Cultural Victory Challenge #4 Pre-Game Thread: Pericles

[ratrangerm]

In the next of my series of games in which the goal is to obtain a Cultural victory, I am going to play as Pericles, one of the new leaders in BTS. I figured it would be good to first talk about the possible path to achieving a Cultural victory.

With Pericles, you have the combination that Frederick had in Vanilla CIV... Philosophical and Creative. The former trait, obviously, is quite powerful for a Cultural victory, allowing you to generate as many Great Artists as possible. The latter one is more powerful for the cheap culture-generating buildings available, while the +2 culture per city is really just gravy.

And in Pericles' case, as one of the leaders of Greece, he gets his unique building, the Odeon, at a discounted build rate. The Odeon vastly improves on the Colosseum, allowing not only for additional culture per turn, but also to assign Artists. By combining Odeons with cheap Theatres, the GP Farms can run four Artists without having to adopt Caste System, and the main GP Farm can add Globe Theatre for three more.

On top of that, cheap Libraries means it's a good idea to get those built as early as possible in the three Cottage cities, as well as the main GP Farm (in which National Epic would be located).

There is also the UU to consider, the Phalanx. Although a peaceful strategy is ideal for Cultural wins, the Phalanx can come into play if it's determined an opponent must be rushed early.

The tech path is one that will likely be slightly different from previous Cultural victory challenges... usually it was best to head to Code of Laws early to get Caste System as quickly as possible. But with the Odeon coming into play, Construction takes a higher priority, and then a beeline to Drama is ideal. That allows us to get Odeons and Theatres up and running and get multiple Artists in place as soon as possible.

Also, a thought I had was prioritizing Philosophy early to get Pacifism into place. Founding Taoism should be considered a bonus if I get to it. And although religions will need to be spread, I'm thinking it's best not to pursue an early religion, and instead get one such as Taoism if the opportunity arises.

Another thought I had was grabbing Pyramids in one of three Culture cities (which, in this game, I'd like to make my three Cottage cities and let the GP Farm concentrating more on generating Artists) and letting the Philosophical trait build points toward a Great Engineer, thus allowing me to get Great Artists generating wonders rush built. If the opportunity presents itself, adding Hanging Gardens to the mix might work.

And then comes the matter of what to do with Great Artists I get... I've read the various threads about Cultural victories and there's much debate between settling those GAs or using them for culture bombs, and in the latter case, when to do so.

So the questions I ask of everyone are these:

1. Forget about Caste System and just get Odeons and Theaters built, or should I still make it a point to get to CoL early?
2. Settle for just letting religions spread to me (with the possible exception of founding Taoism by getting Philosophy early) or try to found a religion early?
3. Shall I try for Pyramids and get Great Engineers generated?
4. What exactly should be done with the Great Artists I get, and at what point should a culture bomb take place, if all GAs should be used for that purpose?

 

[Refar]

Nothing wrong with Philosophy - Liberalism Tech + Religion, but Pacifism you could get from Shwedagon Paya - Aestetics is on the Drama path anyway

 

[Kanidyen]

Beeline Mysticism, then Polytheism. It doesn't matter if you don't get Hinduism. Pick up a basic worker tech (Mining/Agriculture, I forget what Pericles starts with), and then Priesthood > Writing > CoL > Alphabete. You may want to divert to Monotheism after Polytheism. If an aggressive AI is right next door, you may be forced to go Bronze Working and axe rushing early. Trade out Alphabete, but hang on to CoL. Be sure to get Sailing since you start with Fishing. Build at least one Library somewhere and generate a quick Scientist. As soon as he comes in, bulb in Philosophy. You need to avoid Metal Casting/Machinery for this to work.

As for going for the Engineer, let's see what the starting conditions bring. Speaking of starting conditions, what skill level/size map/speed are you planning?

Save GAs for the last turn when everything will flip to Legendary at once.

 

[ratrangerm]

Speaking of starting conditions, what skill level/size map/speed are you planning?

I'll be doing this at Prince level. I usually play at Epic speed, but I will switch to Normal speed if there's enough interest/requests. Of course, I'll then have to switch to playing the game for Normal speed, as I've been used to Epic for some time.

I usually go with Hemispheres as the map, but Big and Small is one I may try here. Seems the latter map type tends to give you plenty of coastal starts, which would be good for Pericles/Greece since they start with Fishing.

 

[Snapman]

If you can get marble early on, or have plenty of trees to chop, I'd consider building Oracle to slingshot CoL.

I tend to find with big/small maps, that there are loads of seafood resources, and tend to favour an SE. If you've not got many river tiles, which I like to use for cottaging, CoL may be worthwhile for Caste System for specialists to help with the research and economy. Of course, it's all dependant on your starting position.

I also like the idea of Pyramids, not just because of the Great Engineers, but because of Representation for the extra beakers.

 

[hiddie]

If you can get marble early on, or have plenty of trees to chop, I'd consider building Oracle to slingshot CoL.

I tend to find with big/small maps, that there are loads of seafood resources, and tend to favour an SE. If you've not got many river tiles, which I like to use for cottaging, CoL may be worthwhile for Caste System for specialists to help with the research and economy. Of course, it's all dependant on your starting position.

I also like the idea of Pyramids, not just because of the Great Engineers, but because of Representation for the extra beakers.

If you're gonna go for the oracle, go for metal casting, only pottery is needed that you probably want to get early in the game. If you want a religion you can go Judaism (if you have masonry early for your stone/marble), or if the oracle is your only wonder, a Great Prophet will show up pretty soon, just take Meditation, Poly, Mono and he can take you to Theology real early.
Other options are if you have lots of winery's -> divine right or go for the liberalism race and go Taoist (also pacifism is good). But the last 2 are a bit late, i would recommend Judaism or Theo if you go for the oracle (and take metal casting)

I'm saying this because with pericles as your cultural victor you don't have to have casts system.

Also if you have Phalanx, you might want to consider taking an AI out early. If he has a religion, just take his holy city and capital and raze everything else, that way, if you convert to the religion you just captured the holy city of, you will be the leader of that religion (with a star next to the sign next to your name) and you can build a special building there with a great proph.

What I tend to do is get lots of Great Prophet points and when you get Music, Drama etc, go for artists fully.

 

[Kanidyen]

I'll be doing this at Prince level. I usually play at Epic speed, but I will switch to Normal speed if there's enough interest/requests.

I ask just out of curiosity, in addition to the differences you experience in tech trading depeding on the skill level. I'd say just play at Epic since you'd be most comfortable there. The map makes little difference, and again, the skill/speed is of no consequence to me.

Also, the skill level changes how the AI develops and brings in wonders, and we have a proposed gambit that requires some attention:

Another thought I had was grabbing Pyramids in one of three Culture cities (which, in this game, I'd like to make my three Cottage cities and let the GP Farm concentrating more on generating Artists) and letting the Philosophical trait build points toward a Great Engineer, thus allowing me to get Great Artists generating wonders rush built. If the opportunity presents itself, adding Hanging Gardens to the mix might work.

Getting the engineer isn't an issue. On Prince, getting the Pyramids isn't a problem, either. However, fitting that in with your overall plan can be. For example, say you chop in a quick religious wonder in your capital while your second city is still building the Pyramids. The prophet spawns, and now the GP counter for the engineer takes longer to come in. In the mean time, your GP farm is off with a fish/clam/grain start, and you have two artists and climbing off and running. The GAs start spawning; now the engineer takes longer. Also, the clock is ticking, and we need to build those GA point wonders before the AI gets around to them. However, even under a Philisophic leader, we still don't have the engineer in sight. See what I'm getting at?

Trust me, I'm rooting for you to bring in the engineer: nothing would please me more to see Sistine built in one turn in the GP farm adding even more GA points there. I wouldn't normally advise it, but if you want to divert to Metal Casting for a forge to add an engineer specialist with the Pyramids... hey, why not? I'm only advising that engineers are harder to bring in than other GPs, and one should take some care as to how you're going to plan this out.

One final note on the engineer: If you want build upon the GE idea so as to bring in two or three of them, consider the Hanging Gardens and even the Hagia Sophia (spelling?). If you go that route, then just remember it's Pyramids > Aqueduct > HG > HS in that strict order; no diversions to a temple or whatever. The AI likes the HG, and you'll have competition for it, even on Prince. Furthermore, as I explained above, we don't want the GE points being drowned out immediately by GA points.

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I'm saying this because with pericles as your cultural victor you don't have to have casts system.

No, but it helps. CoL > CS > Paper or Mono > Theo > Paper. Theo is cheaper and nets you a religion, but the civic isn't necessarily useful in this format. CS is incredibly useful in any format. On Prince, you have time to Oracle slingshot right to it.

I see where you folks see the opportunity to bypass Caste System because of the Greek UU, and that is very efficient. However, consider that Caste will allow you to run more than four artists. I average seven artists on my GP farm in my games, and ten is not unheard of. More artist specialists = more Great Artists quicker = efficiency as well.

 

[DesertRogues]

When trying for a Cultural Victory, I usually try to be a warmonger first, taking out a close enemy, especially if he has founded a religion. Former capitol cities are usually great as one of your cultural cities.
I will be watching closely, I usually play prince on epic speed also.

 

[ratrangerm]

Getting the engineer isn't an issue. On Prince, getting the Pyramids isn't a problem, either. However, fitting that in with your overall plan can be. For example, say you chop in a quick religious wonder in your capital while your second city is still building the Pyramids. The prophet spawns, and now the GP counter for the engineer takes longer to come in. In the mean time, your GP farm is off with a fish/clam/grain start, and you have two artists and climbing off and running. The GAs start spawning; now the engineer takes longer. Also, the clock is ticking, and we need to build those GA point wonders before the AI gets around to them. However, even under a Philisophic leader, we still don't have the engineer in sight. See what I'm getting at?

You are correct. Of course, that's assuming I do bother with the Wonders that generate Prophets. Stonehenge isn't necessary, given that Pericles is Creative... the Oracle probably depends on how the early tech path shapes up.

Let's say a neighbor of mine founds either Buddhism or Hinduism... then there really isn't a pressing need to get Judaism as there's a good chance the other religion will spread to me. Or if the situation dictates it, rushing that neighbor and capturing his holy city is a possible path to follow.

Priesthood will obviously be on the list of techs to get, but whether the Oracle is a Wonder to pursue or not is a matter of debate, particularly when I start the game.

Trust me, I'm rooting for you to bring in the engineer: nothing would please me more to see Sistine built in one turn in the GP farm adding even more GA points there. I wouldn't normally advise it, but if you want to divert to Metal Casting for a forge to add an engineer specialist with the Pyramids... hey, why not? I'm only advising that engineers are harder to bring in than other GPs, and one should take some care as to how you're going to plan this out.

Understood. It will all just depend on how things pan out in the early game. I mostly suggested Pyramids because others have utilized it in getting a Cultural victory and it's something I haven't tried yet.