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Criticise these alternate traits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Munch, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    I've tried it and figured it out. You can assign a bonus to your trade routes as a percentage of the standard commerce you get from them. This bonus can be in :food:, :hammers:, or :commerce: again. So, you can have a trait with +50% :commerce: on :traderoute:, but this looks slightly different in-game; I'll try and explain:

    # Your trait is described (I think) as "+50 :commerce: on :traderoute:", note the lack of a percentage sign.
    # In your city viewer, the value for your trade route yield is boosted appropriately, but when you hover over the value the description is now wrong. Say your trade route is worth 2 :commerce: ordinarily, boosted to 3 :commerce:; the hovering explanation which appears will explain how it is worth 2 :commerce:, but will not mention the +50% you get added on for your trait.

    Things get even more interesting if you assign a food or hammer bonus to trade route yield. A late-game trade route generating 8 :commerce: but with a 25% :hammers: bonus for trade routes would give you 2 :hammers: on top of 8 :commerce:. Sweet!

    I'm now trying to figure out if Industrious would work well with a percentage :hammers: bonus on trade routes. This would solve the initial problem of my Ind being far too powerful early game with the original "+1 :hammers: on 3 (or 4) :hammers:", and would get rid of what I now think is an annoying feature - having to choose your tile upgrades specifically to hit a threshold. Is it fair to say that a late-game (coastal, free market, corporation etc) city would generate between around 12 and 30 commerce from trade routes? If so, then 20% of this in :hammers: wouldn't be overpowering would it? So that's a total (I'm fairly sure that the bonus yield takes into account the trade route total rather than each individual trade route being eligible for a boost) of +2 :hammers: in a late game small city, and +6 :hammers: in a late-game powerhouse.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    Munch, I tried running it like the commerce modifiers but kept getting an error. Can you give an example of the XML change? This might be cool to play around with - sounds like a lot of changes could easily become OP'd though.
     
  3. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    You've probably just got some kind of syntax error, here's what you should have, for some trait in CIV4TraitInfos.xml:

    <TradeYieldModifiers>
    <iYield>10</iYield>
    <iYield>0</iYield>
    <iYield>100</iYield>
    </TradeYieldModifiers>

    This example would give you 10% of your trade route yield in bonus :food:, no bonus :hammers:, and 100% (i.e. doubling) of your trade route :commerce:. I assume that you need all three bonuses to be defined, even if you only use one.

    :goodjob:
     
  4. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    Oh, I was making it too complicated! That was easy - thanks for the info!
     
  5. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    Being that many of these traits are going far beyond my goals with modding, and not to mention what I have modded, I can't comment on specific balance issues except when things look completely out of whack. Some major points have already been made...but I felt the need to comment on this one. I was going to give this benefit you mention to the Babylonian UB instead of that +2 health bonus (maybe just a +1 with this).

    Okay, so I really don't have anything important to say this time because there are a lot of long posts I haven't had the opportunity to digest, but I saw this and thought it was odd I had come up with a similar bonus, only for a different purpose.
     
  6. GT_OKEZ

    GT_OKEZ Warlord

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    New List :


    Industrious:

    • + 1 :hammers: on plots with 3 :hammers:
    • Double Production : Forge, Factory

    Creative :

    • +2 :culture: / city
    • +50% production of world wonders .
    • Double production : Colosseum , Theatre

    Imperialistic :

    • +100% Great General Emergence
    • -25% XP needed for unit promotions
    • Double production : Monument

    Philosophical :

    • +100% Great Person Birth Rate
    • +10% :science: / city
    • Double production : Library , University

    Charismatic :

    • +2 :)/ city
    • -25% :( war wariness ( how does this translate in XML?)
    • Double Production : national wonders ( +100% production national wonders)

    Aggressive :
    • Free Combat I promotion :
    • Melee Units
    • Mounted Units
    • Gunpowder Units
    • Armored Units
    • Double Production : Barracks

    Spiritual :

    • No Anarchy
    • Double Production : Temples , Monastaries

    Expansive :
    • +3 :health:/city
    • +50% production of Settler
    • Double production : Granary

    Organized :
    • -50% civic upkeep
    • Double production : Courthouse , Jail , Security Beurau

    Financial :
    • +25% :gold: ( basically a free market )
    • +1 :commerce: on :traderoute:

    Protective :

    • +100% Domestic Great General Emergence
    • Free CG I and Drill I promotion :
    • Archary
    • Gunpowder
    • Double production : Walls
     
  7. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    I'm not aware of a war wariness modifier associated with leader traits in the xml's - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that can be done with an xml mod. Still, I think it looks decent overall.

    EDIT: Has anyone play-tested the +10% research bonus with PHI? I'm curious how well that balances in the early game - do PHI religion mongers end up founding all of the religions? I've tried it a few times and haven't noticed anything odd, but a few tries is a relatively small sample.
     
  8. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    Your creative trait is incredibly overpowered, and your philosophical and charismatic and pretty OP, too. Also the previous posts just described how much easier it is to add a %bonus to trade routes than a static one.
     
  9. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    So, you can assign food and production bonuses to trade routes? This is SO awesome. I thought about so many possible uses for it (buildings, wonders, traits, etc), I never thought that it could be possible to do it in practic. One question, can you add, say, :science: or :culture: via trade routes too? That could have some awesome application (I thought about a Petra world wonder with a +2 hammers per trade route time ago, and a +2 culture per trade route UB for a custom civ...).

    However, I think that the hammer bonus to trade routes would be more suited for a small bonus for imperialistic trait (+X :hammers: per trade route in capital, as a reflection of the capital / metropolis dynamic and in order to reflect the generally glorious capitals of imperialistic civs).
     
  10. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I do believe there is a tag in the traits XML file for war weariness. They added a few extra tags that in the end were not used...you might find a few gems in there if you look for them.

    The tag for the trade routes only has the food, hammers, and commerce yield tags...not the breakdown of the commerce tags (science, culture, gold, espionage). I forget the terminology used in the XML, but you have the first level, the "yields" if I'm not mistaken, and then the "commerce" level of all the things you can use the sliders for. Each XML tag is designed to only handle "yield" changes or "commerce" changes. Since the trade route tags are designed to handle commerce on the yield level, they can be used to give food and hammers as well. However, unless you added a new tag in the schema or otherwise changed how the tag worked, you would not be able to do anything with the "commerce" level.


    Maybe it's just because I'm starting with and trying to keep the Firaxian style of the traits alive, but why give Philosophical an extra 10% science? It's definitely a top tier trait already, so unless you are completely changing the pace of the game, maintenance, and all that to adjust for the stronger traits, it's going to lead to "runaway" AIs and players. I second dragodon64's comments on the trait suggestions, and I have to wonder whether or not a trait designed to boost production on a per-tile basis is overpowered by its very nature. Imagine the rushing capabilities of a Civ that gets mines up and running quickly...it makes me sick. Financial is top-tier with just that ability alone, but giving a production bonus would easily allow an Industrious leader to produce all the troops he needs and then some. I'm wondering if you could give Industrious +1 hammer in the city square, and then give it either the wonder production if you are keeping the Firaxian trait system or give it double production buildings/other odd-ball benefits for new trait systems.
     
  11. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    I agree that philosophical is ridiculous.

    I'm also not sure how people feel about the combat 1 promo to mounted units. To me they get their bonus because they have stables that give them an extra promotion that regular troops can't get. The mongols would have combat 4 horses coming out without fighting at all. And if you were genghis you'd maybe have more than that, I can't remember the promotional scale with the xp bonus though.
     
  12. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    I'm opposed to it. Free Combat I on your "main" rank-and-file offensive troops, the melee and gunpowder units, is enough of a bonus.

    Helicopters simply aren't that big of a unit category, containing a single unit, so adding that as a boost would have a minuscule effect on the grand scheme of the trait. On giving them a boost to armored units...even that, I am somewhat wary of. I object to it for some of the same reasons as I object to giving the bonus to mounted units, as I will describe below.

    Giving Combat I to all your mounted units would be unbalancing, I think, because they get the Stable bonus, as you mention, and remember that all mounted units typically have greater strength already than their contemporaries. They don't need more of a boost or a relative advantage. With the stables bonus, barracks, a free Combat I, I can get Combat III out the gate with 5 XP. The next promotion would be March at 10 XP...think about that carefully. I could easily, with settled great generals and vassalage or theocracy, get March units out the gate. The highest strength unit of the era, usually with withdrawal chances, that heal on the move.
     
  13. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    About the +10% :science: bonus for philosophical, I think that it was a measure to upgrade the trait since all the other traits were upgraded as well. However, I agree that such a thing might unbalance the game deeply since it would change the pace of the tech tree (which is one of the main pillars of civ, IMHO). I think that instead of that, philosophical could have a building bonus. Double speed to library, university and theater (perhaps) would sufy, me thinks.

    About the industrialist bonus, it is a quite tricky one to balance. A +1 :hammers: to every tile that produces 3 or more :hammers: is easily overpowered. A +1 :hammers: to every tile that produces 4 or more hammers is underpowered. I think that something like this could be a good way to put the trait ina middle ground:

    Industrious

    +1 :hammers: per tile which produces 4 :hammers: or more
    +2 :hammers: per engineer. A mid - late game bonus, it would also force you to have a specialist economy in order to take the best of it, thus nerfing it (it won´t be useful in every situation).

    Industrious (version 2)
    +1 :hammers: per tile which produces 4 :hammers: or more
    +1 :hammers: per tile which produces 5 :food: or more => These tiles are not that common, and would also make sea tiles more useful (crabs and fish with a +1 :hammers:, yumm).
    +2 :hammers: in every city - A final small bonus to complement the other two already small bonuses.

    Great minds thinks alike, perhaps? ;-p just jocking. But I loved your idea about the Babylonian UB. I was really disappointed with Babylon NOT being the culture powerhouse that it should be.
     
  14. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

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    I disagree, I think it beefs up aggressive, which imo needs a bit of a boost.

    It just makes sense that offensive units (which mounted and armored units are as they dont get defensive bonuses or city garrison promos) from an aggressive leader, in fact I would be in favor of removing the bonus from gunpowerder and melee and giving it to mounted and armored.

    And Genghis is not an overpowered leader, he is 3rd even as a war monger (boudica and cyrus are better) and mediocre or bad as an overall leader, he needs a bit of a boost imo, as imperailistic is a weak trait, aggresive is middle of the road, his UB is not that spectacular and actually becomes obsolete, and the keshik is a mediocre UU, nothing like the other imperialistic leaders UU, (prat, landsnecht, redcoat, immortal)
     
  15. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

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    how are troops that receive city garrison promotions and defensive bonuses your "main" rank and file offensive troops and troops that have superior movement and no defensive bonus or city garrison promotion not?

    sorry that just doesnt make sense
     
  16. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    I have to agree with Antilogic on this one - it's a good point that I hadn't considered. If you're going to give Combat I to mounted units, I'd probably a least consider nerfing the exp provided by stables so that it's equal to barracks.
     
  17. keshik22

    keshik22 Chieftain

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    To me the Combat I promotion for mounted units seems fine, mounted units at the moment generally seem to be weaker than melee or gunpowder units. There was a thread recently about horse archers, as I remember most people said they don't use them much. A horse archer is only as strong as swordsman and more expensive IIRC. I use knights a lot but they are very vulnerable to pikemen, get no defensive bonuses and can't get city raider promotions. I think they need a boost given how dominant the knights were historically, free Combat I will make them an alternative to swordsmen/macemen.
    As for the keshiks, maybe this will finally turn them into a decent UU, since currently they don't really represent adequately the Mongol hordes that at their peak were almost unbeatable. All those promotions are actually fitting since the main strength of Mongol horse archers was their training and discipline.
     
  18. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    I agree about Keshiks being underwhelming, and coupled with the Firaxis version of Imperialistic, Genghis seems particularly hard done by.

    I'm not against Combat I for horses (which upgrade to helicopters, hence my original Combat I gift to them too), I don't think one extra promo is going to be game breaking, even if it is 'march' etc. Aggressive is a trait which doesn't help your economy in the slightest, and so should come with some more military advantage; just giving promotions to melee and gunpowder units misses out other 'aggressive' units - the ones which are no good for defending, i.e. mounted/helicopter, armoured, and siege units. Not only that but Keshiks and Cossacks in the hands of aggressive leaders deserve a boost, I believe.
     
  19. Philo_Beddoe

    Philo_Beddoe Chieftain

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    Agreed, I am on my 3rd game with him and have still yet to win on noble, where with the other war mongers, boudica, cyrus, julius, alexander, monty, etc I have cleaned house quite easily.

    His traits are below average, the UU and UB are average at best.
     
  20. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    Part of the problem is that Combat I leads on to excellent promotions, allowing your horses to be built with some high-tier promos straight out of the gate. However, I don't think horses (and elephants, and helicopters) should be excluded from the benefit of Aggressive in principle, as they do not receive defensive bonuses (with certain UU exceptions).

    The XML files are limited in that the free promotion(s) you give for a trait have to apply to all specified unit types; you can't have Combat I for Melee and something else for Mounted, say. So, if Combat I on horses is too much (which is debatable anyway), what about Agg giving a free Flanking I (+10% withdrawal chance) to Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units instead? It wouldn't give horses such a leg-up into the powerful promotions, and would give Melee and Gunpowder units a promotion they wouldn't normally be able to get.
     

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