Cultural Victory - 1838 - Emperor - France

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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Initially I thought I was going to get it MUCH sooner, but I screwed up. I could easily do this on Immortal or Deity as well, which I will try next time. This was done on Standard game speed just to see if the strategy works. This is a lot harder to do than it looks, as most of the great cultural buildings happen much much later. The Cristo Rendentor is absolutely necessary. I didn't get the Oracle, or the other wonder that grants a free policy, which greatly slowed me down.
 

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Makaz

Warlord
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Feb 25, 2010
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219
Wow.

A cultural victory with so many cities ?

With only 7 cities in emperor / standard I won a cultural victory in 2030 and while getting the opera house, cristo redemptor and all. If I remember well, at the end I would have to reach 7500 culture per policy and was doing 690 culture per turn.

I don't get with twice as many cities as me how you got your last policy with only 4K culture and I had all civics that reduce it too.

Or is it that puppetted cities do not increase by 30% the policy cap ?
If so I struggled for nothing as I was refraining to eat my concurrents and ended up clicking a very boring 300 next turn with nothing happenning but golden ages triggered by 90 happinesss.
 

Makaz

Warlord
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
219
Oh and I decided to go for culture after building the 7 cities, not from start up, otherwise I would probably have focussed on 2 or 3 cities.

M
 

Roxlimn

Deity
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Feb 11, 2005
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3,526
Makaz:

Look closer. Nearly all his cities were puppets. Puppets don't add to the cultural policy cost. It's interesting that this could actually work.
 

Makaz

Warlord
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Feb 25, 2010
Messages
219
Noooooes - I really had the most boring game ever thinking that puppets would add to the policy cap as well... I m such an idiot :/
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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There's more to it than just France/Puppets abuse. There's 1-2 strategies that would cause a huge facepalm. After I win it on Immortal with a more efficient strategy, we'll see how fast this can go.
 

erragal

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 17, 2010
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12
There's more to it than just France/Puppets abuse. There's 1-2 strategies that would cause a huge facepalm. After I win it on Immortal with a more efficient strategy, we'll see how fast this can go.

Are you referring to the fact that if you wait to unlock Freedom and immediately go after the reduced policy cost for your first few policies it will reduce the cost of all future policies that you've saved up for? This definitely speeds up a cultural victory.
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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Nope, there's 1 absolutely key thing that you need to do. It's linked to high number of puppets.
 

tibbles

Warlord
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
246
Now I'm curious. If it's not just puppets for culture buildings, I'd guess it has to be gold related?

I got my first cultural win Sat on King with Askia in 1890. Nothing too wild. Settled 3 (with a wonder in each) and puppeted 3 very nice cities. Think I went for the +20% wonder policy, saved for freedom that I semibeelined with acoustics, a few from patronage, few piety, then saved up to buy like 8 policies at once once I had the Cristo Redentor. I purposely skipped Stoenhenge, could've gotten it, but wanted to see how fast I could go if I were beaten to it. Did build the Oracle. I think my culture at end game was only a moderate +560/turn, but I'd been running with 3-4 allied cultural city states all game, so it added up.
 

tibbles

Warlord
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Nov 28, 2006
Messages
246
As it is, I'm hoping your forthcoming strat will greatly reduce the time cultural takes. Or at least remove the near requirement for city states. I could've had a diplo win at least 30 turns faster than my culture win without any change in strat. There's little point to a victory condition if fulfilling it takes like 90% the same requirements as another method, but is slower.
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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Cultural city states help out a lot with the victory condition. I think 1/4 of my culture was coming from them, 1/4 from my capitol, and 1/2 from the rest of my empire.

The way city states are set up you can see how a smaller civ favours Cultural city states, and a large civ would favour Maritime city states. Unfortunately puppets break that dynamic entirely, making both Cultural and Maritime city states both very very worthwhile to a big civ.
 

alpaca

King of Ungulates
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Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
Nope, there's 1 absolutely key thing that you need to do. It's linked to high number of puppets.

Annex and raze them before choosing SPs? But I guess you could do that if you annex. Looks nice so far, the only time I tried a cultural win yet was for Bollywood and it took me into the 2000s (on Emperor, standard pangaea).
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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I didn't annex, raze, or sell a single city. I'm completely away from that strategy since puppets don't add to social policy costs.

Lemme just say this: The maintenance costs in my puppets were actually really efficient for what they brought in, and it has nothing to do with my tile improvements.
 

Roxlimn

Deity
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Feb 11, 2005
Messages
3,526
Is it linked to the loophole that allows you to control what your puppets are making? If it's cheaty, I'm not really interested in pursuing it.
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
Messages
919
Nope, no loopholes, but you're close. Here it is:

I didn't research Bronze Working until after the Industrial era. Currency also waited a LONG LONG time. The only buildings my puppets built for the first half of the game were cultural, and happiness related.
 

Roxlimn

Deity
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That sounds a bit cheaty to me. The entire puppet dynamic doesn't strike me a being all that well thought out, especially because people are devising all manner of ways to control the production, when the core concept of the puppet state is that you shouldn't be able to control it.

To be honest, it seems kinda broken right now.
 

Zechnophobe

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Nope, no loopholes, but you're close. Here it is:

I didn't research Bronze Working until after the Industrial era. Currency also waited a LONG LONG time. The only buildings my puppets built for the first half of the game were cultural, and happiness related.

Reading this thread, I was pretty sure that's what you must have meant. Basically puppets will build whatever they feel like... so just don't research the tech that makes them build useless things.
 

Celevin

King
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Jul 21, 2010
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919
Yep, I had no barracks/military academies.

It's not cheaty. What's cheaty is having to get around a system where you can't control your cities at all. Puppets are the lamest part of Civ5, and also the strongest.

Puppets make you not want to research certain techs. Puppets make the Piety tree worthless (which I mistakenly grabbed). Puppets go away from the entire goal of the game to make it fun, accessible, and have you in control. They are the new "random event", but 10x worse. I don't mind gaming puppets, because they have to be.

If your puppet decides to build a barracks instead of a monument, they just knocked your civilization down a peg. It's random, and it's lame.
 

Zechnophobe

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That sounds a bit cheaty to me. The entire puppet dynamic doesn't strike me a being all that well thought out, especially because people are devising all manner of ways to control the production, when the core concept of the puppet state is that you shouldn't be able to control it.

To be honest, it seems kinda broken right now.

A bit cheaty? I don't see it any more cheaty then bee-lining a tech, or worse yet, slingshotting one.

I do agree that puppets don't seem well thought out. I think the real problem is that they don't really cost you ANYthing. The difference in production of empire without puppet vs empire with is ultimately always in favor of the empire with.

There isn't war weariness or even 'puppet unhappiness' to deal with.
 

tibbles

Warlord
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
246
Hmm, while not having the tech for pointless military buildings would save maintenance, how does that help you win cultural much faster? Maybe it's just cause I inherently usually delay the lower tech tree already, but my puppets always seem cash positive for a loooong time. More cash positive would be even better, but my limit on taking them is always lack of military advantage or interest, not gold.
 
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