Crossbow challenge - QSH vs Sitting Bull

[WelshGandalf]

Hi there,

So there was a discussion on another thread about who had the better crossbow rush. Is it China - and specifically QSH as he's marginally better - or Sitting Bull? I decided to start a thread with a game where people could try them out. It's not just about taking out one civ - part of the argument in favour of cho-ku-nus is their longevity.

Speed = Normal. Map = Pangea, no huts or events, so fairly standard.
Difficulty = Monarch, Emperor or Immortal, choose your save.
Yes, I've checked that there's Iron available.

The idea of the crossbow rush is to Oracle metal casting, build/whip a forge and run an engineer from it, then use the great engineer you get from it to bulb machinery. Don't forget to tech Iron Working and Archery too.

Starting screen...



I won't rehash the arguments of reach here, I'll let others make them. Have a go and report on how you did. Suggested things to report on...
1) When did you build Oracle?
2) When did you bulb Machinery?
3) When did you build your first crossbowman?
4) When did the first enemy city fall/first civilization fall?
5) Can you take out another civilization?

I tried this once on Emperor, but got beaten to the Oracle at 1800BC so I worldbuildered that leader out for another one So hopefully that will be less likely to happen to you.

This is my first time creating different saves like this - hopefully there's no issues...

 

[WelshGandalf]

...here's the Sitting Bull saves (limit of 3 attachments per post).

 

[Pangaea]

I'm really looking forward to see the results of this

 

[lymond]

GSs can be an effective approach as well, at least for Qin.

 

[Gumbolt]

Now this could be a lot of fun. Good to see discussion on this forum is not wasted.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I will show you the power of the almighty China soon!

 

[Seraiel]

I will show you the power of the almighty China soon!

Too bad I'm still busy with my current Incan round, though it might be over soon because the GA-Chain just ended and I dropped from +800 GPT to -800 GPT ^^ Would like to battle you again like in that points-game we played for tox_von, I would take Sitting Bull in this Challenge of course.

 

[Keilah]

QSH has better starting techs, can use scientists instead/alongside of engineers, is better at building oracle, is better at building forges, and gets +1 first strike & collateral damage.

SB gets a 100% safe barb defense, is PHI, and gets +3 exp on his archery units if you make a monument.


TBH this doesn't seem even CLOSE. QSH by a mile if you ask me. Cho-Ko-Nus only need a few spears/eles/pikes for support and thanks to collateral you can roll a pangaea without ever (self)-teching past machinery + feudalism. X-bows alone will usually only take a single civ, and then you need to get collateral from somewhere else.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Not only is QSH stronger in this situation for getting to Mach, but the Cho-Ko-Nus are quite a bit better than SBs super Crossbows that are harder to get to. But both are good, Phil is about on par with Ind for getting to Mach, just China has better starting techs.

 

[vranasm]

Hm hm worth the watch and maybe even worth the try

the limit for saves isn't 3, you just add 3 attachments per upload (or that's how I understood it)

you could have used zip of course

What is the task here? Who starts building Bows first or who wins first?

I am not sold on the Oracle strategy since as you already found out it can backfire very quickly if you lose the Oracle race.

 

[Mylene]

So much talk about the Oracle, but..

Spoiler :

Why would you want that here if you could get Pyras on turn 54 with Qin instead?

 

[vranasm]

I will most probably use Qin (china) if I remember right he starts with Agri and Mining (wheel would be better for me in this start though)

I probably will SIP, start teching TW->pottery, build worker improve wheat and hopefully can start on cottaging flood plains.

Then will have to decide for BW x AH.

Pigs are very strong tile here and AH opens writing which both arguments are strong, so will have to gave it a second look.

It's questionable if I will self tech Archery here after tw, pottery, bw/ah, since it will be needed anyway and Qin is protective.

Writing will be right after bw, ah (maybe archery) to start the libraries. Then of course bank gold for aesthetics rush, hoping for soon alpha, math from AI's (of course IW)

not sure if will selftech MC or trade or bulb.

One possible strategy could be skipping AH and BW and tech hunting->Archery as defense to speed Writing through pottery to get scientists sooner (will have to check ingame once I get to the saves evening).

Expansion will be around 3-4 cities max.

 

[bhavv]

The oracle still isnt likely on this map as Isabella will build it very fast. I wouldnt have picked her at all if making such a challenge. Pyramids makes a lot more sense for Qin, and its not going to be likely to Oracle anything on Immortal difficulty with Sitting Bull against Isabella AI, so IMO its not an ideal map to compare the two leaders for this tactic.

You need to pick 0 IND / Mysticism start Civs for Oracle slingshotting to be reliable on Immortal difficulty, otherwise theres no point to even bothering with the tactic.

I would take Sitting Bull in this Challenge of course.

I wish you luck getting the Oracle, I think you have to skip all techs and start with Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood to stand a chance at it against Immortal Isabella, I didnt want to do that and lost it constantly by teching Agri and BW first.

You just dont put Isabella into a game which is trying to test for Oracle tactics.

 

[Seraiel]

bhavv, come on, you don't need 0 myst 0 IND civs to get oracle. I get it on Deity with Myst and IND Civs in 9/10. Sometimes it's just unlucky, but getting MC isn't too difficult.

Btw.: 670 AD atm (other game I have to finish first) : 160 cities 1.6M points

 

[vranasm]

bhavv, come on, you don't need 0 myst 0 IND civs to get oracle. I get it on Deity with Myst and IND Civs in 9/10. Sometimes it's just unlucky, but getting MC isn't too difficult.

Btw.: 670 AD atm (other game I have to finish first) : 160 cities 1.6M points

I demand the mystery of whip turn timer solved! it's bugging me like for 2 weeks (or more?)

 

[WelshGandalf]

The oracle still isnt likely on this map as Isabella will build it very fast. I wouldnt have picked her at all if making such a challenge. Pyramids makes a lot more sense for Qin, and its not going to be likely to Oracle anything on Immortal difficulty with Sitting Bull against Isabella AI, so IMO its not an ideal map to compare the two leaders for this tactic.

....
You just dont put Isabella into a game which is trying to test for Oracle tactics.

I took out Charley who got it in 1800 BC in my Emperor game I went BW then pottery them priesthood and got about 2 or 3 turns of building the Oracle done before I was beaten to it.

I did think about removing myst-starting leaders from the game, but I wanted it to be a "real world" kind of test... where if you go for the Oracle, you're not guaranteed to get it. It also shows up QSH's benefit in starting with mining (quicker to get BW for chopping) and Industrial (quicker Oracle). You can always try other difficulty levels. It's quite possible that one civ has a better xbow rush at one difficulty level and another civ is better on another level.

Also I was wary of messing up the saves by doing too much text-editting - as I say it's my first time fiddling around with WB saves.

Pigs are very strong tile here and AH opens writing which both arguments are strong, so will have to gave it a second look.

I quite liked this start for this reason. In the other thread there was discussion on whether to get AH before Oracle or not, and I think it remains a pertinent question here.

 

[Grashopa]

Can someone conjure up a deity save?

 

[Mylene]

Can someone conjure up a deity save?

psst, you will make the bunnies angry..!

..oracle will auto-fail in maybe ~20% of all games, last resort wonder for me.
If we take truly random maps, including weaker starts.
Pyras turn ~55 can rarely be lost on *evil word* too, but i'd say impossible for Imm. AIs.

 

[Htadus]

Can someone conjure up a deity save?

Grrrrr. Oh for crying out loud.

psst, you will make the bunnies angry..!

So do I qualify as bunny now? All my life i have been said to be more brute than bunny and this may be my last chance to be loveable and cuddly.

 

[vranasm]

psst, you will make the bunnies angry..!

..oracle will auto-fail in maybe ~20% of all games, last resort wonder for me.
If we take truly random maps, including weaker starts.
Pyras turn ~55 can rarely be lost on *evil word* too, but i'd say impossible for Imm. AIs.

I hope the claimed strategy is not mandatory lol i definitely will not try for oracle with my first playthrough.