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Cultivating a dose of Anglophilia!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Cam_H, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Spoiler :
    Bravo! That was nimble thinking. :goodjob:
     
  2. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    My thought on strategies.

    This early on it does not matter what kind of victory one want to peruse.
    Cultural victory does not need multiply religions. I would claim that 2 religions are good, 3 a little better any more are mostly useless due to diminished returns.

    After 2 cathedrals effect of any more is decrease due to diminished returns. After 3 it take longer to build everything needed to fourth cathedral instead of just cranking culture and finishing the game.

    So, I do not worry about early religions. I am confident I always will be able to get 2 later religions, if I have good economic development.

    So, I just develop normally and I do not know how you, but I do not particular want to run 100% culture with JC as my neighbor. I better take axe to him.

    Scouting did reveal that our neighbors have stone and marble in fat cross of capitals or near by. I did not see any other source of stone or marble, if I remember correctly.

    So, there could be 2 plans for future from my safe:

    1). Kill JC.

    2) Attempt to build Stonehenge/oracle first using supper shield capital and Kill JC a bit later.

    Choice depends on will JC take cooper from our original cite or not.

    If he will I probably will liberate him from it using warriors rush. :)

    From one point of view JC existence enable technological trade, from other he is a pain in a rear.
     
  3. FeedBack

    FeedBack Time for some FeedBack!

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    Well, I won't be the one holding the pace anymore. It's amazing how fast one can play the starting turns...

    Spoiler :
    Well, I started with the default: settled in place and researched Mysticism. After some thinking, I started a Warrior at London. I would have no worker techs. Then, it was Polytheism and I started on Stonehenge. Yeah, this early. Only to let the city grow to size 3. Then, I started a Settler. Hinduism founded. I decided not to have a two headed-hydra. Meditation would take 7 turns. I started on Bronze Working, which would take 11 turns, for Slavery. In turn 9 of research, Buddhism was founded. I would have gotten it. Revolted as soon as I discovered the BW.
    First :smoke:: I should have built another warrior and waited for the city to grow to size 4. So, I let the city grow while researching Masonry. Masonry was in, London grew, I :whipped: the settler. York was founded on the coast, for the gold mainly. It could share the pigs with London, which wouldn't need that for feeding.
    So, I'm 5 turns away from Monotheism and Judaism. I have ONE warrior as my military. :lol: I'm building a worker at York and slowly Stonehenge at London. I know it isn't that critical, but the GProphet points and the culture will help a little when needed to lightbulb Theology for the Sistine.


    Tomorrow I'll read the spoilers. You have fun!
     

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  4. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    (I'm sure none of this needs 'spoiler' tags! ;))

    Mutineer,

    (1.) Julius Caesar isn't in this game.

    (2.) I am surprised at how few religions that you engineer your cultural victories with. I traditionally like to see four within my empire (not necessarily founded within our empire) by the time I'm looking at looking at Liberalism. With that said - there's several different approaches to tackling Cultural wins, and given that Elizabeth's Philosophical but not Spiritual, I can see the case for less religious spread not being quite such a big deal as say getting a Great Artist farm underway sooner rather than later.

    (3.) It's been mentioned a couple of times, and I agree that we'll benefit from a bit of warmongering. 'When' I guess is up for consideration.

    ... I would still however like to see mindfulness of our ultimate objective. Among a few different tactics (e.g. whipping early Temples), I'd be looking at lightbulbing options (two 'biggies' spring to mind) that will especially help a push towards a Cultural win.
     
  5. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    JC or AC, bloody Romans :) Washington actailly a bit of warmonder himself.
     
  6. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    Given that several people on the roster are Prince-level or 'new to' Monarch level with their single player games, and that it would also seem that only a few of us have had much experience with Cultural victories, coupled with Öjevind's preference for a Monarch game, that handpicking the AI would provide us with a less hassle-free time - I was wary that being parked between Tokugawa and Alexander while trying to win culturally would be counter-productive to the 'educational' experience.

    The leaders I picked do not;
    • Have the Aggressive trait,
    • Have the Industrious trait,
    • Have the Spiritual trait,
    • Begin with Mysticism.
    The choice between the 'Creative' Augustus Caesar versus the slightly more 'trigger happy' Julius Caesar was a bit of a conundrum, but I figured that Augustus' free culture wouldn't impact on us too much unless Rome turned out to be a neighbour.

    I don't think any of the leaders on the map are especially 'easy beats' - personally I'm not that fond of Mao as a rival - but hopefully they will prove to be fair competition that will allow Elizabeth to compete on as 'equal footing' as one could hope for in a Monarch level game in terms of founding religions, building Wonders, and not being the relentless victim of highly conflict-oriented and/or religious zealot AI tribes.
     
  7. mice

    mice Moose

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    So eight saves are in. Three didn't go for a religion.

    I think the voting will come down to what kind of opening you prefer. And Pigswill had good luck with HBR.

    It seems to me that dominating Augustus will give us more production and commerce to play with. To hit him earlier will mean more hammers later for wonders.
     
  8. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    i can't believe how bloodthirsty y'all are!

    well actually i can, 100%. i just know i can't do it and will have to depend on you *giggle*. i never ever ever go to war early because i am just plain awful at it. early of course is like, pre-steel ;). and that is of course why i love spiritual! okay maybe that was a slight exaggeration but not by as much as you'd guess!
     
  9. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Just so I get this straight, I vote 3-2-1 via Pm to cabert?

    I agree that 2 religions is enough. I've played cultural games where I've had 4 religions and spent so long trying to spread it everywhere, get 4 temples in every city and get 4 cathedrals in the big 3 that the AIs are already building SS parts. In my game I would try to found CoL and Philosophy.

    As for Augustus, I think he is not long for this game :)
     
  10. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    So - we're all in?

    Please send your votes by Private Messaging to cabert with a '3-2-1' format ('3' being cast to the game you consider most successful). As advised earlier, no voting for your own game.

    I would encourage continued open discussion about the submissions so far and Cultural Victories generally, although please bear in mind that voting is now underway, and a 500 word essay about why your game is best or someone else's isn't should be avoided.

    cabert will advise of a deadline for voting. If you can't vote by cabert's deadline, one vote will be given to every game except your game.

    I would like to stick to the weekly turnset arrangement if at all possible, so if the votes are all cast early and a 'most successful' entrant determined, we'll have an extended period to play Round 2.

    As always, it's interesting to see the different approaches taken. :) I think that we might have to start playing more as a 'team' as we progress, or we'll end up inhereting games that have fractured strategies.

    (I have never won a Cultural victory with less than four religions - I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but that's been my experience to date. I've won Warlords Cultural games with Louis {Mon}, HC {Mon}, and Alex {Emp} as non-Spirituals but as cabert observed with his games, I usually select Spiritual leaders for my Cultural wins).
     
  11. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well I've looked at all the saves and sent my votes to Cabert! Was originally going to vote 3-2-1 on whose game best suited what I'd already decided was the best approach but ended up giving the 2-1 to two games that stood out as being really good in different ways.

    Was really surprised how little workers there were, 3 in 8 games :eek: and that's including my worker. Actually I think they were also the three non-religion games :lol:.

    Its quite surprising how different some of the games are already.

    And pigswill :p for your hut popping ability.

    London should be legendary and I think the dyes in the south should also be. Rome could always be our third ;) Don't really see a GA farm hanging around (didn't look all that carefully though).
     
  12. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    i will be out of town thursday thru saturday, for my grandmother's funeral (not unexpected, but still sad). i'll send in my vote before i go, but i know you'll all be shocked not to see 500 word essays from me so i figured best to warn you.

    i've won with 3.5. ramsses got a conf missionary in so late that i didn't get it spread around all the way. so it wasn't quite 4 really, but it did help more than 3. i can't remember any where i had only 3 at the very end. i never do get all 4 caths in all 3 big cities. but having more than 2 helps when the missionaries fail, at least for me. maybe the missionaries would fail less with only two so it would even out, but i like the extra temples and monasteries too, not just the caths.

    "I traditionally like to see four within my empire (not necessarily founded within our empire) by the time I'm looking at looking at Liberalism." that's the part that made me chase in this game. i'm just really not confident that ones we don't found will get to us any time soon. my last continents game where i paid big attention to religion was that one where all 7 were founded on the other continent ... i didn't see a single one until the replay, after my demise. so i'm a bit paranoid ;).
     
  13. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I'm sorry. That kind of thing is *always* sad.

    Gamewise, I agree about the importance of having several religions; just think of what it can do for Liz when she goes Free Religion later on! I don't think I really need to tell you that having lots of religions is one of her strengths. Not for nothing is FR her favourite civic.

    Anyway, travel safe!
     
  14. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    KMad: Sorry to hear your news, as you said its sad even when its not a surprise.
     
  15. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Thoughts on my game.

    I did actually think about my strategy :eek: . Not being very experienced on cultural I thought I'd get some religions.Two paths occured to me: meditation, CoL and pacifism or polytheism, monotheism, theology. What swung the balance is that I wanted sistine chapel for cultured specialists. Not being industrious or having marble in BFC I thought best way to get this is by getting Christianity and hopefully dissuading AI from chasing theology.

    The execution was however weak. I should have slotted in agriculture and built a worker in the opening set.
     
  16. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    2 votes already in.
    I figure some of you work and will need one or 2 evenings to open those games. I personnaly didn't but I'm not supposed to vote, so it's alright.

    I suggest a deadline by tomorrow evening european time = tomorrow morning american time = thursday early morning australian time.

    Some random thoughts.
    Mutineer : I can see what you mean with an early religion less developpement, but I think you missed the fact that we have no religion friendly neighbours = it will be slow getting any religion if we don't found them.
    It could be interesting to see how things would turn from your game, but I think you may have a hard time convincing your coplayers :mischief:.

    Kmad : well done grabbing that spot! That's a glorious spot if I ever saw one :). About judaism, I didn't think of chasing it really because at some point you need agri, animal husbandry, BW... so I just thought I wouldn't get it in time. Could be wrong thought, giving me 5 religions to play with.

    About religions :
    the more the better. You certainly don't need to spread all of them everywhere, but think of it this way :
    with 6 cities (only) and 4 religions you can build 6*4 temples allowing 8 cathedrals = 3 for each of your non capital big culture spots + 2 for capital (or any other order you might find better). whereas with 3 religions, you can only build 6 = 2 cathedrals per big city, which is a bit short.
    Of course, if you have 9 cities you can make do with 3 religions easily.
    I managed a culture win with 2 religions and 6 cities, no war at monarch level (philo is good ;), all hail Gandhi), so it's certainly doable.
     
  17. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

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    KMad,

    I'm echoing the other guys' sentiments in that I'm sorry to hear of your loss.

    More generally,

    ... and Thursday mid-morning for New Zealand ... don't want to upset our Trans-Tasman buddy! ;)

    I'll be unable to vote until later in the week, so if I'm the one holding up proceedings, then as advised above, just give every game a vote except mine (so that I don't benefit from not voting). If there are other players who haven't voted by the end of the week, then I'll endeavour to get mine in.

    Seems as though a few people are looking at the Theology slingshot, which will probably require either a Great Prophet -yielding WoW such as Stonehenge or The Oracle, or running some Specialist Priests through Temples. The Parthenon is traditionally a pretty desirable WoW for Culturals, so with possibly a Roman invasion on top of all that, we've got our work cut out for us!
     
  18. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Just one little reflection, which is possibly unnecessary anyway. I suspect that Mao lives in the north and that we are free to expand towards the south as much as we wish once we have blocked off other civs with our superior culture. This (as well as other considerations = Augustus, our close neigbour and, I think, an inevitable enemy at some point) should make us refuse offers of Open Borders until we have done some good safe settling down there ourselves. Though Mao is probably so far away that an OB agreement with him is all right.

    Even so, we should strive for Seafaring so Augustus is contaminated by our religion whether he will or nill and refrains from attacking us until *we* are ready. (Hint: See to it that he doesn't discover any religion himself.) Of course, if he were Montezuma or Alexander he would unfailingly pick up our second religion and start to hate us because we don't observe it...
     
  19. mice

    mice Moose

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    Australian time is OK. We fought the war together eh ... I just read about the Australian light cavalry charge in WWI in Beethseba in Palestine. The last ever cavalry charge. Good old Aussie bravery.

    Back to the game, it seems there are a lot of things to prioritize in cultural victories, and there is a log jam of them in the opening moves.

    Religions , Theology sling to Sistine Chapel, Parthenon, early cottages, Artist farm, other wonders ,shrine .

    All that and we need to develop normally and deal with the neighbors.

    It's why I get so confused with Cultural victories.

    Following the vote and finding the next save, perhaps we could agree on our options and then agree on which one to follow. As Cam said earlier ,I think, our strat could get fragmented if we don't.
     
  20. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    Well, I send my voites. I actially give highers voites for different start then my, simply for good consistant implementation.

    Even if personally believe start is not best, Civ4 is a rich game, god implimentation can make any strat going the long way.
     

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