro.

    Aztec; Montezuma
    +1 combat str. for each different lux is massive for a timed ranger rush. However, I feel the Aztecs would have snowballed long before and just use rangers to mop up.

    Scythian; Tomyris
    The +5 combat str vs. wounded units and healing on kills is fantastic, but Tomyris will usually be pushing domination with cavalry. rangers are along that research path so it is an easy option.

    Other Honorable Mentions:
    Persia: +2 movement w/ surprise war. The additional movement helps rangers strike first and retreat to safe healing areas faster.
    France: +3 combat str. from diplomatic viability levels is nice. For potential larger combat strength increases with visibility, players would need to invest spies listening post missions. Most other civs would have Printing by this point in the game.
    Mongolia: Much like France, their extra combat str. with diplomatic visibility is strong. However they are like Scythia in that they benefit more from their cavalry focus and rangers happen to be close to cavalry.
    The Cree: Okihtcitaw are survivable scouts, but without ambush going into a ranger rush makes them average. Their main advantage is the amount of game time they have to gain ambush before rifling.

    All civs can pull off a great ranger rush, but there are a few civs with undeniable advantages.
    I know this post comes 3 pages into the thread, but I hope some fanatics will get something out of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  16. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    These dudes were the backbone of my ancient army and that worked out great. I was able to keep 3 alive long enough to upgrade to Spec. Ops with all their upgrades through the ages -- and yeah, they're pretty bad a$$ at this point.
     
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  17. beorn

    beorn Prince

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    Biggest downside by far is that it takes extra turns to build the first one, and this significantly lowers your odds for being first to meet city states, which provides a very important early game advantage.

    But, as others have noted, if you are stuck in jungle/wooded sections, that instant promotion is huge.

    Down the road there are so many ways to play offense, I just don't see one more as all that significant.
     
  18. bite

    bite Unofficial Civilization Cartographer Super Moderator

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    Look if the Cree started with a Okihtcitaw instead of a warrior I'd think we would be a lot more kind on it
     
  19. Trengilly

    Trengilly Warlord

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    I think they didn't do that because it would mess up the ERA score bonus for building your unique unit.
     
  20. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    It's nice to have that early scout/UU, but starting with the warrior and then building the UU gives you instant diversity of arms. Add a slinger and even more diversity. In my first game as Cree, I was sorta bummed not to get the UU right away, but I came to appreciate having that early warrior once spearman entered the scene.
     

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