Cultural Victory comparision: IV and V.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by snarzberry, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    Peng Qi -"Wait, how is this substantially different from the Civ IV culture win? Except I guess you didn't have to set a slider. "

    As I'm sure you know, the culture is accumulated in 3 Legendary cities. You have to make smart decisions about where to found those 3 cities. You have to make smart decisions about blocking off land from the other civs. You have to then decide will I have a 6 city empire or a 9 city empire? The answer will depend on a number of factors.

    You have to balance your production/economy while getting your minor cities to contribute as much as possible to GA's while really maximizing GA's from your main city.

    As an above poster mentioned you have to decide when to switch to full culture, there is only one right answer and it will depend on a number of factors. One turn less or more will result in you obtaining the win at a later date.

    You have do decide where to build the Hermitage, in which of my 3 cities? There is only ever one best answer, and it will depend on a number of factors. If a religion spreads to your empire relatively late you must decide if it's worth going for temples/cathedrals or if it will just slow you down.

    You have to be able to predict how many GA's you expect to produce for the rest of the game and that will affect what you do. You have to choose the best time to go into starvation, mega GA making mode in order to pop that last one or two GA's in order to get the earliest win possible.

    You have to manage all these things and you have to coordinate it so that all 3 of your Legendary cities reach the 50K (or whatever on other game lengths) on the exact same turn or you will have wasted culture and could have played the game better.

    These things I've talked about are how to win a culture victory as well as it can be done, not just how to win it eventually. Civ V does not provide this scope of decision making and monitoring and managing.

    In Civ V all culture sources just channel into one generic counter which ticks on up until you win, it is vastly and overtly less complicated and less difficult to do well.
     
  2. masterminded

    masterminded Chieftain

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    To expand upon this, I would also add that there were multiple approaches to accumulating culture. For instance, one could focus on religion for an earlier cultural win or eschew religion and build wonders, generate great artists, and tech to the hermitage.

    Cultural wins in Civ V require that the player focus on the victory type from the beginning and avoid deviation from it due to the poor scaling of social policy costs with empire size, the importance of certain social policies that are unchangeable, etc. This leads to a very narrow path to victory and eschews interesting choices for the illusion of choice.

    Civ IV did not do this. The player could choose to shift to a cultural victory later. There were multiple approaches to winning such. This involved branching decisions and the ability to nimbly shift toward a cultural victory type later in the game. This presents the player with plenty of interesting choices that go well beyond the use of a slider.
     
  3. Creepy Old Man

    Creepy Old Man Warlord

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    I think the problem comes from the crazy way they manage unit maintanence in 5. I just finished an OCC culture victory, and it was horribly boring. Now, in Civ IV or earlier games, any time you try the OCC, you can get a tremendous economy from one city. But in 5, I was struggling the whole time to stay in positive cash flow.

    This meant that I was never able to produce an army. At the end of this game, my seven units were costing me a total of 38 gpt. An 8th cost me 13 more gpt. So while a Civ IV or earlier OCC enables you to build enough troops to "have fun", the option was not there in V. Those seven units had to hang out pretty close to my city all game, just in case. (And I think I was only in four wars all game).

    I'm sure they could have come up with a system where "moderate" armies would be affordable, while rendering the hundred-macemen-spam strategies ineffectual.
     
  4. Justicex

    Justicex Prince

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    Well for me, there was always a point in every civ game where it was just *click* *click* *click*. Even doing Domination victories, there would be a period of stretching my military too thin and reinforcing my advance units so I'd be waiting for the new units to build.

    In my first game, I actually delayed my scientific victory, Ignored the last civ on the map, trying to boost muy culture. When I finally gave up and launched my spaceship, I still was only halfway to a curltural victory. And this was on Settler difficulty!
     
  5. Tanix

    Tanix Chieftain

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    In Emperor difficulty and below the "OCC" doesn't really provide those challenges. I've been focusing on OCC games recently and have won a scientific victory a domination victory and 2 games which would have been easy cultural victories but I closed them down. I shut down those games because I had created an artificial victory condition, a capitol with 75pop. Unfortunately too many maritime City-States got taken over for that to happen. Obviously, I intend to increase the difficulty in my one city games to see if I can get these same victories up through Deity.

    Because they don't. In one of the first games I tried to play all the way through to a scientific win one of the AI built the UN when I had enough votes for a victory. Thanks for screwing up my first science win, AI!
     
  6. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    Tanix, that's exactly my point! If we reduce the victory conditions to:

    1) Fight off AI while you achieve a , uh, peaceful victory.
    2) Kill off all AI

    We don't really have much. If the AI actually achieves victory for itself, like buying out a bunch of city states right before they finish the UN, wouldn't that be just awesome?

    I'd love to be sitting there in modern era... when suddenly all my CS revert to 'friendly'... and Ally with Gandhi. "Uh oh..." bam, next turn UN finishes. Shoot, I need to conquer them or get money or something... crap!

    But that isn't how it works, is it?
     
  7. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Emperor

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    Irrelevant.
    It just sounds more tedious to me.
     
  8. Syntax Error

    Syntax Error Prince

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    I haven't found a surefire way to keep you in the AI's good side, but here are a few things I noticed:

    1. Don't let them see you. They aren't omniscient with regards to the map - they're just as affected by Fog of War as you are. Translation: Never accept Open Borders transactions from civs on the same landmass. If you're on an Archipelago map and you're all alone, whore out OB transactions like it was going out of fashion (easy 50g per transaction).

    2. Don't go back on your word. If it asks you that it notices your units around its borders and you say that you're just passing through, don't declare war on him on the next turn (or possibly, EVER, unless he declares war first).

    3. Keep trading. Luxuries, resources, what have you.

    Also, always accept Pacts of Cooperation and Secrecy. If they drop the facade, they may declare war on you soon afterwards.

    I finished my first cultural victory as France. Three cities, behind a mountain range and sea. The only way inside was a three-tile wide patch of forest. Persia was beside me and became a runaway, but I kept trading with him and only dropped the charade of admiring my economy when I was a few turns away from completing Utopia. On a Pangaea map, no less!
     
  9. }{ELL/\/()

    }{ELL/\/() Warlord

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    Add this to a dumbed down domination (you can easily steal capitols even against stronger AI), a dumbed down diplomatic victory (just bribe city states? take away other UN votes), and a dumbed down science victory (just the layout and set up of the parts, coupled with the idea that its never the best option for anyone to go this way). The game just isnt fun to win anymore.

    Even when im winning on deity I dont feel any sense of accomplishment for any of them. I also used to play civ4 a few levels below my ability (if i was trying to maximize everything) because it gave me different options and let me mess around a bit) but here its a total bore.
     
  10. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Fair enough, but that is a AI issue more than anything else. Note that i was responding to a poster claiming that the goal of the cultural win was to survive long enough while being outteched and outgunned. That is a very wierd proposition when there is a game option that does exactly that by default, no ? ;)

    OFC the crude fact is that the AI that lets you survive in a OCC gunning for space is perfectly able to leave you alone while you gun for culture with 3 cities.... but that is a entirely diferent issue :D
     
  11. Celsus

    Celsus Chieftain

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    In ciV I won a culture victory and was only 3 turns off a diplomatic victory at the same time once. It was mindbogglingly linear and predictable, I don't think I've ever been close to multiple victories at once on cIV (other than domination + something else because I'm just chilling enjoying my empire)
     
  12. Vellis

    Vellis Chieftain

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    Finding this article alone made this topic worth clicking on. This guy is hilarious if he thinks the industry can charge a monthly fee for the privilege to play an FPS online in a world where Valve exists.

    On topic, between puppeting, wonder/tech development in a small empire, and fending off larger opponents, I've always found culture victories in Civ V to be a pretty engaging experience. Bismark leaving you alone to next turn your way to victory sounds like a big fluke, I've NEVER had the AI be that polite =p
     
  13. Tarkeel

    Tarkeel Imperial

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    One obvious difference is that in Civ IV, when you hit end-turn-mode, you could always go out and found some new cities for fun without majorly impacting your finish.

    Personally, I found Civ III's culture victories to be more fulfilling. (Leading to interesting games such as this)
     
  14. JLoZeppeli

    JLoZeppeli Prince

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    So you are saying that a mirrored science victory is better than the previous cultural victory, were the cultural expasion of your empire affect a lot the nearby countries as well (like stealing tiles...)... So building an empire is far less interesting of upgarding a bonus tree?

    When you post it's quite the Scary Movie, i'm waiting your next!

    :popcorn:
     
  15. Quueg

    Quueg Warlord

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    I can watch a baseball game while playing Civ V. Never could do that with Civ IV. Seems to me that's at least one measure of comparative difficulty (or accessibility, if you prefer).
     

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