1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Cultivating a dose of Anglophilia!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Cam_H, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I'm a bit confused by this :confused: and Cam's earlier post. If there is an agreed strategy that everyone has to follow, what will the differences in the saves be? Diplomatic and random events only I think. I thought the idea of these games was to show different strategies. Essentially you could be asking people to play the game in a way they don't think is best or don't feel comfortable with.

    As I said in my spoiler for my turns, I went for the strategy that I would use in this situation realising that very probably no-one would vote for it ;) but it's an example of one way (among many) to get a culture victory.

    As we're not playing fix the trash it shouldn't be too difficult to win regardless of the strategies.

    Just let people play how they want. It may show everyone a few tricks they didn't know about.

    P.S. Never knew you were a Kiwi mice :goodjob:
     
  2. FeedBack

    FeedBack Time for some FeedBack!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2006
    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    Sao Paulo, Brazil
    First things first:
    KMad, sorry to hear about it. Travel safe and return here for us to cheer you up!

    Second things second :crazyeye::
    I'm going to be OOP from Thursday to Sunday, too. But I'm gonna vote tonight if time lets me.

    Most important things last:
    I liked what I read. Besides pigswill hut luck, every other game was fair! :p
    I thought about going to the "normal" opening and the religion opening and decided to go religion just because I never do it. My exploration is painful because I lost my starting warrior to the lions, even when he was on a forested spot. Blame RNGod.
    Of course I haven't looked at any games yet, but I'd like to hear what you think of legendary cities. Or better: what you see and think: "this is going to be a legendary city site". I founded my York on the coast and to get the Gold, as I didn't have any other site explored. There's stone nearby, but not close enough for a un-escorted settler. Timing was taken in consideration too, as I had only 3 turns to found before the end of the turnset :)lol:) and 8 turns before Monotheism was discovered and maybe (cross fingers) Judaism founded. Being a Holy City, unless should I get 2 more religions (likely, but not guaranteed), it would be a perfect candidate for a legendary-to-be...
     
  3. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,715
    I want to have some explanation, as from what I read I do not see why I can not give more then one save 3 points, or 2 or 1?

    I do not undestand rules.
     
  4. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    my 500 words but not "about why your game is best or someone else's isn't" *giggle*

    i'm confused about the strategy discussion before further play thing too. maybe i'll understand it more when you talk about it the first time.

    in the official trash games, we played future rounds "blind"; we forgot anything we knew (maps, resources, etc) that we couldn't see in the save that we picked. are we doing that here too? for example people do/don't know where rome is, do/don't know BW, have/haven't met mao.

    when i woke up this morning my very first thought was "oh, and since i found the religions, they're less likely to convert to it and make politics a mess!" and then realized one of my last thoughts before falling asleep must have been about culture games in civ4 :lol:. of course that reason again shows how much i lean towards the peaceful "let's get along, i'll manipulate them through diplomacy" angle rather than beating them up. i always settle *very* aggressively to get land for myself, and trust diplomacy to smooth close border tension, but i don't take their land except in flips. flipped a city from JC last night in an RB event and it took away all close border tension. what did i do 2 turns later? settle another one to get tension again!

    mutineer: all we really do is vote for three games, 1st 2nd and 3rd favorite. giving 3/2/1 points is confusing, but i guess it makes it easier on the vote collector if there's a tie instead of him changing every "first vote = 3 points" (which would end up exactly the same).

    i'm sure he's in the south. look at mutineer's save. mao probably has the biggest land area to play with of all of us, unless there's a 4th suspect on our continent too. but we might not even know mao exists *giggle*.

    with liz's starting techs, if you're researching religion a worker doesn't have a lot to do at first, so that's logical isn't it? :p. but yeah, no workers isn't necessarily the bestest thing ever in the universe!

    seeing the differences is so much fun, and so much different than normal SGs. i love it.

    "I've played cultural games where I've had 4 religions and spent so long trying to spread it everywhere, get 4 temples in every city and get 4 cathedrals in the big 3 that the AIs are already building SS parts."

    but it adds excitement suddenly seeing SAMs in their cities when you're so far behind on the tech tree that you can't tell how close to rocketry they were!

    i have had games where it turned out that the city i thought would be my 2nd or third legendary didn't turn out to be the most efficient way to get there. so now i don't settle my first great artists in those cities, since things may change. but as far as in an ideal world here's what i think "i gotta have this spot":
    - cottage-able land/land with lots of commerce. coastal with financial isn't terrible but i prefer cottages they're of course more than three and get hammers with US. dye/etc works too but i've been know to do the heretical action of building a cottage over dye (don't tell nobody).
    - my official GA farm has food resources, almost never as many hammers as i want (altho i do make it have some), and 90% of the time ends up one of the big 3 but gets almost all of its culture by bombs/specialists. the bombs get spread out like 1-3-9 or so.
    - satellite GA farms that can make more more food than they need to eat. that's not the same as "can make a lot of food total". my last game i settled a city that looked at first like total junk ... more than half the tiles were desert, plains hills, or peaks. but a combo of flood plains, grassland, and plains to chain irrigation to corn meant that just 5 citzens working on tiles could make 22 food pre-biology/pre state-property (i don't tech that far). population 11 with 5 on tiles = 6 artists specialists all the time without starvation. :) it produced one hammer when i had it in that set-up. i whipped/bought the temples there.

    last edit: i worship health resources. happiness is not an issue after a certain point. health is. part of my "get them to like me and each other" focus is so that i can trade freely for health stuff that i don't own. i often shift city spots/flipping efforts higher on the priority list because they get health resources i don't already have.

    my last few have been HoF "aim for the earliest possible cultural win" which is different in a lot of ways. i avoided non-GA wonders, the prophets i wanted i got through temples, i bend over backwards for peace. i made a conscious decision to speed up the global tech rate a bit by trading so that i could trade to reach my tech goal sooner. if we do that last one here we're nuts. so my perspective is warped because of my recent games.
     
  5. mice

    mice Moose

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    tundra
    It's just to put them in order from best to next best to next best.

    3= best. Game you most want to use

    2= next best , your next choice if you had to play it.

    1= your third choice if you had to play it.
     
  6. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    With regard to Ozbenno's post #61;

    I'm sure that even if we agreed to pursue a general strategy that there would be distict variations between the games - it's one thing that was pretty consistent with the P666 series; 'expect the unexpected'.

    But to some extent I think that you're right, and you've prompted me to reconsider the position.

    I guess it might be of help to outline where I was coming from;

    Some players feel quite comfortable in pursuing a Cultural win by spreading only two religions in an Empire and using Great Artists, Wonders, and the :culture:-slider to get over the line. Others go for a more hybrid if not religious-focussed approach.

    Some will go after Broadway-Eiffel-Rock'n'Roll-Hollywood versus stopping research in the Industrial Era (and even then - do we go after Replaceable Parts and Rifling or not?).

    Some will go on the warpath, while others will go Diplomatic with an effort to work triangle diplomacy with neighbours or even aim to flip border cities.​

    I was thinking that with such a range of ways to go, that agreement on a general approach would help the exercise overall, but with hindsight I'm a little more comfortable to letting the game 'grow organically' and trusting the roster to 'make the call'. With that said, I still think that lack of cohesion will be an issue, but after 'sleeping on it' I am less 'hardline' about it than I was yesterday.
     
  7. mice

    mice Moose

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    tundra
    It seems that there are distinct approaches and that they need to be started early. For example Pigswill's theology sling is heading for an artists based win isnt it? with a lot of food cities. With just cottages ,Sistine isn't so needed is it.

    However, it's good for things to be a bit random and the game becomes more creative.

    I guess 40 turns is just enough to implement one strat or another. Then everyone will see which kind of culture victory they can pursue from that save.

    So .. I agree with Ozbenno. We don't need a consensus.

    The first save we choose will tell us if we have Religions or not.

    After that it's just cottages or artists - is that right? Both strats use wonders a lot I think, and both strats can have war or peace.

    Bring on the randomness.
     
  8. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Actually, as we are financial and philosophical both. We just need to find a GA farm, as with a financial civ, a GA farm won't be as good a legendary candidate as one with tons of cottages. Cottages in legendary cities and artists in GA farm.

    Should be one of the goals of the team to pick out their three legendary city spots and a GA farm as well in the next set, we can then compare them and see which look good. Although, as KMad mentioned, sometimes what you think will be a legendary city is sometimes proved wrong, which is why you should save all the GAs until the end (unless you get one BC, merge in the capital).
     
  9. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    :eek:

    What about Sistine Chapel + Representation (via The Pyramids) + Free Speech + Cathedrals (+ Hermitage)?

    1 A.D. seems very early for holding back your Great Artists for bombs?

    (and I'm increasingly a fan of making your Great Artist farm a Legendary city - but that one we'll keep for another day! ;))
     
  10. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,715
    GA farms tend to make good legendary cities.

    Artist, especially with sistine produce a lot of culture instantly. GP farm may not produce as mach culture as cottaged city after cottage city fully running and at 100% culture, but it might produce the same or more culture totall, because it get to full power allmost instantly.
     
  11. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Well its a case of 14cpt(?) vs a one off 6000 bomb.

    I don't go for Pyramids generally (hammer heavy risk and GP pollution) in culture. Does Sistine work on merged GPs? Does representation? Free Speech and Cathedrals/Hermitage come in too late for it to make it worthwhile. For most of its life that merged artist is earning you just 14cpt.

    Never done the maths, so I'm probably way wrong. :lol:
     
  12. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    me too on pyramids unless i have stone and plenty of forests right away. yes on sistine and rep for settled GPs.
     
  13. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    There you go, already learnt something new from this game :goodjob:
     
  14. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    No.
    It's a case of 14 cpt +3 gpt before multipliers vs a one off 4000 bomb.
    On average, you have a x3 modifier (depending on where you settle the guy and when), so it's like 42 cpt turns + 3 gpt vs 4000.
    How likely are you to have the guy settle for more than 100 turns? that's hard to say, but for super early guys, I settle them.
    They double up as good money makers in holy cities.

    If you bomb, you generally wait until you can bomb yourself into a win.
    If you settle, you settle right away, making a fast cultural push = land grab.
    So my rule of thumb is to settle until lib is in, then keep for bombing (after liberalism, it's too late for an early land grab anyway).
     
  15. Cam_H

    Cam_H Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,047
    Location:
    "Straya"
    Well, we're both learning today ... Culture Mechanics Disassembled is a long but I think worthwhile read. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the methodology used, but until proven otherwise it could provide some pretty useful tactics, such as the 'exploit' on how to set off a Culture Bomb for maximum effect. Maybe we'll need to address that one?
     
  16. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Yeah, mutineer showed us that one recently in another SG (RB29c), very impressive in expanding otherwise set borders. :goodjob:
     
  17. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    cultural victory isn't about borders, it's about culture in cities!

    edit : I have 5 out 8 votes + 1 excused not going to come, meaning I still miss 2. It's pretty close (4 different games could be chosen, depending on the final votes).
     
  18. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    11,426
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    True but a border push can net you resources you wouldn't have had otherwise.
     
  19. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,710
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    France
    And a war you wouldn't have had otherwise.
     
  20. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    you're used to me, always with an exception. sometimes i need a faster land grab than your settling example will give me. a couple of times i've used a very early GA to bomb purely to grab land. not even necessarily in a future legendary (heretic alert!). like on inland seas, where it's guaranteed crowded and the land grab is atrocious, sometimes i judge it worthwhile to officially own the territory so that i don't have to wait around to flip the stupid AI cities they put in the spots i don't want which block the spots i do want.

    yes i am an oddball.

    maybe, maybe not. i'm playing a game right now that i didn't set up, it's an event game that's very odd, aiming for culture win but can't run slider over 20%. i have -3 close borders with peter, and he's pleased. i have -3 with alex and he's friendly. aggressive AI is turned on. i never play aggressive AI and can't believe they're friends with me, but i'm not complaining. and i REALLY pushed it with peter. he settled sheep city on the coast before i could, and had a fish city, and an open spot in between. like i said before, i worship health resources for culture since happy isn't a problem. i got the music GA and i settled the spot in between and bombed it. close borders went from -1 to -3 but the +s i've been working on are increasing and it's all good.

    you guys are so bloodthirsty! there are often ways to avoid wars *giggle*. not always, but sometimes.
     

Share This Page