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Cry Baby Boomers

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Bugfatty300, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    These are all things that have gotten worse for gen x, millenials and gen z after starting from a high point with the boomers. You're sort of proving the point here imo. These are all fantastic points and I think very valid, but they show exactly what we're talking about with respect to generalizations about earlier generations and conditions getting worse. And it's worth pointing out that the boomers have largely been in charge of the apparatus that affected these changes over time from the media, to the schools, to the pharma industry and the government which created the regulatory environment that enabled the pharma industry to become what it is since the late 70's and 80's.
     
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  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    That's what I was trying to do, with regard to a thin slice of the people.
     
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  3. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I mean, sure you didn't explicitly say it - and in fact you did explicitly say your life was good in the 70's - but it's threaded through all of your posts. Starting with this caricature of the OP, which I take to be an implicit rejection of the OP by way of the premise that not all boomers had it good:
    Then you go on to tell us how much disability and discrimination sucks in your life, how you had to do traumatic air raid drills, how crappy sexism was/is, etc etc.

    So while you don't come out and say it, you paint the picture for us. And that's fine, no one is disputing any of your hardships or any of the structural issues you have had to confront. But that's not the point of the OP or the generalization that is being made.

    Millenials became the largest voting block in 2016 and have done piss all to stop the madness.
    Edit: Err, I guess a lot of them are protesting now. We'll see if that translates to election action

    All of the wealth held by the Boomers who are not part of the 1% will be swallowed up by end-of-life medical costs, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  4. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    From what I've seen the elderly on farms fail to tell their families about left arm pain sometimes to avoid exactly that. Happened with grandma on a really cool small operation up the road a ways. I miss her, obviously a lot less than her family does, but she was entirely too badass to make that trade.
     
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  5. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    And I've had many non-farming relatives and friends run up enormous medical bills for pointless interventions. One of the shaping medical experiences I went through second-hand was when the Boomer son of my Greatest Generation neighbor put her through invasive brain surgery to combat a tumor that was only one of many so that she died an agonizing, lonely death while heavily drugged up instead of at home. Not only was it traumatic, the procedure probably shortened her life rather than extended it. And even if it could have extend her life, all it would have done was extended the suffering.

    But it was his mom and his choice to make as he was empowered to make those decisions. How many will make similar trades in misguided efforts to save themselves and their loved ones? And with our medical system as messed up as it is, these choices will empty a lot of family coffers.
     
  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    You made a whole post following up on it. I was hardly picking at a single word ;)

    But yeah, let's roll on. Marriage rates are quantifiable. Reasons for marriage, less so. Reasons for not marrying, even less. To bring this back to poor men, and the change in trends across generations . . . I've got to ask you - do you think someone is saying poor men don't have it hard? Do you think anybody is saying poor people don't have it hard?

    Heck, in one of the links you gave, in the bit that I quoted, it outlined how black men from low income backgrounds have it worse - even compared to white men in the same socioeconomic situation.

    This is why the OP focused on white boomers. This is why it's a relevant constraint on the discussion. No?
     
  7. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    @Birdjaguar
    You have made the argument that Boomer wealth will be passed down before and it's always bugged me but I couldn't put my finger on the why. Well I thought on it, and I have to say it is kind of a messed up take on the situation. Implicitly, that take acknowledges the vast hoarding of wealth that's been had by one generation. Explicitly, it says rather than attempt to fix any of that badly apportioned wealth in the here and now, we should instead wait for people to die and then get a share of it. That's just bad economic and social planning in my opinion and it also tends to strengthen, rather than counteract, that misappropriation going forward.

    The stereotypical Boomer had five siblings but they each had only one or two kids themselves. In spite of this, the population has grown rather than shrink as more immigrants have come into the country and had children at higher rates than the typical Boomer. These black and brown children will not be having any slice of that Boomer inheritance and indeed that inheritance will tend to be concentrated in fewer hands as it passes to less people than it started with.

    So not only is the Millenial and Gen Z cohort browner and blacker than the Boomers, they are and will continue to be poorer as well as a whole. A few of the lucky ones will of course inherit good chunks of money (at least that which isn't eaten by healthcare) but the majority of the cohort will not get a damn thing as the Boomers die off.

    All of that is on top of the fact that this theory of wealth-by-inheritance is terrible socioeconomic planning and policy to begin with; I can't think of a more direct way to an official, landed aristocracy than that.
     
  8. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Well, even white boomers live in a better world probably on total than they grew up in. More people are more educated. Women have it better and that's better for everybody. People can get out of the worst marriages, generally, and that's good for everybody. Single moms can keep their kids more frequently and that's good for everybody. Gay people are less poorly treated than they were and that's good for everybody.

    Nobody is saying poor people don't have it hard, we're trying to track changes from then until now, the differences being the point of the thread. The poor are generally obese now instead of calorie-short. It's not good to be malnourished and either, but one is probably better than the other. About the only part of the generalization in the OP I can find having any merit at all is that men, of all walks, without college educations are probably getting crapped on in social standing. Their relative incomes have tanked, their likelihood of finding longstanding and supportive intimate relationships has decreased. Their ability to own a bit of space for themselves has decreased, they're frequently the butt of jokes in popular culture particularly in their ability to parent(even as the average millenial father spends about 3x as much time with his kids as ~50 years ago(but then again the lower incomes increasingly don't have a father figure around regularly for total loss of that)) and their sexuality is treated more frequently as a problem rather than a feature of the species with positive channeling. That isn't limited white dudes, it's just dudes, no.
     
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  9. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    It's probably closer to the top 20-25% of households who are mostly immune to healthcare bankruptcy. And if I am remembering this right, 5% of people consume 50% of health care costs that all of us pay for. Health care costs solutions are not simple.

    i have said boomer wealth will be passed down. That is a true statement. I have not characterized it as good or bad, just that it will happen. The fact that some, certainly not all, boomers are wealthy is obvious. Your point about what should be done about it is an interesting one. Current tax laws allow unrestricted gifting of up $15,000 per year, every year, by people to any other people they choose without tax consequences to either the giver or the receiver. I can give my daughter that amount and my wife and give her that amount. I could give you that amount too. People do do that. I do not know how much wealth passes that way every year. Does that count? Whether or not you like inheritance and how it keeps wealth in families, it is what we have. You certainly don't have to save money for your soon to arrive son or put money aside for his education, you can pass your excess earnings to folks outside your family. And if you build a stock portfolio in the coming decades, you get to decide what to do with it. there are lots of folks who will gladly accept any gifting you do to them. i'm open to suggestions on how how you would do things differently. Who do you take wealth from; how do you take it; who do you give it to? :)

    If your idea is that we need to redistribute boomer wealth now to those who do not anticipate getting any from family, that seems to be in line with those who want to immediately trade capitalism for socialism. I'm not an expert at predicting the future, but for most people their peak earning years are their 40s and 50s. Millennials are not there yet.

    So what are the problems Millennials face? Add to or change.
    • High healthcare insurance costs
    • College debt
    • Parents who are not rich (= lack of capital on which to build future wealth)
    • Can't afford the house they want? Any house?
    • Pandemic linked changes to how we live and work
    • Wrong skills for current demand?
    • Live in the wrong place?
    What are your solutions?
     
  10. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    The OP says how white boomers came into a better world than there was previously. The question is what happened from then. The questions were originally framed in language often directed at the younger generations. Why is "bootstraps" mentality so prevalent in a generation that wasn't even present (for example) during a world war? And why has it continued now as some kind of (nominally) useful advice?

    So maybe we're coming at this from cross-angles. You seem to be focusing on men in general - not boomer men. Not even white men (nothing wrong with that - just illustrating the contrast). You're not really differentiating from then vs. now - you're focusing on how men have it (increasingly) difficult in various aspects. Am I right? I don't really want to get into this kind of focus, because to me it's kinda missing the point. But I could be missing your point.
     
  11. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Whats the draw in oppression Olympics and figuring out what team gets whining rights anyway?

    How is this score keeping helping change the world in any positive way?
     
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  12. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Who said anything about allowing whining rights?

    Understanding generational conflict should be self-explanatory in terms of helping change the world. That's what discussions are for. If you don't want to join in, nobody's forcing you.
     
  13. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The pictures, charts and graphs did not copy. From tonight's WSJ.

    Millennials Slammed by Second Financial Crisis Fall Even Further Behind
    The economic fallout of the Covid pandemic has been harder on millennials, who are already indebted and a step behind on the career ladder from the last financial crisis. This second pummeling could keep them from accruing the wealth of older generations.
     
  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Too bad we get Millennial for our moniker, I always sort of thought my grandparents' Lost generation had a certain ring to it.
     
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  15. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I know it's a bummer neither Warren or Sanders won the primary but there are bright spots. Cortez and Talib crushed their opponents in their primaries and Cory Bush and Jamal Bowman's victories were pretty huge. It might be slow moving but neoliberalism is suffering its death rattle.
     
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  16. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I just realized that I omitted something I'd intended to say here. I stand by what I said about the Cold War/WWIII things mentioned before. I'm not kidding when I said that a steady diet of political stuff on TV and in the newspapers, warnings about the environment, people trying to give the people and politicians a wakeup call being mocked, and the steady diet of "doomsday" things in the curriculum of a couple of my core high school subjects really did give me nightmares. I'm glad part of that's over now (WWIII is no longer as much a concern, though the climate certainly is).

    I don't come at these threads only from what has been discussed here. If I've had a crappy day because of some idiot in RL, on FB, on some other forum, something I read on the news site, etc., I'm not going to be in a great mood when I read a generalized slam against my generation's label.

    I will admit that I'm somewhat guilty of generalizations, though it usually comes out in the context of Star Trek fandom. Compared to fans in the '60s and '70s, fans born in the '80s and later are spoiled for a number of reasons which I'd be happy to talk about in the Star Trek thread in A&E.

    But this thread, I'm sure, has more important things to discuss than Star Trek fans.

    Disability and discrimination do suck in my life, in Synsensa's life, in Aimee's life, and in the lives of every other person who isn't treated with consideration and is denied a normal, basic service due to being disabled - and for a long time the various levels of government either shrugged or made laws but didn't make them enforceable. That's been in the past, it's going on now, and is probably going to go on for many years to come. As Synsensa said in another thread, we're the demographic least likely to be able to mount an effective public protest, so we're more easily ignored.

    I do my protesting by writing - on news sites (there's a lot of confusion and misinformation going around about voting procedures and rights), on social media, and to the media. I've related how I got static last year when trying to cast a ballot for the provincial election. I had an ace in my sleeve that I'm glad I didn't need to play because they'd have accused me of doing this for a media stunt. A couple of days before that, I'd written to a CBC reporter who did an article on how to vote if you can't get to the polling station. She didn't say anything about disabled voters so I wrote and asked her to do another article and mention this, because we're often overlooked and even some candidates have no idea about the options open to us and why we need them. She agreed to, and wished me luck and asked me to let her know how my own voting experience went.

    If it had gone much worse, I might have commented that "this is going to make interesting reading when I tell the CBC reporter I've been emailing with that you're not going to let me vote because you don't understand the rules or my rights." But as I said, I'm glad it didn't go that far.

    I did not say the air raid drills were "traumatic". They were scary at the time when they happened, because you're carrying on in a normal school day, the siren goes off, and you have to immediately drop what you're doing, no matter what it is, and "duck and cover". No exceptions, and like a fire drill (do schools still have those?), you never knew if it was just a drill or the real thing.

    I did say they were useless, as even when I was a kid and saw a film of how buildings were blown apart by the test bombs, I wondered how "duck and cover" was supposed to save us. I concluded that they would not. This was just a part of what led to the nightmares, not all of it. I blame the news more than the drills (which did not continue past the early '70s, after I changed schools; I don't actually know if the city schools were doing these drills, as they didn't happen during my last 2 years in elementary school), and the constant diet of doom/gloom/war/post-apocalypse material in some of my core high school subjects.

    When you get that for 4 hours/day, every day, have to write essays about WWIII, the Diplomacy game is part of Grade 12 Social Studies, and most of the books on the reading list for Social Studies and English involve war or post-apocalypse material, and then go home to hear on the news that some treaty talks got stalled again, Carter said this, Reagan said that, a flock of birds got mistaken for a cruise missile... In addition, this was after I started reading any and all science fiction I could get my hands on, as well as a slew of science books. I learned at age 12 how stars form, what they're made of, and what happens to them (and their planets when their time is up - it's kinda disturbing stuff even now, once you think of what it means for survival of any life on this planet). It adds up.

    Thankfully I don't have nightmares due to that anymore. I have never forgotten what I did have, though, or how frightening it was, over 40 years later.

    I'm not claiming my classmates felt this way, as I don't know. I didn't have much contact with most of them outside of class. There was one poetry interpretation assignment in English - "The Horses" - where we had to do it in a group and my other group members couldn't grasp the idea that the poem was about a world recovering after World War III. "World War III hasn't happened yet," they insisted. I told them that doesn't mean someone can't write a poem about it. The teacher overheard our conversation and told the others to listen to me because I was right.

    But notice this: "World War III hasn't happened yet." That's how we talked about it; even though most people didn't think it was imminent, there was an expectation that it would come... but not yet. Nobody I knew back then outright dismissed it. It was always "yet".

    And sexism IS crappy. Be grateful Mary isn't here to expand on that. I'm much more easygoing on that subject than she is.

    The title of the thread is "Cry Baby Boomers." According to the generational categories, I am a baby boomer (born in 1963; parents born in the '30s and '40s ; raised mostly by grandparents born before WWI). I am telling people here my own perspective on this. If you prefer not to read my posts, you don't have to. But if you do, keep in mind that I post from my own perspective and that doesn't necessarily fit into any of the boxes people are expected to tick.
     
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  17. RobAnybody

    RobAnybody Emperor

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    It's entertaining for us Gen Xers? Fight for our amusement!! One generation enters, one generation leaves! Pass the popcorn & the bong from the other side of the couch. Granted, many of my child-rearing peers are spending 24/7 tearing their hair out trying to watch their Zoomers while WFH, but this endless sniping across generations is the best show on Netflix right now. Incidentally, if y'all wanna gang up & blame us, we don't care. Go ahead. Not giving AF is our thing.
     
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  18. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    :goodjob:

    People who want to put you in a box are simple minded anyway
     
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  19. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    I think this baby boomer thing is much related to the country you talk about.

    I am a 1955 babyboomer and when I left parental house at 19 all my belonging that I had to move did fit easily in a suitcase the size my daughters had each when we went on holidays. Because I had no suitcase I needed three bicycle trips to move things over: one hand on my steer, one hand holding the plastic garbage sack with stuff.
    Besides the books needed for my university, I had four books. Three from my grandfather as birthday gift, one about aquaria from my parents. Books bought by my parents were never for one kid (I have two brothers and one sister).. they were for all kids and as first one to leave home, those books stayed at home. The many books I did read were all from the public library.
    The aquarium and the chip munk I had, the art I had made at school, and the family post stamp collection I added to, stayed all at the parental home.

    This rather poor situation was what 90% of the kids of my age had in NL.

    When my parents put me for secondary school for religious reasons at the elite calvinistic gereformeerd gymnasium of the Netherlands in Amsterdam, I saw how the other 10% lived. Though mostly still in the frugal version of that 10% ofc.

    If there is one big difference I see between my age group and young people today....

    "we" were in the winning mood...

    Not based on evidence... but simply because of our numbers and the power of our imagination... up to the 1968 political battle cry "power to our imagination"
    Our parents and the political and intellectual establishment had no answer because they just could not imagine anything else than their own boring complacency based on the indeed great succes of building up our country after WW2.

    Some of us were more political.... most of us simply carved out their own pride and optimism in the future
    as answer to adults only causing issues with the nuclear threat, Vietnam, bigotry from fossil patriarchal inertia, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  20. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    Imagination is critical to remaining young in mind, if not in body. I've worked at keeping mine alive and functioning. I don't want to be like the 12-year-old kid who saw me at the bus stop reading "Dicing With Dragons" (strategy book for tabletop RPGs) and sneering that "there's no such thing as dragons" and not understanding when told that there are - in your imagination.

    I don't want to be like an ex-friend from high school who went to a science fiction convention (we were roommates) and couldn't wrap her head around the idea that putting on a hall costume and going in search of room parties and filking at 9 pm Friday night was a normal thing. I got into my costume (long red dress, jewelry, accessories, shoes), opened the door to leave and she promptly shrieked at me to "shut the door!". I have no idea what the problem was. I was decently dressed, so was she, and nobody in the hall was paying the slightest attention. I guess wearing long, floor-length dresses is considered weird now ('now' being relative since this happened about 35 years ago).

    Funny thing about dresses... I got used to wearing long ones in the SCA; we had 3 meetings/month and were expected to wear costumes to them. I got comfortable doing that, to the point where I have no problem putting one on and walking around the main part of town and not being the least bit self-conscious about it. But shorter-length? No, thank you. I remember the last two times I willingly wore a knee-length dress... once when I did ushering for a theatre production of "Grease" - we were asked to dress in '50s style, and once for my cousin's wedding. Both occasions were 30+ years ago.

    I never want to be like my grandfather's cousin who came to visit on the same day I had to go to an SCA tournament and feast. I was being picked up by my boyfriend and another friend (both guys), and when I came down in my long black dress, black shoes with red trim, shawl, cloak, jewelry and accessories, carrying my nef kit (dishes, tablecloth, candles; SCA feasts are held by candlelight in a dark hall) and bookkeeping stuff (I was in charge of the troll table)... my grandmother sighed. Her friend from across the street admired my outfit and said she wished she was 20 years younger so she'd have the energy to come with me. Our cousin looked at me with disapproval and decided I'd joined a cult. Then when the guys drove up and got out of the car, she took one look at their costumes and freaked out: "THOSE MEN ARE WEARING DRESSES!" :eek: :mad: :eek: :run: :eek: No amount of explaining that they were properly-dressed 15th-century men wearing tunics and hose and about half the rest of the men at the feast and tournament would be similarly dressed made any impression.

    My grandmother's friend thought it was a little odd but still "neat" and my grandmother just sighed and tried to pretend that this all wasn't happening. Horrors, I'd embarrassed her in front of my grandfather's cousin.

    Anyway, I told her I'd be back sometime between midnight-1 am (we had to stay behind and clean the church basement and kitchen after the feast) and off the three of us went, being carefully watched by three little old ladies peering at us through the kitchen window.
     
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