Crime & Punishment

Why is it only right to auto build bad stuff?

Houses get auto-built and they are not bad. Also I was thinking about having auto-built buildings that trigger when you do not have crime, pollution, etc.

And to answer the root question, because people would not build them otherwise. If it was something "good" then people would want to build it.
 
And, as a positive, it would then be appropriate to enforce that players take a bit of sacrifice in build time to achieve it thus requiring them to prioritize it among other benefits they might be able to gain by a differing build selection.

I haven't played enough recently to know but I'll trust your analysis of the balance need DH.
 
I don´t like the effect of big cities getting even more crime, I think big cities are already punished enough. It is quite easy to get cities of size 100 by late Rennaissance and that means nearly 70 additional crime by this model. So having "Wisdom Literature" and "Code of Ethics" makes crime worse in big cities, I don´t think that´s logical either.

Even more crime reducing units to be built, which I hate, because it is so much micromanagement.

But don´t get me wrong, I like the idea in general, just not the effect on big cities.
 
Public Opinion - replaces the others.
-20 crime with +0.5 crime per population in the city above size 6
-5 crime with Police tech, Newspaper and Mass Media
+0.5 crime per population over 10 with internet tech as you get to be anonymous again.​
[/INDENT]

I think this building must be greatly change with civics.
Propaganda, Close Bordes, Despotism, Fascism, Democraty, Intolerant... All these civics can affect what the public opinion is.

And I disagree with the decrease from media tech : copycat effect can increase crime.
 
I think this building must be greatly change with civics.
Propaganda, Close Bordes, Despotism, Fascism, Democraty, Intolerant... All these civics can affect what the public opinion is.

And I disagree with the decrease from media tech : copycat effect can increase crime.

These are extraordinarily good observations I think.
 
I think this building must be greatly change with civics.
Propaganda, Close Bordes, Despotism, Fascism, Democraty, Intolerant... All these civics can affect what the public opinion is.

And I disagree with the decrease from media tech : copycat effect can increase crime.

But your misdeeds can be seen by your grandmother now even if you don't do them near home.
 
I have no problem with this general concept of having auto-build anti-crime stuff. I do think however that Crime is too low now in games past Classical. How about adding +1 Crime per pop at Vassalage or something to compensate somewhat for this?
 
About crime, i dont know if that can b done, but add an espionage option giving a big one-time boost to crime can be useful. Something like "Help the crime lords of the city, +400 crime". Crime will go back to his normal value with time.

And for anti-crime building, there are already one : Vigilant (req 500 crime).
 
About crime, i dont know if that can b done, but add an espionage option giving a big one-time boost to crime can be useful. Something like "Help the crime lords of the city, +400 crime". Crime will go back to his normal value with time.

And for anti-crime building, there are already one : Vigilant (req 500 crime).

Cool idea. Down the road a long ways I'm looking to expand on espionage mission options and this will definitely be among them at that time.
 
Why make a mission when you could use Outcomes instead?

Because as of yet, the use of Outcomes has been entirely unexplained. Besides, not ruling it out. Aren't outcomes termed missions as well?

When you send the spy in to do something you want to choose what s/he does hence the need for a mission. The various possible results of that mission are the outcomes.
 
I have been thinking about 3 auto build anti crime buildings one of which may cause crime. ;) I have been working on them as a background task and wondered what you think.

The first comes at writing and represents the "Wisdom Literature". The Bible contains many examples of this. I a reading a Sumerian one which describes how to be a good merchant and have seen part of the remains of an Egyptian one which may well be a for runner to Machiavelli's "The Prince".

The second is based on a comment by Joseph (yes we do listen to you sometimes;)) and comes at Scriptures if you have a state religion - "Code of Ethics"

Both of these are replaced by "Public Opinion" at Critical Thought. The thing about Public Opinion is that its effect decreases the bigger the city so in big enough cities it causes crime.

Wisdom Literature - auto build at writing -10 crime.

Code of Ethics - auto build as Scriptures if you have a state religion. -10 crime.

Public Opinion - replaces the others.
-20 crime with +0.5 crime per population in the city above size 6
-5 crime with Police tech, Newspaper and Mass Media
+0.5 crime per population over 10 with internet tech as you get to be anonymous again.​

I was thinking about these more and I think at least some would be best used as "Ordinances" or even "Laws". We could always make two types such as local laws with require a Courthouse in the city. And then national laws which could require the palace and would send a free building to every city with the effect.

Next cycle I think I might want to focus on "Ordinances" and "Laws".
 
I have been thinking about 3 auto build anti crime buildings one of which may cause crime. ;) I have been working on them as a background task and wondered what you think.

The first comes at writing and represents the "Wisdom Literature". The Bible contains many examples of this. I a reading a Sumerian one which describes how to be a good merchant and have seen part of the remains of an Egyptian one which may well be a for runner to Machiavelli's "The Prince".

The second is based on a comment by Joseph (yes we do listen to you sometimes;)) and comes at Scriptures if you have a state religion - "Code of Ethics"

Both of these are replaced by "Public Opinion" at Critical Thought. The thing about Public Opinion is that its effect decreases the bigger the city so in big enough cities it causes crime.

Wisdom Literature - auto build at writing -10 crime.

Code of Ethics - auto build as Scriptures if you have a state religion. -10 crime.

Public Opinion - replaces the others.
-20 crime with +0.5 crime per population in the city above size 6
-5 crime with Police tech, Newspaper and Mass Media
+0.5 crime per population over 10 with internet tech as you get to be anonymous again.​

I was thinking about these more and I think at least some would be best used as "Ordinances" or even "Laws". We could always make two types such as local laws with require a Courthouse in the city. And then national laws which could require the palace and would send a free building to every city with the effect.

Next cycle I think I might want to focus on "Ordinances" and "Laws".

The whole point is that these are from the people not the government. They are about social interaction and social norms.

All three are really about "Public Opinion" it was just that the term did not come about until later. The first two are mostly about your "good name/character". The third one was trying to simulate in one building all the influences. That is why newspapers are crime fighting because do wrong and your good name can be lost.

It is the fear of being found out rather than punishment that I was trying to get at with these.
 
I agree with DH on this point. The government can't force the people to have a code of ethics, only they can really decide to or not to have ethical behavior.

Well, actually they decide two things:

1) What ethical code to hove to themselves (as a government)
2) What ethical code to enshrine in law (i.e. - what to criminalize) for their populace

These are not necessarily the same thing.
 
The gameplay of C2C is now Dominated by Crime and Disease. Every turn you Must check every city to see that Crime or Disease is out of control again. Even if the turn before you make a Major investment in Gold to reduce either and generally both.

-11 :gold:/turn for a Mausoleum or a Graveyard? And Every city will eventually Have to Have one! No wonder more +1 :gold: making bldgs keep being added in. You need 10 of those +1 bldgs to pay for 1 Disease control building or 1 later Crime bldg. But you run out of Crime reducing bldgs so you start the TW chain at 2 :gold:/turn. And 1 will Not do. Oh no, soon you Must have 3, 4, 5, 6, or more even with Promos.

Long ago when Crime was added I asked if Crime would Dominate the Mods game play. I was told, "Oh no! Just another factor to be aware off." Hogwash! Crime, Disease, Pollution in all it's forms Do Dominate every turn. You can not go 2 or 3 turns without checking. And ppl complain we don't have enough :yuck: or :mad: in the Mod??? :crazeeye:

Now Throw in the hidden line of bldgs with all their negatives and the Crime rate just keeps rising no matter how or with what you attempt to ease it's burden. Soon your Gold/turn and treasury are gone. Your research slider goes down to 0 - 5% and your looking for techs that unlock More of those +1 :gold: Makers. Forget trying to have a consistent tech strategy to get ahead technology wise in the game against your neighbors. Your looking for more ways to make those +1 :gold: makers instead of trying to get Iron so you have swordsmen for example. Or Musket men or Cavalry, etc. ( I never get past Cavalry anymore anyway in a game)

About the only Fun part of this mod to play anymore is the Preh Era. Ancient is okay....but it tails off rapidly after that IMPO.

Can just the Preh Era be made a Mod? Forget the tedium of the rest of the Mod that Crime has precipitated, it's not worth the tedium and drudgery .

:sarcasm: No Crime doesn't dominate the mod's play. :pat: Now go play nice.

JosEPh
 
Shouldn't crime and disease be both a creeping issue, and a tipping point?

It should enhance the challenge and dynamic depth of game-play, and not just become another micro-mangement point. It should be a Multi-dimensional strategic form of play.
Instead of max-min-ing a single feature, like money, or science, crime, unhappiness, you could be optimizing a route to success vs the dynamic process of chaotic and developing history and responsive opponents.
With a softer bell-curve of consequences, things like crime do not have to directly tip you into a revolution, but could increase your chances. A line should able to be crossed completely, but a strategy could push the limit of chance, and have increasing and adaptable consequences. Then you would feel like you were inside the game, like a sandbox, where you are free to move, instead of trapped in a linear progression of building crime, or unhealth - for example.

For instance, with crime, some buildings are obvious crime sinks, but like white-collar crime and corporations, buildings shouldn't have automatically bad effects, or have complete discouragements to build.

It's also a degree of fuzzy logic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
'Fuzzy logic is a form of many-valued logic or probabilistic logic; it deals with reasoning that is approximate rather than fixed and exact. Compared to traditional binary sets (where variables may take on true or false values) fuzzy logic variables may have a truth value that ranges in degree between 0 and 1. Fuzzy logic has been extended to handle the concept of partial truth, where the truth value may range between completely true and completely false. Furthermore, when linguistic variables are used, these degrees may be managed by specific functions.'
Probability can also be used instead of absolutes.



Imagine a thermostat. With a normal circuit, When it hits a certain temperature, the air kicks on or off.
With a fuzzy logic circuit, you can generate multiply states to control the process more dynamically.
It helps turn an off/on or digital experience of 1's, and 0's into a multiple state experience of degrees and transitional states.
Crime or any feature doesn't just have to be an off/on switch. It can have partial effects that could be managed (to a degree).
The data can stay digital, but the processing more staggered.

The more free you are to play the game within constraints, the more likely you are to want to maneuver to a optimum path. Instead of hitting frustrating walls, you have challenging obstacles you have to navigate with incremental consequences. It is the challenge of challenges to build a game that is adaptively fun and yet, still challenging.
 
The gameplay of C2C is now Dominated by Crime and Disease. Every turn you Must check every city to see that Crime or Disease is out of control again. Even if the turn before you make a Major investment in Gold to reduce either and generally both.

-11 :gold:/turn for a Mausoleum or a Graveyard? And Every city will eventually Have to Have one! No wonder more +1 :gold: making bldgs keep being added in. You need 10 of those +1 bldgs to pay for 1 Disease control building or 1 later Crime bldg. But you run out of Crime reducing bldgs so you start the TW chain at 2 :gold:/turn. And 1 will Not do. Oh no, soon you Must have 3, 4, 5, 6, or more even with Promos.

Long ago when Crime was added I asked if Crime would Dominate the Mods game play. I was told, "Oh no! Just another factor to be aware off." Hogwash! Crime, Disease, Pollution in all it's forms Do Dominate every turn. You can not go 2 or 3 turns without checking. And ppl complain we don't have enough :yuck: or :mad: in the Mod??? :crazeeye:

Now Throw in the hidden line of bldgs with all their negatives and the Crime rate just keeps rising no matter how or with what you attempt to ease it's burden. Soon your Gold/turn and treasury are gone. Your research slider goes down to 0 - 5% and your looking for techs that unlock More of those +1 :gold: Makers. Forget trying to have a consistent tech strategy to get ahead technology wise in the game against your neighbors. Your looking for more ways to make those +1 :gold: makers instead of trying to get Iron so you have swordsmen for example. Or Musket men or Cavalry, etc. ( I never get past Cavalry anymore anyway in a game)

About the only Fun part of this mod to play anymore is the Preh Era. Ancient is okay....but it tails off rapidly after that IMPO.

Can just the Preh Era be made a Mod? Forget the tedium of the rest of the Mod that Crime has precipitated, it's not worth the tedium and drudgery .

:sarcasm: No Crime doesn't dominate the mod's play. :pat: Now go play nice.

JosEPh

Is this how your game on Normal currently plays? Because that doesn't correspond with my experience currently. Gold is a bit too limited right now IMO, but not to that level where I'm dying from crime. In fact, with all of the Guards I have crime is no problem whatsoever really. The issue is that Hydro feels that he needs to take on -100 :gold: randomly to buildigns that previously only had -12 :gold: and stuff like that which is making gameplay currently a real pain.
 
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