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Cultist from OO too imba?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Lt_Kain, Jun 7, 2008.

  1. Lt_Kain

    Lt_Kain Chieftain

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    We have played a long game with 4 friends, and my team finaly won tks to a vicious technic consisting of creating fleets with 3 OO cultist and Man o War and using tsunami before attacking the costal cities. No one can stop those attacks because it reduces even a Phalanx 16 Str to 4 str before the first blow.. And i don't speak of the range of this spell. The cultist is very easy to have (low tech) comparing to the other spell we can say it is maybe to strong ... And it destroys also all the enhancements of every costal lands.

    I think maybe the max damage for the spell for one unit should be changed or maybe another effect ?

    Regards,
     
  2. Viatos

    Viatos Prince

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    Yeah....tsunami is mad BS. There's no balance in OO. Cultists are so good, Drown/S-guards are so bad...now, if you want to make it REALLY silly, get an Adept of Body and Water to hit-and-run Tsunami. There's no hope for defenders here, unless you've got like a 20 strength unit with a 150% def bonus or something.
     
  3. MiKa523

    MiKa523 Nerdish by Nature

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    Agreed that it's way to strong.
    Imho they should screw the damage to enhancements (maybe only a chance to destroy improvements in water), limit the damage you can receive by the tsunami to like 50% of your max. Str. and then in addition make it work on river tiles to make the religion less worthless on low water maps.
     
  4. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    You played a game and won! Good for you!

    However, just because you won, doesn't mean your strategy is too strong. Considering the great many things that contribute to a victory, the fact you had a decent plan of attack for coastal cities isn't that great.
     
  5. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    "the enemy has cities that arent coastal, what will we do?" "this is impossimable!!!"
     
  6. TheJopa

    TheJopa Šumar

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    Your enemy should have built a navy, too.

    As for tsunami, I haven't used it enough to say is it overpowered or not.
     
  7. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    it was overpowered when it could destroy an entire city and every unit in it (turning the tile into water as well) in 1 attempt, now its just a nice spell that can only be used near water
     
  8. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    Not to mention that typhoon can damage your own units, last I checked at least. It's powerful, but its limits make up for it. Ring of fire and maelstrom can be cast anywhere, but have a smaller range. Works out nicely.
     
  9. MiKa523

    MiKa523 Nerdish by Nature

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    Nope, ring of fire can't be cast anywhere unless you are willing to either hurt your own units or declare war at other civs.
     
  10. Lt_Kain

    Lt_Kain Chieftain

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    Your oponents cannot really build a strong navy because of the range of the spell, you just have to cast on tsunami to reduce a fleet of 20 ships to half their strenght (imagine: you cast 2 tsunami:p). THe only way to bit an OO guy that play mass cultist is to attack immedialty. Other options are, i will say, useless ;)
    If you oponent hide his fleet into his city cast tsnumani, no fleet either ;) And yes there are other spells but stunami is SO easy to have... just build a cultist !!! No adept transformed into mage ...
    My winning is not very relevant, let 's just say that cultist have done the job by itself.
     
  11. Gromblmompf

    Gromblmompf Chieftain

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    Stunami. :) I like that.
     
  12. Blackmantle

    Blackmantle King

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    Well. Guess what: No different for Tsunami. (not that your statement is wrong. Its important to note in respect to the assesment the OP has done. ;))


    As it is now Maelstorm is a far more serious problem in its current form (yes its far more useful than even Tsunami is. Save perhaps Archipelago maps... :rolleyes:). Oh and it doesnt have smaller range than Tsunami and it isn't only limited to sea and cost.


    OO is really good on Water? Guess what: Its supposed to be! :p Kilmorph is good for Gold and Production, Fol is good for Elves and in Forest and so on. You can't build cultists if your State-Religion is not OO.


    Oh and that the opponent could not build a navy to retaliate because of the Range is just BS (20 Ships are killing a few Cultists in a blink.). Caravel + Oarsmen + Navigation 1 = not possible to reach by Tsunami before the Caravel hits you. That counts for most ships btw. Especially if Air 1 is thrown into the mix.
    Haste (which requires a Water-Walking Mage or a Boat-Going Adept / Vampire) is your only chance to even reach the Caravel with your spell! (let alone with the Cultist itself) if you are in its range. And Air 1 can not be used on Cultists... ("Only" haste can)
    Not to mention an Air 2 loaded on a the Caravel as well. That whould mean cultists suck in that comparison. (And to note: They don't since its not just a 1 on 1 combat and unlike ships they can attack units on land directly. They are supposed to be good on Sea. Its just far from them being invincible or the only feature in the Game that is really strong.)

    Very noteworthy is also Arcane Barges. They do the same thing to a Stack of Cultists and also costal. :p
    + they Bombard City defenses (to cities up to 2 Squares from the sea. (sorry had a misquote here. I belive Fireballs can't bombard anymore if run out of movement. Right?))
    + they can also units kill directly with their fireballs (unlike tsunami).
    + they can attack Stacks / City defenders and Units up to 2 Squres from the sea. (and with shipyards they are easier to mass-build as experienced versions)
    + they carry units (like Air 2 Casters which also speed up the Barges with Air 1)

    And they don't require you run OO to build them.

    Now if the AI should grasp that one... (and its in the works just now.)

    Cultists are good against AI? Guess what: Everything is right now. AI is not done as of yet. Wait and see. When it will, might be you will long for the time it was easy prey.

    Cultists are good against players? Depends on the player. Play some more and you will find a way around it or an opponent who does...

    Trust me. Just because you don't have grasped everything in the game yet (and few players really have. The game is extremely diverse) and find something powerful that did help to win in your! game doesn't mean its overpowered outright. Such things might be said after! many tests in multiplayer against experienced multiplayers, which are indeed around. (and then FFH2 isn't designed mainly for multiplayer but mainly for singleplayer.)

    For example: Have you tried to charm those cultists for once (then they can't attack anymore for some time)? Or even better: Entangle them with a cultist turned druid :D.
    Then 1. They cant cast Tsunami anymore 2. Can't move anymore 3. That cultist-druid can Tsunami them! next round. After that those poor chaps are fooder for your Caravels, Privateers and Frigates or Arcane Barges.
    Oh and you only need one Druid for that. Even for a big stack of them.



    That said i whould go as far as agreeing that Tsunami needs a lower damage cap (50% sounds good in my book). But so does Maelstorm (which should have 25% or 30% at the max.) and it needs to be higher than Maelstorms since it offers less utility / is more specialized.
    But i think that all stack-busting spells should be a bit more limited. And thats not because Tsunami is especially outstanding in comparison.
     
  13. TheJopa

    TheJopa Šumar

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    Good point here. Tsunami shouldn't damage boats. Not only because of gameplay, but in reality tsunamis have no effect on boats, on open seas they are just a bit more than a standard wave.
     
  14. Pyr0mancer

    Pyr0mancer Prince

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    You forget that it's almost never used in open seas, rather, it's usually cast to reduce coastal cities/units. Therefore, the tsunami would have already broken, resulting in a wave that is very dangerous indeed to ships. Furthermore, you're referring to standard, nonmagical tsunamis generated by tectonic activity, not tsunamis generated by questionably sane priests serving insane voices from the nightmares of a sleeping god.

    As for limiting stack-busting spells, I don't think all of them should be nerfed. Tsunami should probably have a lower damage limit, Maelstrom REALLY needs either a range or damage limit reduction, but the rest are fine, I'd say. Some alternative to fireball mages needs to exist. Crown of Brilliance is amazingly powerful, but it's limited to 4 Luridus and Chalid. Pillar of Fire, perhaps overpowered but considering it's the Empyrean's only hero, it's fine how it is. Destroy Undead is very specialized, though against Sheaim it works wonders.
     
  15. Lt_Kain

    Lt_Kain Chieftain

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    I don't want to change it totally, i am just saying it needs limits ..
     
  16. ophite

    ophite Chieftain

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    Uh. Cannibal/March Drown, especially teamed with a Cultist, are awesome in the early game. Once you get them high enough to get Fear, they're an unstoppable core of an offensive midgame army. And it's not that hard to get them if you rush early, using warriors to farm XP for your Drown until they're capable of tearing through entire enemy empires on their own.

    When I play Lanun, Drown always form the core of my offensive army -- they're Axemen with no building requirement, awesome Undead promos, and waterwalking.

    -- ACS
     
  17. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    Drown cost 50% more than axeman, and can't keep a cities population happy, meaning you'll need to build warriors too. They are good military units, but let's not ignore their weakness.
     
  18. smusebaer

    smusebaer Warlord

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    What about delay 1 Round for Massdestruktionspells. I think that would be a lot of fun. It would degrade Spells like this a lot, but if you hit the enemy army, strike!!!!:goodjob::nuke:
     
  19. Pyr0mancer

    Pyr0mancer Prince

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    That would just make the AI even less competitive, since humans know how to dodge but AI probably can't be taught to easily.
     
  20. wicshade

    wicshade crazy, militant farmer

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    U need cold imune, if u have that tsunami is nothing, I don't think that any of the spells are over powered; magic resistance is just isn't a viable route for normal units. but if u are playing a water map and u r not OO then your hero has to have resistances to cold, unless you don't build on the coast.
     

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