Cultural Diversity

[Hypereon]

If you find some, let me know Incidentally, without outsider intervention, there probably wouldn't be that much difference - technology is spurred by need, and the greatest need comes as a result of warfare, which seemed to be lacking on any comparable scale in North America.

Considering this, that's why adding different research speed for different cultures wouldn't be historically accurate at all - the people aren't any dumber anywhere in the world (or that is what it's supposed to be ). Instead - research was driven by competition and cooperation between civilizations and made possible by a high level of specialization of a large population. In other words - a small population just couldn't consider organized researching if there was just enough people to gather the food. I think this is done quite well by Firaxis with their 'specialists' that small cities can't really support.

According to The Human Web. A Bird's-Eye View of World History (William McNeill and J. R. McNeill), if I correctly remember, the main reason why Eurasia developed way faster than the Americas and Asia is the difference in cooperation and connections between peoples. Contrary to Eurasia, which is a long continent on West-East axis, Africa and the Americas' length is in North-South axis. Climate and terrain changes on this axis make traveling between far different latitudes very slow and hard, if not impossible. Thus, the civilizations in Africa and the Americas were almost completely isolated from each other, so there were little competition and contacts between peoples. Contrary, climate east-westwise does not vary hardly at all. So, links between Eastern and Western cultures from the ancient times gave Eurasia quite a head start in development.

To not completely drive this off topic, in this mod, would there be a reason to implement research boost from contacts/trade between different culture groups and raise the significance of cooperation in research? Giving some culture groups penalties to research in the future (if it's going to happen) just doesn't feel right... At least the speed of development should be driven harder by circumstances, not just from building different science buildings or from penalties for culture groups.

The optimal result from this kind of a mod for me would be seeing technology level in certain regions much more unified. Like this, we could get a certain historical situation where Continent/Region A is just starting colonizing in the Renaissance era, meanwhile Continent B hasn't still even got to the Medieval and is much inferior militarily to their fellow Continent A. It's just distracting to see some Renaissance civs in between of a couple of Modern civs, like they hadn't heard of the technologies of their neighbors at all!

 

[JFD]

Considering this, that's why adding different research speed for different cultures wouldn't be historically accurate at all - the people aren't any dumber anywhere in the world (or that is what it's supposed to be ).

This is more of an attempt to put a break on the game-play side of things - technology isn't linear, nor is it so transparent, nor is it conceptually the means to any victory other than domination, historically. All civs progress at relatively the same rate because this is a game with a particular end in mind; i.e. the end. This mod is about reflecting historical disparities - not how those disparities came about in and of themselves. I'm looking and presenting a quick fix to the issue - not enough interest or time or sensitivity or skill compels me to do as you're asking, though it would certainly be more interesting and accurate. But such an endeavour would require re-structuring how exploration and discovery works, being largely in conflict with the inevitable game-y nature of things - you wouldn't want to benefit other players with a science boost by letting them discover you, yet exploration is such a fundamental part of the game, after all.

But fear not - I may yet not bother with those superfluous features.

 

[Leugi]

Added an Aesthetic Version without Music at Leugi's request to the OP

Yay!

EDIT:

About tech disparities... Although it's an interesting concept it's also very hard to figure out correctly I think. There were different discoveries in both sides, and a different value/usefulness of such discoveries (Mayans had wheels, they just couldn't use it for transport, using them for toys instead for example)... The issue is that such a difference seems like a tech disparity from a lineal perspective (and, to be blunt, the lineal part of it is specially warfare, which was indeed superior from the colonizers), but tech in reality isn't lineal...

When you see it that way, it is clear that warfare is an issue in the America's... not because war wasn't important (it was seriously important anyway), but war was also part of the year-around rituals... The different ecological circumstances of the Americas made it hard to be warring all the time; as you'd run out of resources quite fastly... so battles were usually only fought on specific times (almost ritualized like that, following the crops calendar and such things)... However, they also had a lot of agricultural, medical andastronomical discoveries, that even helped the Old World, as they had a lot of different plants which they domesticated in odd ways... there's also the ball game and other things... So one could say the Americas are far more ritualistic (because of geographical conditions too), and so their tech differences are led by that.

A good (but way harder) way to represent this would be to have alternate tech-trees... and let other culture group's techs be traded/discovered through trade routes... Of course, that would require a lot more of work, so it's your call

 

[Sun Ce of Wu]

Dear JFD, this mod is amazing, and address one of the things that bugged me most when playing CIV5. Since your mod is (almost ?) complete in separating the civs and I don't have many time to spend on my Soundtrack project, if you need more songs you could use the ones found in my three mods. I have also some Oriental extra songs and some "Mandala" that I never used that I may upload if you need them.
Link to the project

 

[Reedstilt]

I have to agree with Hypereon and Leugi on the tech disparity issue. As I mentioned to Leugi earlier today, I'm a big fan of the aesthetics side of this mod, but I'm concerned about the mechanics side enforcing all manner of stereotypes across the board (luckily, at least, the I'll be able to get the Aesthetics independently of the Mechanics). Admittedly, I'm not well versed in all you intended to do mechanically, so I've been holding my tongue on that until now. A light reshuffling of the Tech tree and general buildings / units, I could find tolerable. Letting Oceanic Civs discover Navigation in the Classical or High American Civs build Public Schools in the Renaissance. But a flat boost or penalty to Science would be undesirable for me.

But in the end, as others have said, it's your call. I'll enjoy the Aesthetics and be happy regardless.

Contrary to Eurasia, which is a long continent on West-East axis, Africa and the Americas' length is in North-South axis. Climate and terrain changes on this axis make traveling between far different latitudes very slow and hard, if not impossible.

I haven't read The Human Web, but Jared Diamond popularized this idea in Guns, Germs, and Steel too, and it always struck me as a rather post hoc argument. For one, it would argue that people inhabiting what is now the Continental US would have been better off, technologically, if Canada and Mexico didn't exist (thus making a primarily east-west continent), and it rather arbitrarily separates Africa from Eurasia to make a primarily east-west continent rather than a primarily northeast-southwest supercontinent. It also ignores that there were very extensive north-south and east-west trade routes in the Americas before Columbus (I happen to live along one that ran from the Arctic to the Gulf Coast, for example). If someone were particularly diligent, they could get an item to travel from Haida Gwaii off the coast of British Columbia to Cuzco, a distance roughly equivalent of a trip from Beijing to Madrid. The trade links were all in place, but it doesn't seem anyone was traveling the full length of them with any regularity that would show up in the archaeological record.

 

[LastSword]

Nobody has mentioned horses. Power is everything. Maybe Caravans should cost horses before industrial era.

Starting techs/policies has some gameplay drawback (mainly, because 4 options is very small. Pottery is "stronger" tech than others and is available instantly for AI anyway on higher techs; Mayan with archery (example) wouldn't be nice as well). I am not really sure about 'mechanical' aspect without turning game into the scenario/history simulator. However, you can always connect Great W/A/M to certain culture groups.

 

[TPangolin]

Or just have the tech levels increased by 10% in subsequent golden eras.

 

[JFD]

Yay!

EDIT:

About tech disparities... Although it's an interesting concept it's also very hard to figure out correctly I think. There were different discoveries in both sides, and a different value/usefulness of such discoveries (Mayans had wheels, they just couldn't use it for transport, using them for toys instead for example)... The issue is that such a difference seems like a tech disparity from a lineal perspective (and, to be blunt, the lineal part of it is specially warfare, which was indeed superior from the colonizers), but tech in reality isn't lineal...

I think you're omitting the fact that this game considers technological progress in exactly this way - as linear and heavily driven by warfare. A historical counter to these technological disparities is not very convincing because of this (and would have to go hand-in-hand with a reworking of the tech tree in the way that you suggest, but that's not going to happen from me). With that in mind, the simple system that I intended fits well within the game's design; although, perhaps to be more accurate, it would benefit from being restricted to disparities amongst only military techs - but that presents its own complications. However, what convinces me to forgo this feature is a lack of a way to illustrate these disparities to the player before game load, and the scenario which Hypereon outlined as allowing for asymmetrical distribution of these disparities. Hence, they are unlikely to see a return.

When you see it that way, it is clear that warfare is an issue in the America's... not because war wasn't important (it was seriously important anyway), but war was also part of the year-around rituals... The different ecological circumstances of the Americas made it hard to be warring all the time; as you'd run out of resources quite fastly... so battles were usually only fought on specific times (almost ritualized like that, following the crops calendar and such things)... However, they also had a lot of agricultural, medical andastronomical discoveries, that even helped the Old World, as they had a lot of different plants which they domesticated in odd ways... there's also the ball game and other things... So one could say the Americas are far more ritualistic (because of geographical conditions too), and so their tech differences are led by that.

A good (but way harder) way to represent this would be to have alternate tech-trees... and let other culture group's techs be traded/discovered through trade routes... Of course, that would require a lot more of work, so it's your call

War is always important, but the conditions of Native American culture didn't allow for a constant state of competition between tribes - one reason, as you say, is strictly environmental.

Dear JFD, this mod is amazing, and address one of the things that bugged me most when playing CIV5. Since your mod is (almost ?) complete in separating the civs and I don't have many time to spend on my Soundtrack project, if you need more songs you could use the ones found in my three mods. I have also some Oriental extra songs and some "Mandala" that I never used that I may upload if you need them.
Link to the project

Thanks! I'll take a look through these later I think I'll use some of the Mesopotamian tracks, seeing as I only have 13 currently. Good excuse to insert a unique Oceanic soundtrack that I'd found, too. I think Oriental and Mandala have plenty though - but I'd still be interested in what you have for Mandala, in case there are better quality/more interesting/really captivating tracks you've found.

Starting techs/policies has some gameplay drawback (mainly, because 4 options is very small. Pottery is "stronger" tech than others and is available instantly for AI anyway on higher techs; Mayan with archery (example) wouldn't be nice as well). I am not really sure about 'mechanical' aspect without turning game into the scenario/history simulator. However, you can always connect Great W/A/M to certain culture groups.

Agreed - I found Pottery too much the default technology for many groups, and it is, indeed, the superior tech.

 

[janboruta]

Agreed - I found Pottery too much the default technology for many groups, and it is, indeed, the superior tech.

The Huns start with Animal Husbandry, which is a tier two tech. Perhaps some groups could start with some later techs? (Mesopotamic - Masonry for example). If all the groups grabbed similarly powerful techs, the unfair advantages could be mitigated, at least to a degree.

 

[JFD]

Hopefully this won't be a problem anymore

 

[JFD]

Mechanical Version added to the OP; includes unique events and unique starting bonuses for all 17 groups.

I'm looking to update the Aesthetic pack soon-ish, so if anyone has any final suggestions then please let me know soon - the pack is now at 1.5 GB, and I absolutely do not wish to have to re-upload that again unless under pressing circumstances (like the creation of a new group). Currently, the Oceanic soundtrack could use some bolstering, if anyone has any suggestions for music.

The new update will include exclusive splash screens and soundtrack for Japan (thanks to Sun Ce of Wu), an extended Mesopotamian soundtrack (again, thanks to Sun Ce of Wu), a few extra Oriental themes to compensate the loss of some Japanese tracks (once more, thanks to Sun Ce of Wu ) and the Oceanic soundtrack (which was previously omitted). As well as some minor bugfixes.

 

[Sun Ce of Wu]

Mechanical Version added to the OP; includes unique events and unique starting bonuses for all 17 groups.

I'm looking to update the Aesthetic pack soon-ish, so if anyone has any final suggestions then please let me know soon - the pack is now at 1.5 GB, and I absolutely do not wish to have to re-upload that again unless under pressing circumstances (like the creation of a new group). Currently, the Oceanic soundtrack could use some bolstering, if anyone has any suggestions for music.

The new update will include exclusive splash screens and soundtrack for Japan (thanks to Sun Ce of Wu), an extended Mesopotamian soundtrack (again, thanks to Sun Ce of Wu), a few extra Oriental themes to compensate the loss of some Japanese tracks (once more, thanks to Sun Ce of Wu ) and the Oceanic soundtrack (which was previously omitted). As well as some minor bugfixes.

I'm glad that you are able to use my tracks. Here is the pack with the unused songs in my project. There are 8 Mesopotamian, 1 Indian, 10 Oriental, 14 South-East Asian tracks.

 

[DonStamos]

When this gets updated in the future when new custom Civs come out, will we just be downloading/replacing a couple files rather than the whole pack?

 

[sukritact]

When this gets updated in the future when new custom Civs come out, will we just be downloading/replacing a couple files rather than the whole pack?

I'm guessing it'd be replacing the core files that both the Aesthetic and Mechanical versions rely on.

 

[JFD]

I'm glad that you are able to use my tracks. Here is the pack with the unused songs in my project. There are 8 Mesopotamian, 1 Indian, 10 Oriental, 14 South-East Asian tracks.

Great thanks

When this gets updated in the future when new custom Civs come out, will we just be downloading/replacing a couple files rather than the whole pack?

Yeah, when I update for more support, I'll just provide the file which you need to copy over - but I think I'll be merging the Core and the Mechanic versions (allowing you to disable the starting bonuses), as there's really very little to the Mechanic version.

 

[Pouakai]

Alternatively, I wonder if compatibility could be included within the mods themselves as opposed to within this, to save JFD from updating each time a new civ is released? Don't know if that would work or not though, since I haven't had a chance to look over the files properly yet

 

[JFD]

Will change the system so that that is possible - but modders need to alert me when/if they include support, so that I can remove support from the original mod. Otherwise, things duplicate.

 

[Chrisbburn]

So if you want both the mechanics and the art can you use both?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[JFD]

The mechanics will be included in the core (required) mod; the Aesthetic addon which adds the soundtrack and splash screens are optional. The final mod is in the process of being updated - will take about 3 hours

 

[Zantonius Hamm]

I feel this could need some more of the original concept, although that could just be represented through (a) unique decision(s). The reason I used to be eager for this mod was because it made the different groups so... different. Now that's not the case. I do like unique events, starting bonuses and maybe decisions, but I feel the mod misses the original idea. Maybe it's because I liked that the original mod had large bonuses and large penalties. I would've liked the groups to have optional, unique 'traits', possibly also buildings and units. Although I might be the only person who wants that...