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[Vanilla] Cultural Victory Assessment

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by DCIII, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. DCIII

    DCIII Chieftain

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    So I understand the cultural victory mechanics generally speaking, how to generate tourism and how the modifiers work with goverment/religion/etc. I've seen some content around the exact formulas that go into everything - I'm still having a hard time being able to anticipate how quickly I'm going to gain tourists. I understand that this is not a simple question because lifetime tourism matters as well as a variety of other things but, just given a set of variables, has anyone been able to just kind of have a sense of how quickly you'll gain tourists (roughly) and how much you need to increase your tourism output? I ask because I don't seem to be able to make the progress that I'd think I would make.

    For example, heads up in a game against one other civ - if someone has 23/175 tourists needed, are producing 720 tourism per turn, has a little over 21,000K lifetime tourism, is generating culture in the 280s (vs. opponent 118) has a +25% modifier due to trade routes but a -18% modifier due to gov'ts and -50% on religious tourism (of which there isn't much).

    Is anyone able to get a sense of roughly how quickly tourism should rise from here (even if not exact) or are there more variables needed and, if so, what?
     
  2. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    There's a mod (by @Infixo) for this. Telling you how many turns you need to gain another tourist from each civ. So with this you will have a rough estimate. And then you can use Rock Band to accelerate it a bit. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2139486665

    Or, in case you didn't, you should know every 200 * n tourism against a civ gains you a tourist, where n is the number of original civs. So on standard map it's 1600. Heads up game then it's 400. You are probably gaining 2 tourist per turn. So you can probably win within (175 - 23) / 3 ≈ 51 turns (you are converting 2 and your opponent gain 1, so you reduce the threshold by 1 each turn.)
     
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  3. DCIII

    DCIII Chieftain

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    Thanks so much!
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    As a really rough guide. If the culture leader is generating 100CPT you need at least 200 tourists in your top bar to keep advancing. It is all about that culture leader.
     
  5. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Actually I've been thinking, can there be cases where helping the one with 2nd highest tourism generate more (tourism) make culture victory faster? Since others can also convert domestic tourists of the culture leader.
     
  6. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Very good rule of thumb!
    In fact, if you have no tourism modifier (open borders, trade routes, etc.) with any other player/AI, 200 tourism very exactly let's you keep up with a culture leader generating 100CPT. However, you wouldn't gain any ground, just move at the same pace and keep the gap.

    Example 1
    200 tourism, no modifier, 100CPT culture leader, standard size(8 players, 7 opponents)
    Every 8 turns, you accrue 1600 tourism against all 7 opponents. You gain 7 VT, all opponents lose 1 DT.
    Meanwhile, the culture leader generated 800 culture thus gaining 8 DT, but looses 1 DT at the 8th turn when you accrue 1600 tourism against him.
    Final: the target threshold has increases by 7 DT, but you also gained 7 VT.

    Example 2
    200 tourism, no modifier, 100CPT culture leader, duel(2 players, 1 opponents)
    Every 2 turns, you accrue 400 tourism against your opponent. You gain 1 VT, your opponent loses 1 DT.
    Meanwhile, the culture leader generated 200 culture thus gaining 2 DT, but looses 1 DT at the 2nd turn when you accrue 400 tourism against him.
    Final: the target threshold has increases by 1 DT, but you also gained 1 VT.

    By helping the 2nd tourism leader, I suppose you mean gifting/selling great works/relics or even cities with unique improvements generating tourism if that leader has Flight.
    The problem with that strategy is that any tourism-generating asset that is gifted reduces your own ability to generate VT against all other opponents.
    If you generate 400 tourism and you gift 200 tourism, 400 tourism is still generated in total against the culture leader only by 2 players this time.
    The only time it can make a difference is if the tourism %-age modifiers of the 2nd player are better against the culture leader than yours.
    I think it would only make sense in the case of religious tourism in some extreme cases.
    Let's say everyone has reached The Enlightenment (-50%) and has a different religion than yours (-50%), your religious tourism is now generating 0 (I never actually verified if the two modifiers are additive or multiplicative).
    In that case, if you gift that religious tourism to a player that has better modifiers (Cristo Redentor, same religion), it could accrue against the culture leader and help you without downside since that tourism is doing nothing for you anyway.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    well, the second leader is reducing your domestic, not your foreign while you want the leaders domestic to reduce. I wish I had never got rid of my guide so completely in a childish tantrum. It had a passage that reduced it down to a statement something like... any other civs attempts to win a CV do not effect your attempts beyond increasing their own culture. With @hhhhhh point, it is an exception to this apart from using rock bands. Rock bands so efficiently reduce domestic that your second opponent often becomes your first (slot that into your calculation)
    Additive... 0. They are assessed at the same stage which is after your tourism bar so theoretically you can be giving out less tourism than what shows in your bar. Of course you would be insane to not have open borders and tradevroutes with everyone by this stage. Naturally the modifier only effects holy stuff like a holy site.
    Cristo may be second to Eiffel but not by much and not with reliquaries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  8. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    I was talking in terms of opportunity cost (differential analysis): if you gift 200 tourism to an AI, you lose the ability to generate another 1VT against all 7 opponents every 8 turns from this gifted tourism (and 1DT reduction from the culture leader) with no modifiers.
    Even if you are getting no modifier against the culture leader and the second leader is getting 100% modifier versus the leader, you are getting: 2DT reduction from the culture leader by the second leader, but you are losing 7VT and 1DT reduction for a net of -6!
    You thus need an even stronger modifier difference to make this strategy worthwhile.

    Ok, so in the case of religious tourism only, if you are getting the following modifiers: the Enlightenment (-50%) and other religion (-50%), a relic of 24 tourism with Reliquaries will output 0 tourism, right?
    But, what if you also have a trade route (+25%), will the relic output 6 or 0 tourism? Are the two types of modifiers (religious and non religious), also additive (or multiplicative)?
    I also assume that in this case 24 tourism is considered the "base tourism", unlike St. Basil Cathedral which grants a 100% bonus to religious tourism, but only adds the base 8 base tourism to each relic?
    I think this may have been explained in your former guide, but I don't remember it exactly.

    Do you mean I should try to model this in my rock band simulations? :crazyeye:
    Haha, I know you probably didn't have this in mind when you made that comment, but this adds another level of complexity to making a "time to victory model" which is ultimately my goal.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    They are all applied at the same time and are all additive. However I do remember religious being worked out first in order I believe... but would have to double check.
    Sure, but giving away tourism you could use would be crrrazy
    ... only jokingly... English humour, apologies.
     
  10. DanQuayle

    DanQuayle Prince

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    Actually, there are multiplicative. Maybe, they changed it in the latest version of the game and/or the corporation game mode, but I made the calculations for my latest 6otM game and they were multiplicative

    Here is the formula I came up with:
    Effective_modifier = (1+Diff_Rel%)*(1+Enligh%)*(1+Gov%+Trade%+OB%+Monopoly%)
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It has not changed, it’s just that I clearly did not under stand the meaning.
    If OB and trade were both 25% I thought
    Additive was 100 + (25%+25%)
    Multiplicative was ((100+25%)+25%)
    My very bad, never listened much at school.
     

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