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Crime & Punishment

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Hydromancerx, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Can't really entangle them much when one is optional (stability is ignored if REV is off). You **can** have the crime buildings provide instability, but the converse is not currently possible, since stability levels cannot be used to trigger things like buildability.

    If stability was rewritten as a property this would all become possible.
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Now that is a revolutionary thought... Not like the authors of Rev want us using it anyhow. Big project though. And you know my opinion would be strongly in favor of breaking free from the one direction is always positive or negative approach to properties and I'd feel it would be much more pertinent if we wanted to attempt this sort of conversion on the revolution concept. I'm not Western minded despite being a Westerner. A complete elimination of crime throughout society would go hand in hand with a terrifyingly worse oppression.
     
  3. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I find this strange as I see no crime as meaning absolute freedom from oppression.
     
  4. Il Principe

    Il Principe Prince

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    I think you both can be right :D Total oppression means many potential crimes , since there are strcit laws and breaking them is a crime.. but noone does that , because the consequences are severe and you are sure to be caught.

    But total freedom means no laws, so no crimes :)

    Of course one could hope that total freedom would also mean people being good, caring and nice to each other... but let´s face it: Humanity isn´t build that way ;)

    But apart from the philosophical discussion about the definition of crime and oppression, I was simply refering to revolutionary sentiment leading to more crime in reality. Heck, depending on the government in question peacefull protest marchs that disturb nothing more then the traffic laws are already a capital offense.
    But peacefull protesters meeting a less the npeacefull police force, or the other way round lead to violence. To (local) chaos with vandalism happening just as a side effect.
    Let´s say peacefull protesters and violent police... when the fightign starts protesters try to get weapons. Cobblestones are pretty traditional in that respect, but a shop nearby might have Baseball bats or Golf equipment, kitchen knifes or anything potentially a weapon on display, so the opportunity( and the goods) might be taken.
    Those people don´t "steal" in the sense that they want to process something they can´t afford or want to resell or just envy their neighbor for, and are usually not criminals.
    On the contrary. Protesters often are middle class (secure enough to no be busy surviving, so they got the time, but not enough to feel content, so they got motivation). Not exactley the most criminal demographic, if you don´t count tax evasion ( and even then the upper classes out race them I would guess)
     
  5. n47

    n47 Prince

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    My dear friend. But isn't this understand the world as you should wish it to be? ;)

    If there would be no oppression for raping, what would stop stronger men from raping weaker women? For example. Or maybe, you do not take it as a crime? As well as taking away thing from others, because of eager for wealth? Or killing from religious reasons, or point of view?

    Actually in my country, which was in the Eastern Bloc, must say, there were fewer crimes against other people during "communism" done by ordinary people then it is now.

    This is how officially the crime is defined. But I oppose this definition. And according to the academic materials of law doctrines I am currently studying, I am not alone in this opposition. Actually since the ancient Greece there were postulates of existence of universal laws, which are above those stood by humans. And no human law, or lack of them, can cancel crimes against those laws.

    edit
    Oh, I assumed it is a general knowledge, but I guess there can be exceptions. -- In the Eastern Bloc there were quite high level of oppression.
     
  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Ah but I consider such things (rape/bullying) as both oppression and crime. I do not consider the idea that a law prohibiting something such as "spouse beating", for example, is oppression of people who think that "spouse beating" is their right! This is based only on the "golden rule" about treating others as you would be treated.
     
  7. Il Principe

    Il Principe Prince

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    Wether the laws of a state are on accordance with the universal laws n47 mentioned or not, I would define oppression also over the means they are enforced with. Of course that is somewhat vague. A law against rape is not the same as one prohibiting people of a certain heritage from getting specific jobs.
    But oppressive systems tend to be more ..strict when it comes to enforcing laws. And since they rely on people obeying some of their.. suboptimal laws to remain stable, they need to enforce every law much stricter then a liberal state.
     
  8. n47

    n47 Prince

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    Yeah, but if the law would not be backed up with some oppression system, how would it force those peoples to not doing it?

    Ok, so you meant equivalency of no crime and no oppression in general? We've been talking about oppression from the state's side, so it miss led me.

    But of course you understand, that it is utopian and, at least until the human will learn to rid of his instincts, it is impossible? ;)

    Please, don't say me liberal states have more optimal laws. :rotfl:

    But going closer to the topic, looking at how it was here, those oppressive states indeed decreased the crime level inside the common society. Or at least the crime against people level. As actually tricking and fighting the state were quite popular. -- Of course the state was one great anti-people criminal by its own. But I guess, in our two hundreds percent totalitarian game, we do not count this kind of criminality. :p
     
  9. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Interesting debate I started here.

    But yes, I'm trying to say that only a state that takes absolutely ruthless actions against its people, monitors and micromanages the populace to the point of an elimination of privacy, and controls the people to the smallest detail can hope to eliminate crime. In so doing it has created a system even worse to exist within as it crushes the spirit of the populace.

    If you have 5 police officers for every 10 citizens, they all need to justify their jobs. So if someone takes too long looking at a sign at the side of a street they would be arrested for loitering because there's always an eye of the law on them looking to fill their quota. The definition of crime then becomes more and more minute, more and more whimsical and petty simply so that the vast system of control may continue to justify itself. Books of great art would be banned (or burned) for the suggestions of criminal activities they may contain. The ability of a person to think for himself and consider anything outside of the tight little box they are supposed to act within would be sought to be eliminated.

    Sure crime can oppress and harm others. Thus when a civilization is dealing with a lot of crime you have a lot of unhappy and angry people. But its just as bad when the system attempts to completely eliminate it because it requires oppressive action to eliminate it. Examples: the public mindset in the movie Demolition Man. Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World. Communism. Modern USA's phone tapping scandals (and we haven't even ELIMINATED crime but you can see where it's all headed - the control of the state is reaching deeper into our lives all the time. Yes crime is diminishing... so is our hope for a positive future.)
     
  10. Il Principe

    Il Principe Prince

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    Depends on the law in question,but not in general :D I was just trying to be nice :D

    On topic: The line between necessary regulation and oppression is not a fine one, but more a broad band. Or maybe it is fine, but hidden behind a lot of noise.

    Take the current discussion about the NSA and their British equivalent. Some of the outrage is about nobody knowing about it, and government having no information or keeping it secret. But there is a reason it´s called secret service. If they made their methods public they would be useless.
    Too much independency of such agencies is definetley dangerous, but too little of it and they can´t do their work.
    Another recent debate here was about circumcision: Germany as a state grants religious freedom, it´s part of our constitution. But technically circumcision fulfills the crime of intentionally inflicting bodily harm, on a child no less.
    Another of the same category was in Poland, about ritual slaughter of animals by bleeding them out. When it was outlawed animal rights activists rejoiced, saying it was unnesesarily cruel. But the Jewish and Muslim comunities were horrified by it.

    And then there are more extreme cases blurring the line between good and bad opression. Like Iraq. Saddam Hussein was clearly an oppressive dictator. But his oppression was not without benefits in some areas: Iraq was one of the few states in the area where religion was of no great importance, had compulsury mixed education and consequently one of the lowest illiteracy around and the religous groups within the land didn´t try to extinguish each other.
    The last part applies for former Jugoslawia as well: After the breakdown of the oppressive regime people at once used their new found freedom. To kill their neighbours, ending in the whole Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo mess.
    Oppressions brings stability. Those were just recent examples. The biggest one I can think of is the christian catholic church, which placed itself above all worldy powers in europe, and kept that status because they controlled education for centuries, including literacy.
    That let to one of the most stagnant parts of European history.
     
  11. n47

    n47 Prince

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    Are you talking about the dream of current "liberal" states' governments? With US at the top?

    5 police officers for every 10 citizens is a little outdated approach. Now we have works around intelligent monitoring systems, which will scan through all people's actions at once and detect "suspicious" ones, then sent the information to security officers. Look INDECT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INDECT

    Actually, the internet tapping, PRISM, may be more important here. It is hard to overhear too many people's phone calls, but it is relatively easy to process automatically huge amounts of text. For example, if you have to many links to anarchistic sites at your facebunnie, with a good probability you can be consider yourself already tracked.

    Nevertheless, it is a pleasure to see people like you in the USA.

    @Il Principe, following my favorite quotes producer
    Too little liberty brings stagnation and too much brings chaos.

    Eh, I miss so much the leftist intellectuals of the previous century.
     
  12. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Of course liberal states have more optimal laws. I will go further and say: every society in history that I know of has had more laws than is optimal. Laws often do more harm than good (loitering as raised recently is a good example), and legalization clearly works to reduce crime in some cases.

    Maybe the crimes of the state cannot be represented as crimes in the game, but they still belong in this 'philosophical' discussion. A criminally oppressive state cannot by definition eliminate crime (ie. without eliminating itself).
     
  13. Il Principe

    Il Principe Prince

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    @n47: That about sums it up
    To the thing about too many laws: I think this is something of an inertia effect. Some laws are out of date, but states are slow to abolish laws already there for various reasons.
    Even revolutions don´t necessarily change that.
     
  14. n47

    n47 Prince

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    Are you taking about the current "liberal" states? They are actually good in producing overgrowing sets of laws. Or are you talking about truly liberal approaches postulated in XIX and XX centuries by liberal capitalists? If so, then the next citation can be brought.

    Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.

    Liberating the law in some districts, means less restrictions for people with power on the mentioned tyranny over those without power. And according to my knowledge, the history confirms this claim.
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I suspect that my view on crime is biased by the fact that in my almost 60 years I have only been affected once by crime - my parents were broken into and robbed on the day before Christmas Eve loosing all the presents.

    To me a law is not a law if it is not enforced or can't be enforced so breaking such a law is not a crime.
    Spoiler :
    There have been a few knee jerk laws invoked in the last 20 years that not only can't be policed they don't address the problem either. They were introduced so that people would think that the politicians were doing something about a tragic event which nothing could have been done.
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    There is no greater tyranny than one in which the people suffering under it are convinced they are free.
     
  17. Il Principe

    Il Principe Prince

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    But then again.. are they really suffering? Ignorance is bliss.
     
  18. n47

    n47 Prince

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    Are you trying to say USA is a greater tyrant, then the North Korea? ;)

    They can suffer not because of the lack of freedom, but because of other reasons. Still, because of this lack, combined with lack of knowledge of not being free, comes immobility of the society to revolt and thus impossibility of changes.
     
  19. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well currently some crimes DO increase rev.

    Says the person who lives in an ex-prison colony. ;)
     
  20. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    As I said in the paragraph you posted:
     

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