1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Criticise these alternate traits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Munch, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87

    Should be Barracks and Drydock, to balance out pangea, contients and island maps imo.
     
  2. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87

    that is an interesting idea, but for all units or just melee and gunpowder?
     
  3. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87

    I disagree, I think I should be able to pick a leader because of my own personal like / dislike of the individual, not because I like his traits.

    For instance I personally like Genghis Khan, but his traits are pretty weak in this game. I should be able to pick Khan and not feel I am at a disadvantage then if I choose another leader with more favorable traits.
     
  4. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I would prefer it to stay on melee/gunpowder units only. As those are "invasion troops".
     
  5. kristopherb

    kristopherb Protective/Charismatic

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,210
    Location:
    British Empire Soul:Tesco
    Give Protective a bonus for Air, naval ships.
    Charismatic need a boost
     
  6. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,417
    How about the horse units and tanks? I think their main purpose is for invasion. (horse units do need a slight boost, IMO anyway).
     
  7. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    Yeah, I can agree on horses too. But remember horses always have the possibility of coming out of the gate with +2 xp than non-mounted units. No matter the civ.
     
  8. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87
    i dont think most consider charismatic a "weaker" trait

    the most commonly named weaker traits are protective and imperialistic

    if fact I think that protective is almost worthless in alot of cases
     
  9. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87
    melee/gunpowder are invasion troops, but mounted, armored, and helicopter units which do not get defensive bonuses are not?
     
  10. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,602
    Are you referring to the original or the modified Charismatic trait(s) presented in this thread? Is he referring to the same one you are?



    Although the ideas look interesting, I think a number of the traits have increased in complexity (although a few have stayed the same). What I mean by that is the number of benefits/double production buildings has skyrocketed...the OP's Financial trait gets 5 double production buildings! Also, 3 different traits give extra happiness...it's not as bad/repetitive as the UBs, but getting close.

    I also am not a fan of Anastase's suggestions for the same reason--they add more complexity to the already added complexity, especially that suggestion for Financial. 4 different benefits including 5 double production buildings? Way too much in my book.

    I wouldn't recommend giving any trait an advantage in a nuclear exchange--too late in the game, but maybe it's just because I rarely even see the modern era. After all, the UUs and the UBs are limited in use throughout the game (the UUs by technology, and you have to wait to build your UB...and some go obsolete), but your traits are with you from turn 1 until the end. Therefore, I like the current traits, which, although some of the double-production buildings don't appear until later like the Factory, all the traits have "concentrated utility" all throughout the game. Also, it just seems weird to give a certain group of leaders superior nuking capacity.

    Personally, I've always been a fan of the minimalist style...give one or two strong, distinct, and utterly unique benefits, and then stop there. The final "balancer" would be the double production buildings...so some traits, like Financial is now, will have 0 or 1 because of the huge commerce benefit. Weaker "main benefit" traits would receive 2-3 double production buildings as an offset. I really don't like having more than 2 double production buildings, but sometimes that's all I can think of.

    @Munch: Now that all that has been said, I do like some of your ideas, especially with modifying Protective. I have adopted a few of your suggestions into my list as well. I've also considered switching around the Expansive and Imperialistic Settler and Worker bonuses myself, and giving Expansive double production on Aqueducts instead of Harbors (although I still haven't made that switch yet). I'm unsure on changing Creative and Industrious, although your reasoning for doing so is sound.



    My Stuff...
    For my mod, I have been developing an alternate trait list as well. Since this seems to be the thread for trait criticism, I'll go ahead and attach it here. The design parameters for me were a little different...instead of completely re-working the major benefits for each trait, I decided to try and keep the original "Firaxian" spirit of each trait alive, but just rebalance them. So, without further delay, here they are:

    Aggressive
    Free Combat I Promotion on all Melee and Gunpowder Units
    Double Production on Barracks, Stables

    Charismatic
    +1 Happiness in all Cities
    -25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
    +1 Happiness from Monuments, Broadcast Towers

    Creative
    +3 Culture in all Cities
    Double Production on Libraries, Theatres

    Expansive
    +2 Health in all Cities
    +50% Production on Workers
    Double Production on Granaries, Harbors

    Financial
    +1 Commerce on Tiles with 2+ Commerce
    Double Production on Customs Houses

    Imperialistic
    +100% Great General Emergence
    +50% Production on Settlers
    Double Production on Monuments

    Industrious
    +50% Wonder Production
    Double Production on Forges

    Organized
    -50% Civic Upkeep
    Double Production on Courthouses, Factories

    Philosophical
    +100% Great Person Birth Rate
    Double Production on Universities

    Protective
    Free City Garrison I and Drill I Promotions on all Archer and Gunpowder Units
    +1 Happiness from Walls
    Double Production on Walls, Security Bureaus

    Spiritual
    No Anarchy
    Double Production on Temples, Cathedrals
     
  11. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    87
    the orginal
     
  12. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,602
    In that case, it's one of my favorites, and I think one of the best (I always need extra happiness, and that's exactly what Charismatic provides; better troops are also highly useful). The proposed Charismatic in this thread is more like Spiritual, and so you could argue that it's worse.
     
  13. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    i'm surprised people like the new spiritual. to me, the best part looks like the :), which is nice, but not worth giving up the other traits for probably. yes the cheap buildings you potentially get 7 different brands of each one to make. but cathedrals have a limit (1 per 3 temples) and very seldom get built anyway, so i'd call them maybe half of 1/3rd of a building. and monasteries are the only cheap buildings on the entire list that go obsolete, that's a major bummer there, maybe half a building. add in that culture boost suggested in the trait isn't free culture, it's a %age boost, meaning it won't give expansions until something is built, so it's no use in and of itself at first, pretty much helps with culture victories or when you have a border clash.

    so to me the trait is +2 :), +10% culture, and 1 2/3 cheap buildings (potentially x 7).

    i understand your reasoning with taking away no anarchy. but to me that's the strength of current spiritual by far, not the cheap temples, and it needs something really strong to replace it. i think that with the suggested trait, the cheap buildings (all of which give culture themselves) and the culture will be far more useful for culture victories than for any other type of games. and culture victories are where you typically have far less to worry about where happiness is concerned, so after a certain point the +2 :) is completely wasted. :lol: i guess i don't see where it fits in the scheme of things.
     
  14. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,602
    Getting several cheap religious buildings is excessive, I think. Spiritual could use a little boost, so I gave it double production on Cathedrals, but I left the main strength of the trait unchanged. However, +2 happiness is, in my opinion, a really strong benefit. They were giving that to Charismatic before nerfing it slightly to +1 happiness with an extra +1 available from two types of buildings.
     
  15. kristopherb

    kristopherb Protective/Charismatic

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,210
    Location:
    British Empire Soul:Tesco
    If you think about it Charismatic leaders where born form war Churchil,Nap so it makes sence. Pro is for me a counter to Agg (as me being always churchill) thus needs to have boni reflecticing that.city garr1 drill for guns,archers. But most people complain about Protective. Naval, Air units are better now but I think Protective should give them a Bonus Intercept and Strenght.

    Aggressive
    Free Combat I Promotion on all Melee and Mounted and Tanks Units
    Double Production on Barracks, Stables

    Charismatic
    +1 Happiness in all Cities
    -25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
    +1 Happiness from Monuments, Broadcast Towers ,Wonders
    Can draft under any labour civic( not the first one)

    Creative
    +3 Culture in all Cities and ,per Wonders
    Double Production on Libraries, Theatres

    Expansive
    +3 Health in all Cities
    +50% Production on Workers (and food)
    Double Production on Granaries, Harbors

    Financial
    +1 Commerce on Tiles with 2+ Commerce
    Double Production on Customs Houses,
    Market comes with alphbet
    Or free trade route

    Imperialistic
    +100% Great General Emergence
    +50% Production on Settlers (and food)
    Double Production on Monuments
    10% less city maintence

    Industrious
    +50% Wonder Production
    Double Production on Forges
    Forges and Factories don't create :yuk:

    Organized
    -50% Civic Upkeep
    Double Production on Courthouses, Factories
    +10% More hammers
    Units have an extra movement in borders

    Philosophical
    +100% Great Person Birth Rate
    Double Production on Universities
    +50% GG

    Protective
    Free City Garrison I and Drill I Promotions on all Archer and Gunpowder Units
    Free Intrcept to Air units
    Free Strength to ships
    +1 Happiness from Walls
    Double Production on Walls, Security Bureaus

    Spiritual
    No Anarchy
    Double Production on Temples, Cathedrals and Monastries
    +1 gold city with state religion
     
  16. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    870
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Borrowing from other people's idea, this is my list (minus half-price buildings):

    Aggressive: Free C1 for melee, mounted, armored units

    Financial: +25% :gold:, +1 :traderoute: per city

    Industrious: +25% wonder production speed, no :yuck: from forge, factory (coal and oil still cause :yuck:)

    Organized: -50% maintenance

    Spiritual: Double :) for state :religion:, double shrine income from domestic cities, +1 :) from temple, cathedral

    Philosopical: +100% GPP, +10% :science: per city

    Creative: +2 :culture: per city, +1 :) per 10% on :culture: slider

    Expansive: +2 :health: per city, +50% :hammers: in production of settlers, no :yuck: from jungle, floodplains

    Charismatic: +1 foreign relations, +1 :) per city, no anarchy during revolutions, +1 :) from monument, broadcast tower

    Protective: Free CG1, D1 for archery, gunpowder units, +1 :) from walls, castles, +2 :espionage: per city (I was desperate)

    Imperialistic: +2 exp for all siege, naval and air units, +100% GG production rate, -25% exp needed for upgrades

    If I have any changes I'll make them here.
     
  17. Silence101

    Silence101 King

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    745
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Not that the suggestions are necessarily poor, but I think many of the things being suggested are beyond the scope of an XML mod - like doubling shrine income for spiritual civ's... unless you plan on doing some hardcore reprogramming, you may want to simplify these down a bit.
     
  18. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    870
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    I hardly know where to find XML stuff, much less how to mod it, and even less on how to do "some hardcore reprogramming"...
     
  19. GT_OKEZ

    GT_OKEZ Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Messages:
    294
    Philosophical ( really Scientific) :

    • +100% :gp: rate
    • +1 :science: per specialist .
    • +25% production of university

    Creative ( really cultural)

    • +2 :culture:/city
    • +3 :culture: per specialist
    • +10% :culture: per monument
    • Double production : Theatre , Colluseum

    Industrious ( really productive) :

    • +1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
    • +1 :hammers: / specialist
    • +25% production of forge and factory.

    Spiritual ( really religious) :

    • No missionary limit
    • Double production of missionaries, temples , monastaries , special religious buildings ( i.e. synogogues , mosques , mandirs , etc) .

    Financial
    • +10 :gold: per city
    • +2 :gold: per specialist
    • Double production of Market , Grocer , Bank .

    Organized ( really strategic)
    • -50% civic upkeep
    • + 1 :espionage: per specialist
    • +25% production of jail and courthouse .
    • +25% production of spies .

    Imperialistic :

    • +100 Great General emergance
    • -25% need XP for military units

    Charismatic

    • No Anarchy
    • +1 :) per city
    • +1 :) per specialist
    • +1 :) from monument and broadcast tower
    • +1 diplomacy

    Aggressive :

    • Free Combat 1 promotion for melee , archery, gunpowder , mounted AND armored units .
    • +25% production speed of barracks , drydock , AND stables .
    • -1 diplomacy

    Expansive :
    • +3 :health: per city
    • +50% production of settlers .

    * Alternative Expansive ( really Agricultural)
    • +2 :health: / city
    • +1 :food: on tiles with 3 :food:

    Protective :
    • Free CG I and Drill I promotion for archery + gunpowder units .
    • +100% domestic Great General emergence
    • Double production speed of GREAT WALL .
    • +1 :) for walls
    • -1 :traderoute: for FOREIGN cities .
     
  20. Silence101

    Silence101 King

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    745
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I was playing around with some of the ideas presented on this thread and I made a new mod - let me know off hand if you think anything is OP or unbalanced... I amped up most of the traits a bit. In fact, I may have had too much fun with this. Anyway, first off, I added a completely new trait called Stratigic. I reorganized all of the leader traits to include the new one among various leaders (probably half the leaders have completely different traits now - I won't detail that in this post). Let me know what you think -

    PHI: +10% Research / +100% GP modifier / +100% production building Library & University.

    AGG: Combat I promotion for Melee, Gun, Mounted, Armor / +100% production bonus when building Tactical Nuke, Nuke, Biological Missile (I added the NEXT WAR mod, too), Barracks, Stable, Drydocks.

    SPI: +10% Culture / +2 Happiness / +100% production building Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals.

    EXP: +2 Health / +100% production building Settlers, Granery, Aquaduct.

    IND: +1 Production on tiles producing 3 / +50% production building workers / +100% production building Forge / Labor Post (see below).

    CRE: +25% Civic Upkeep (yes, it costs more) / +50% GP modifier / +2 Culture / monuments provide +1 happiness / +100% production building National Wonders, monuments, theatre.

    FIN: +10% Commerce (not gold) / +1 Gold in plots producing 4 / +100% production building market, grocer, bank.

    ORG: -50% Civic Upkeep / +2 Espionage / +100% production building Courthouse, City Hall (see below).

    CHA: +1 Happiness / No Anarchy / Colesseum & Broadcast Tower add +1 Happiness / +100% production building Colesseum & Broadcast Tower.

    PRO: Caity Garrison I promotion to Archer, Gun / +50% domestic GG modifier / Walls (see below) & National Security add +1 Happiness / +100% production building Walls & National Security.

    IMP: -25% Civic Upkeep / -25% Unit leveling experience / +25% GG modifier / +25% GP modifier / +100% bonus to building castles (see below).

    STR (strategic): +25% Civic Upkeep (again, that's a plus sign) / Morale promotion to Melee, Gun, Mounted, Armor / +10% Espionage / +50% GG modifier / +100% production building Intel Agency.

    I made a few building mods as well - Castles are a lot stronger which indirectly makes walls more important. Here's some of the changes -

    Forges: No base production / +25% production with access to Iron / +10% production & +10% gold with access to copper / all other original traits.

    Labor Post (custom building): +25% production with access to stone / +10% production & +10% gold with access to marble / +1 engineer specialist cap.

    Walls: +25% espionage defense in addition to original traits.

    Courthouse: I cut the hammer cost in half for all court house buildings and UB's / city matinence modifier is -25% (-50% for that one Holy Roman UB) / original traits.

    Castle: Available at Monarchy / -25% city matinence / original traits.

    City Hall (custom building): Available at Economics (when castles go obsolete) / -25% city matinence / +1 spy specialist & +1 merchant specialist cap.
     

Share This Page