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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Voting a bit earlier than usual as I have stuff to do later
    Jadwiga/Poland [3] (6-3) Isn't an especially strong civ regarding any victory condition, only has an incentive to hoard relics and an extra wildcard slot maybe for GPP.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22] (21+1) I'll throw an upvote for Canada because they can save their faith for Rock Bands exclusively and amass a lot of National Parks via Mounties, which is the only strong Canadian bonus.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
    Jadwiga/Poland [3]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [7]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  2. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Jadwiga/Poland [Eliminated] 3-3, pretty weak compared to the rest of this list for all the reasons people have said, just not strong enough to keep her in.
    Trajan/Rome [14] 13+1 Trajan on the other hand is very strong, maybe not not top 10 but definitely needs to hang about for a while. The free monument powers though civics and the Legions will take out your neighbours establishing a strong empire that can go in any direction you want.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [7]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  3. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    -3 ) John Curtin / Australia (7 >> 4) Strong civ overall, but you want those high appeal tiles for your districts, and may need to choose between tourism (peace) and production (war)

    +1)
    Gitarja / Indonesia (18 >> 19) TS adjacency is not easy to find, so getting the help of the coast here is useful. Also, a relevant faith production in most maps (except Pangea), and on top of that, a tourism providing UI that takes otherwise blank tiles. Gitarja may be not top 3 material, but she's nevertheless strong for CV.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  4. kryat

    kryat King

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    Kupe/Maori [18] (17+1) Maori are great for a culture victory. Very high culture yields, a spammable post-flight culture tile that's not even an improvement! (Marae), sea-focused to help meet other leaders early and great placement for trade routes, and has a great faith economy for buying naturalists. Oh, and he's actively discouraged from adding lumber mills that would mess up National Parks later. He's great.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16] (19-3) If Magnificence Catherine is somewhat overrated, then Japan is greatly overrated. Half price theater squares are helpful, sure. But Matthias (half) and Amanitore (discounted) get those as well, and Matthias gets to build the buildings faster too, and has some direct tourism. Japan also gets higher adjacency on theater squares, which can be tricky. But Japan suffers from the usual ramp up problems, and Netherlands and Australia can usually match or beat the adjacency bonus. Then there's the electronics factory.... which is a very meh building. Great if you've been building industrial zones. But there's still that pesky district cap that Japan runs into. You want to build theater squares AND commercial districts AND industrial zones AND holy sites AND campuses AND harbors AND... it just takes a long time to get to necessary population. You're much better off with Cyrus, Cleopatra, Catherine, Pedro, Kupe, Peter, Wilfred, Pericles, Gorgo, Qin, Menelik, Kristina, or Bull Moose Teddy. Any of these could probably beat Japan in a 1v1 culture game.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  5. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Catherine : A theoretical vote as I haven't played her yet, but that project sure looks strong.
    Mansa Musa: Sure, he has an unconventional approach to a culture win, buying everything... But there's better ways to approach it.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21] (20+1)
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9] (12-3)
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  6. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Messages:
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    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [3] (6-3) - Extra envoys are earned from levying. It still costs gold, and you probably would be better suited spending gold on great people or other augments to culture/tourism. The extra envoys might help, or might not, depending on random factors such as which city states are present, unconquered, and how many opposing envoys are present. The thermal bath can give an extra three tourism, if there is a geothermal fissure present (assuming I understand the thermal bath description correctly). Entertainment complexes are usually low priority districts. Maybe build one for colosseum until much later in the game. At least that's usually what I do.
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6] (5+1) - Why the hate for Georgia? They are much stronger than Hungary at the very least (for culture). 1) Golden ages are easier to earn. The "wish you were here" dedication shows up in four eras, starting in modern. This grants national parks +100% tourism and increases tourism from wonders 50% in cities with governors. 2) They also get an envoy bonus, which I'd argue is easier to use than Hungary's. Useful for getting city-states bonuses, when they are in the game. 3) The Tsikhe provides 6 tourism in a golden age, which you'll probably have with Georgia. Moreover, it can be built in any city, without requiring a district you probably wouldn't want or needing a geothermal fissure. Walls have a reduced cost as well, augmented by civ's unique trait and possibly more with the limes card. 4) Extra faith from walls and +100% from protectorate war when possible is useful for several reasons - great people, naturalists, rock bands... I may be the only one, but I like Georgia a lot.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Weraptor and Dantesedge like this.
  7. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

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    Jayavarman :The relic strategy for winning a CV is surprisingly strong (much to my disbelief before trying it myself as Pedro recently), and noone can generate relics as good as Jayavarman. He is surprisingly reliant for a CV this way as he only relies on getting the Reliquaries belief, something the AI won't usually pick too often. He generates relics faster than anyone else through the cheap cost of Missionaries, and unlike everyone else, isn't reliant on Yerevan/Mont St. Michel to do so with the more expensive apostles.

    Mvemba a Nzinga: He used to be quite good, but with the increased importance of faith for a CV (natural parks, rock bands, even relic generation), he simply falls behind too easily and I think he is way too highly rated these days. Mvemba is also extremely luck-dependent (getting an early relic can boost the game hard for Kongo), which I generally dislike about a civ. Also falls further behind as he can't really partake in the relic approach to CV, which is ironic seeing as he has an ability that that encourages getting them (which he usually can't).


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [10]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15] (14+1)
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16] (19-3)
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  8. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

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    Teddy/America (BM) (21+1) Just completed my first game as Bull Moose Teddy. My gosh, that free science & culture though. I was sending pictures left-right-and-centre to my friends, showing off my obscene yields, which only get stronger and stronger as the game goes on. The one thing I regret is that I took the settler pantheon instead of earth goddess – d'ohh! That put a hard cap on how many naturalists I could buy (c.f. why Canada are so good). But all in all, Bull Moose is pretty darn special.

    (Also @Francel, for some perspective I just won that Teddy game on t 189. That's way before "Wish You Were Here" comes into play. If you're having to rely on that dedication to win, you've left your victory too late. But you're definitely right about one thing – you're the first person I've met who admits to liking Georgia!)

    Eleanor/France (10-3) To be honest, I thought she had been eliminated ages ago. The vanilla bonuses that come with France are hugely underwhelming. The Chateau is underwhelming, 20% to only some wonders is underwhelming, and although double tourism to all wonders sounds good it actually isn't anything special. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I know wonders produce much less tourism compared to great works or natural parks. So why is Eleanor still here? Her loyalty bonus is a gimmick, it never actually contributes anything to winning the game.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7] (10-3)
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [5]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22] (21+1)
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2020
  9. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Messages:
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    #186's vote for Hungary and Tamar wasn't included in the 2 votes after it. I included it in my voting.

    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4] (3+1) Just think Hungary doesn't deserve to go so soon. In any game that a tourism-UI CS exist you can just use that to win. The Pearl of the Danube ability is also good for spamming districts.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19] (22-3) I get that people like Bull Moose Teddy. And yes it's fun and powerful. But the getting culture/science from tiles of its leader ability is actually something very general (very OP), not specialized to culture victory very much - yes I get that National Parks add appeal to city, good synergy to the ability of getting culture/science from tiles, but that kicks in too late in the game. And so is Film Studio - which is powerful but also late, and if FS is the reason that Teddy is good then it cannot be explained by the huge difference between BM Teddy and RR Teddy.

    I get people's love to BM Teddy, but it's not stronger than Persia in terms of boosting tile appeal.


    @Drivingrevilo I get that winning with Magnificent Catherine needs some non-traditional play. And it can be deemed as cheesy. But I think that's a general problem of many "creative" Civ in Civ VI, and more or less a design problem, not a particular Civ's. Anyway won't upvote Magnificent Catherine in posts in recent future as the attention I needed to bring is already there and I don't have anything to say on her any more. (I think that many won't have much to say if they keep voting daily, and that will be a generic problem for an elimination thread that span a few weeks.)

    The problem of Magnificent Catherine is that her project unlocks too early and is too powerful early game. If it unlocks on Medieval Faires, or only gives 30 tourism per luxury on unlock, 50 after unlocking Medieval Faires, 70 after Opera and Ballet, it will be a lot more interesting. Then people won't win so fast and you have incentives to keep developing Civics.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  10. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    719
    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [19]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9] (12-3)
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [5] (4+1)

    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Matthias: I'd also like to respond to @Jewelrunna here, who took the rather unusual step of down-voting Pericles stating that Pericles has no real bonuses to tourism. Aside from this being untrue because a lot of the key tourism wonders and the like come through the Civics tree, I find in practice it is also deeply untrue because the biggest Tourism bonus of all comes from being able to construct Theatre Squares and their buildings quickly. I very rarely have problems generating enough Great People to get all my works; the bigger problem I have is Great Writers and the like sat in the capital with nothing to do because I have nowhere to stick them. Turns shaved off building Theatre Squares and Art Museums and the like mean extra turns where those works are directly contributing to Tourism. If you get a Theatre Square up in a new City 15 turns faster, then you'll hit the Art Museum 15 turns faster slightly later on, and you get an extra 15 turns' tourism generation. That's very significant and impactful, and means Pericles in my view definitely deserves to start running away at the top. However, similar logic applies to Matthias thanks to Pearl of the Danube. He can usually get his Theatre Squares going really quickly and that's not insignificant!

    Then, of course, Matthias also has the big advantage of a strong City-State game @Francel above said "well you'd rather use that gold elsewhere" and I think this is just categorically untrue. On average, Cultural City-States like Nan Madol, Kumasi, Cahuana, and Rapa Nui are some of the most powerful and impactful bonuses in the game and do a huge amount of work towards speeding up a Cultural Victory; locking them down is definitely among the most valuable uses of that gold. There's no way Matthias should be going this early, there's a fair few Civs worse than him still hanging around. Matthias, for the purposes of Cultural Victory, is a "somewhat worse Pericles" (same easy theatre squares but less good, also has good control over City-States but harder to leverage properly), but seeing as Pericles should be finishing top 3 and has a very strong claim for 1st place, Matthias shouldn't be doing so poorly behind him! Don't mistake Matthias for just being a warmonger.

    Lautaro: Very little going for Lautaro, to be honest. The Chemamull is too contextual to be a reliable path forward and can be difficult to spam in the quantities needed. If you're playing Lautaro for Cultural Victory and you miss the Eiffel Tower, you're really only very slightly better than a generic Civ.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  11. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Gitarja/Indonesia [16] (19-3) Overrated. I find it rather odd that we're criticizing Australia for having to put his districts on high appeal tiles where he'd rather put seaside resorts, while at the same time upvoting Indonesia because they can get a little adjacency bonus (less than Australia's!) on their theater squares... by putting them on high appeal coastal tiles where they'd rather put seaside resorts. Odd reasoning and yet there's more than a dozen points separating the two! Gitarja's adjacency bonus isn't even that great (+.5 per coast). EDIT: As @bbbt pointed out, I forgot about Kampung tourism, and that is fairly substantial. I still think it's weird that Gitarja is getting upvoted for theater square adjacency, though, and she doesn't really have anything else that's going to help with tourism outside of the Kampung. Too late to change my vote or anything, but 16 points still seems about right compared to her peers on the list.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20] (19+1) Look guys, if we keep downvoting really good civs because "they're not stronger than Persia" we're going to be in this thread for a long time. Let's get rid of the folks that are nowhere near the level of the top half of the list and then let it sort itself out from there. BM Teddy is really good, and while his tourism push maybe starts later compared to others (though maybe not as late as you'd think since he seems to fly through the civics tree in my experience) he fills up that circle really fast once it does... I was amazed at how quickly it happened once you get the ball rolling.

    RE: Peter, just a random thought, but I always kind of laugh when people talk about how strong Peter is. It's the Lavra. The Lavra does everything for him. "He gets a ton of GWAM points!" That's the Lavra. "He easily founds a religion and swims in faith!" That's the Lavra. "He can take advantage of work ethic like noone else!" Again, the Lavra. No district is as OP as that one. At least both Greek leaders have really interesting and useful leader abilities to add to what the Acropolis does, but Peter... Peter's game is 99% the Lavra. The rest of his kit is a bunch of meh.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16] (19-3)
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [5]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20] (19+1)
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  12. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    Catherine/France (BQ) [10] (13-3) Fairly weak cultural bonuses here. +3 combat strength is never game changing and stealing great works is too RNG-dependent. You’re better off either buying them or building your theater squares and buildings faster than everyone else and earning all the GWAMs. Even wonders with +100% tourism don’t produce nearly as much tourism as great works, so don’t mindlessly spam them. You probably only want to build like 4 wonders of the applicable ages (Kilwa, Forbidden, maybe Hermitage, Mont St Michel and St Basil’s if going for relics). Chateaus are fairly weak tiles most of the time.

    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6] (5+1) Hungary’s ability gives +50% production towards districts across a river and the buildings in those districts. Faster theater squares and buildings means you win well before “Wish You Were Here” becomes available. Only Japan and Greece can get their theater square buildings up and running nearly as quickly as Hungary can on average.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [10] (13-3)
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6] (5+1)
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    hhhhhh and CrabHelmet like this.
  13. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    698
    I'm going to pick a fight between Hojo and Pericles. Sure Hojo has half priced, decent adjacency Theater Squares, though they have a slow buildup. He also has half priced Holy Sites, but their adjacency is also only decent, and is thus not particularly useful to spreading religion and/or getting relics and/or accumulating big stockpiles of faith for naturalists and rock bands. Now, Pericles doesn't get half priced Holy Sites, but they would be equally unimportant for his tourism game. For both leaders, Holy Sites would be an opportunity cost trap.


    But Pericles has the half-priced Theater Square with great, immediate adjacency. He's going to spam them. He gets an extra envoy for each, which translates to more suzereinity which gives him % culture gains. He will have higher culture than Hojo, and be first to civics like Conservation (Parks) and Professional Sports (Ski Resorts). It's important to remember that for Tourism, earlier is always better since it's a lifetime metric.

    In summary, Pericles will likely have more (and earlier) Theater Squares than Hojo, which means more Tourism from more GWAMs. He will definitely have higher culture than Hojo, which means being first to Parks and Skiing, which means more Tourism.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [10]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  14. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,233
    @bengalryan9 - and anyone else that isn't aware. Indonesia's infinitely spammable Kampungs provide TOURISM from their FOOD bonus with flight - https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Kampung_(Civ6)

    Not saying they are an amazing cultural civ (I'm not actually upvoting here), but they have a lot more in terms of direct bonuses than Australia in that regard.

    I want to touch on Wonders. Wondering building is a lot of fun, but as folks have said, Wonders don't actually provide much direct tourism. +2 per wonder base and +1 per era on top of that. A tourism victory by wonder building is like the least efficient way to do it.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [7] 10 - 3 - In that regard France's double tourism bonus from wonders isn't terribly significant. Add in that their wonder building bonus is at like the least helpful era of wonders. And that the LUA spy bonuses don't add a lot besides great works theft.

    Qin Shi Huang/China [24] 23 + 1 - So how is China different? His wonder bonus timing fits better with some useful early wonders, is less overhead (the cost of a worker), and the extra worker use helps even with chopping in wonders you want later on.

    But frankly, if all China had was the wonder bonus, I'd be downvoting him instead. China's UI - the Great Wall - was buffed a while back, and is now pretty awesome. A significant amount of early gold, and then a not insignificant amount of late game tourism from flight as it's pretty easy to start spamming late game for +4 culture/tourism on a bunch of tiles you might not be using for anything better.



    Catherine/France (BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [22]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  15. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2017
    Messages:
    365
    Gender:
    Male
    People, please remember to edit your vote counts in the copy-paste section to account for what you're voting for. It's getting pretty annoying to have to go back in and account for your own votes after I've already written up a whole post, only to see that people didn't count their own votes.

    Catherine/France (BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [23]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Cyrus/Persia [23] (22 + 1): The votes for Cyrus will continue until morale improves. I've made my case enough times already, so I'll simply leave it at that I think Persia is the best Culture Victory Civ in the game, predicated almost entirely on just how good the Pairidaeza is.

    John Curtin/Australia [1] (4 - 3): Australia's abilities actually come into a bit of conflict with how you actually play a Culture Victory game. Since you want to put your districts in places that have high tile appeal, that limits the amount of National Parks and Seaside Resorts you can put down. Despite having a pretty good Faith and Culture economy, you sometimes have to make a choice between using Australia's Civ ability or playing the optimal Tourism game, which is a sucky decision to have to make.

    To respond to @CrabHelmet: no one is disputing that Pericles' Greece is a strong Culture Civ, but I think there's a bit of a misconception on what the primary source of Tourism is. Most of your Tourism actually comes from high appeal tiles in National Parks and Seaside Resorts, and what makes Persia so strong is that they can supercharge these tiles through the Pairidaezas (which also generate Tourism themselves). Even beyond Persia, a lot of the other top-tier Culture Civs (BQ Catherine, Sweden, China, Canada, and BM Teddy) have abilities that provide a direct injection of Tourism into their game along with a bonus to earning Culture. Pericles doesn't have that in his, rather just focusing on earning the most Culture of any Civ in the game. It'd be foolish to dispute that this doesn't matter, as I noted when I downvoted him; getting to Tourism wonders and techs is definitely a huge boost, but the fact still remain that Pericles doesn't have a raw Tourism steroid like the other top tier Culture Civs. Also, since Great Writers got nerfed, they're less relevant in a Culture Victory, and even discarding those nerfs, getting late-game Tourism from the NPs & SRs was already the primary focus in this victory condition. Essentially what I'm getting at is that despite having a huge amount of Culture per-turn, raw Culture translates less into a CV win than in a Science Victory; Tourism is what gets you the win, and Pericles doesn't have direct bonuses to it, which means to me that he shouldn't be a runaway.
     
    Weraptor likes this.
  16. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    84
    Catherine/France (BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [23]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [23] (22+1) Early theming and pre-flight open-air.
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [20]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11] (14-3) All roads lead to domination.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  17. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,657
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Upvote
    Perisa
    23+1. parideaza alone is worth upvoting. The best civ for UI type of culture victory supperted by faith (HS improve parideazas, parideazas improve appeal, the best leader to utilize earth goddes). And because Cyrus is always one of 3 civs crazy spamming culture late game, added benefit of not haveing Cyrus in game

    Downvote
    Brazil (20-3)
    Unjustified runaway, now slightly behind culture powerhouses while his bonuses are pretty weak for CV comparing to other 20+ civs. I konw there are lots of fans of Brazil here, but it should not be popularity thread
    Carnival + refund
    20% refund on great people supported by carnivals is fantastic, but in SV, where it is important who gets those great people. In CV doeasn't really matter who recruits GWAMs, because you can easily buy works from AIs (typically 10-20 or for a little strategic resources) and every AI will trade it except Eleonor (and sometimes Kongo / Poland want too high price for relics). Also note you need to recriut your first GWAM to get a refund and it is pretty difficult as Brazil - typically 2 AIs per game go early theatres and as Pedro you have little chances to beat it - Pedro has lower chance to get early theatres than Germany (added district slot), Cree (earlier unlocked slots+ higher production), Zulu and Korea (district discount mechanism, you can easily get 3 discounted theatres, especially as Zulu), Mongolia (horse tanks), Nubia and I mention only civs already eliminated, so Brazilian GWAM generation starts typically later. Pedro has also lower income and cannot affod buiying great works as Dido, England, Cree, again all eliminated.
    Carnival and 20% is pretty unreliable to get great writers, while very reliabe to get musicians. But when great music starts to be important, flight is in play and Mapuche with chemamull kill Brazilian carnival.
    There is a question of great artists - you can pretty reliably get more of them, but it is kind of trap, because archeological museum are far easier to theme.
    Faith
    Their increase of faith is higher, but not enough to become faith powerhouse (+1 from rainforest for HS). Brazil greatly benefits friom 2 pantheons, but have no bonus to get those pantheons and getting pantheon at t35+ usually mean both are gone. Restarting for dyes / forst meet of CS / relics is not a way game should be played IMO
    +1 appeal rainforest
    The only thing I see strong in Brazilian set for CV. But without earthgoddes don't expect national park spam

    All together make a good CV, I agree. But not the same tier with Cathy Mag, Cyrus, Sweden, Ethiopia, Greece, Russia, China, Canada, America, so I had to downvote to make a clear border between great CV civs and good CV civs


    Catherine/France (BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [24]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  18. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    373
    Catherine/France (BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [21] (24-3) He has only the pairi... going for him. Yes it buffs appeal, but so do chateaus, forests, nazca lines.
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23] (22+1) cheap Acropolis plus city state culture bonus.
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  19. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    624
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20] (19+1) I disagree with Persia being the top cultural civ based on the pairidaezas alone. It's a powerful UI, undoubtedly, but that alone can't carry him to the number one spot. There was a time when the pairidaeza was the only game in town offering +2 appeal... But now the Sphinx provides the same. Every argument used to justify Persia being the best should apply to Egypt as well. They both provide about the same amount of culture/tourism. Pairidaezas next to theatre squares net 3 c+t, and sphinxes on floodplains give the same. So they put out the same amount of tourism roughly, both give +2 appeal... But did you know you can build Sphinxes next to each other now? They are more spammable than pairidaezas. Combine that with Egypt's better faith economy, you'll have a better time with naturalists and rock stars.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7] (10-7) re-outfitted to pursue a diplo victory. The envoy bonus could be helpful for cultural city states, and he still has the Film Studio, but his abilities don't work together as well as Bull Moose, and he's clearly the weaker option of the two for CV.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [21]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Weraptor likes this.
  20. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Messages:
    3,323
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Catherine/France(BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22] = [21+1]: Very good if setting up for a CV early, even better if that effort is sustained until the big bonuses kick in.
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [9]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [6] [9-3] Not geared enough to generate culture early which makes it hard to get going on a CV.
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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