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[RD] Cultural Appropriation

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by thecrazyscot, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Go back one page and you will find that I didn't support the "white dudes' perspectives on racism are irrelevant" position the first time. White people have to recognize that they too pay a consequence for racism flourishing, even while they enjoy privileges that offset that consequence to varying degree.
     
  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Given the number of words written about this subject out there on the internet it is really inexcusable for you to be posting in this thread at this level of ignorance.

    Did we?

    I didn't say 'finally'. I just said the ball is being moved forward. Which I think it undeniably is.

    I know a bunch of members of the 'previous generation' who are super down with BLM.
     
  3. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    No, I think SJWs will be like Maoists in the 1960's. People were baffled at their clownishness then, people think of them as clowns now.

    People saying that a white guy wearing dreads is a form of oppression are clowns. It's not that it's a small form of oppression, it's that it's not a form of oppression in any way conceivable. Dreads are not the trademarked property of any "race". "Races" don't have any property, cultural or not.

    This has been pointed out many times but the SJWs just ignore it. It's the SJWs who ignore stuff politely pointed out to them and refuse to consider different perspectives.
     
  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Most of the young women I know who were not super excited about the prospect of a Hillary Presidency just wanted some class analysis to go with their feminism :dunno:
     
  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Yeah, you are talking to one. That doesn't mean that I'm not annoyed by the people who don't recognize that things have improved at all prior to their enlightened arrival on the scene.
     
  6. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    Are you suggesting there aren't plenty of people on the Internet saying this?
     
  7. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Did they manage to express that? I know you got it, but in a way that the people who gave them such a comfortable platform to stand on and make that request didn't feel slighted?
     
  8. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    *shrug* I am too, but I don't think being super down with BLM, or even participating in BLM (which I've done a little of, though I can't as much now I'm no longer a student) requires agreeing with everything every member of BLM has ever said.

    The world is going to be consumed by a black hole due to the huge mass of the irony you just created

    I don't know, if there are I don't agree with them.
     
  9. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    I know that, I wasn't addressing that at you. Perhaps I should have quoted to make it clear.
     
  10. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Guess you're not answering that one then. Fair enough.
     
  11. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    There are a lot. There's always a lot of noise when a white celebrity wears a black hairstyle or clothing associated with an ethnic group.
     
  12. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    Well said. I think a big part of CA is that the offender is actually somewhat clueless and/or indifferent to the thing they are appropriating.
     
  13. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    I have read today that Americans want to ban Indians in names and logos of sport clubs. It is the crazy world we live in.
     
  14. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    I think the term "cultural appropriation" itself actually causes problems and can lead to people defending things they wouldn't even normally defend.

    For example, I think most people would agree that a non-Native American running around in a headdress and going "woowoowoo" on some sacred site, or someone walking into a mosque in a fancy dress imam costume (or, dare I say it, a church wearing a comedy bishop costume), would be a complete jerk. This would be disrespectful and insensitive and antagonistic and not something we would normally defend. However, these now fall under the umbrella term of "cultural appropriation" which also includes such things as white people wearing dreadlocks, listening to certain types of music, or daring to cook (or even eat) certain types of food, which (thankfully) most people WOULD defend.

    Now it's all well and good saying there are various degrees of cultural appropriation, and that some examples of it are obviously worse than others, but the fact that the same phrase is used to refer to all of it quite naturally and understandably leads to the association of these things in people's heads and therefore to the notion that they are all just different aspects of the same underlying idea or behaviour. So now people who defend the right of white people to wear dreadlocks or cook a sodding Vietnamese dish end up, either directly or just by assumed implications, defending instances of the "being a jerk" examples because they feel compelled to argue against the notion of "cultural appropriation" as a whole. Then you'll get the people more concerned with stopping the "being a jerk" defending the concept as a whole, or at least having to specify caveats all the time which can get missed.

    I don't think any of this is good.

    To me the first examples I listed already have a pretty decent categorisation - being disrepsectful, being a jerk etc - and we already looked down on these things. To me they belong in the same box as other behaviours that wouldn't be classed as cultural appropriation at all, such as attending a fancy dress party as a muslim suicide bomber, or a nazi soldier, or showing up to a funeral in a clown costume.

    The whole concept, or at least its incredibly broad definition, seems almost tailor-made to create conflict and disagreement. But that's the power of words I guess.
     
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  15. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Take it that way if you want. I probably pay more attention to these topics than you do, and that's what the posting history I've observed tells me. Besides, the anti-SJW movement is pretty mainstream by now, such that catchphrases like #triggered is now a common mainstay of internet lingo. It's not one neat little camp of people anymore.

    Of course, I'm opposed to the anti-SJW wave, much like you or I are opposed to capitalism in general. I'm not sure if you'd think of yourself as someone who subscribes to the notion of "either with us or against us" just because you're opposed to a certain movement that has many supporters who are diverse as a group.

    I'm going to quote this back at you now when you talk about things unrelated to material inequalities.
     
  16. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    I think this is a pretty good post and would like to see a full response to it by anyone who both thinks cultural appropriation is a big problem, and defines cultural appropriation more broadly than "taking things other cultures find sacred and using them as meaningless kitsch, or otherwise disrespecting them".

    [Forum note: if you don't see that I have quoted a post, or that Manfred Belheim has recently posted in this thread, you have him on ignore. Xenforo has a much more aggressive ignore feature than vBulletin. Now you can't see any message that they posted, any threads they are the OP of, or even any quotes of theirs that someone else made. Please don't reply to this by publicly indicating that you have him on ignore, or that you did in the past. PM me with any questions.]
     
  17. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Moaner Lisa

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    Pff. As if anyone would have me on ignore.
     
  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    How is that a good post? What it demonstrates is that Manfred Belheim has never read any serious treatment of cultural appropriation by someone who 'agrees with' it as a concept and thinks it's problematic.

    https://medium.com/@tempest/the-cultural-appropriation-primer-91f1101dae1d#.aa9xwe3ww

    http://jezebel.com/5959698/a-much-needed-primer-on-cultural-appropriation

    Both of these articles address most of the objections that have been brought up in this thread.

    Of course it is, because 'conflict and disagreement' is the means by which progress occurs.

     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Who said that? :confused:
     
  20. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    I'll read those articles once I have time (exam at 7 pm this evening - I really need to get off the internet now).

    A very brief reply about this point specifically, though: I think there are ways to generate conflict and disagreement that are helpful to creating progress, and ways that are not. A lot of the 'SJW' types (along with 'anti-SJW' types who pop up to counter them) argue in ways that lead to unproductive discussion and seem designed to maximize outrage. I think this is resulting in a major backlash against 'PC' or 'SJW' stances, including in liberal circles. On the right, it seems to be fueling right-wing populism and outright white nationalism.

    There are a lot of important points that are made by the 'SJW' side of the debate on cultural issues, but how the arguments are conducted is turning away a lot of people who might be sympathetic if it weren't for the internet outrage culture. And of course, these potentially convincible types are mostly privileged white people. This matters a lot because the bottom line is that, as long as white Westerners are the dominant culture, they have to be communicated with in ways that don't cause them to use their overwhelming power to stop or reverse progress in cultural understanding.
     

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