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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Dantesedge

    Dantesedge Chieftain

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    No @Francel , you are not the only person who likes Tamar. I actually love to play as Tamar and I think it's the civ I've played the most so far. Post-GS Georgia is really fun. Across the board, I consider them "good" but definitely not great, but I truly don't consider them to be a weak or lousy civ one bit. I think they are underrated in general - I mean on these forums they came in the Top 5 for diplomacy, Top 10 for religion, and I'm expecting them to be about middle here; thats not too bad. That said, I won't downvote them right now because I think the +9 overall tourism from walls in every city and overall faith is pretty strong, BUT I won't upvote them either because I think Tamar suffers from a lack of culture at the beginning and is the only faith/culture civ that can't push for the Eiffel Tower to make super powerful NP's due to it being in Steel which cancels out her ability to build more Tsikhe's. She's about where she needs to be. Anyways, moving on...

    Kristina/Sweden [24] (23+1) I meant to hold off on the civs that didn't need my help to stay ahead this early, but I felt like throwing one to Kristina because I do think she deserves to be ranked up near the very, very top. Her unique Tier 2 gov building is pretty strong if you throw everything great work you have up to that point into it which, thanks to the auto-theming (Kristina's biggest strength to which she can drink the tears of poor Vicky for), gives a huge boost to tourism the moment you get it up. On top of the rest of your auto-themed museums and wonders, the Open Air Museum is tremendous... it provides tourism before Flight, and as long as you've placed at least one city in the proper landscape, +10 tourism per one tile improvement in each city is pretty strong. Personally, I think Kristina has the ability to take the #1 spot in this race, but we'll see...

    Lautaro/Mapuche [6] (9-3) His time has come for me. Since I'm still spreading my votes, I argued last time against Mr. Waltzing Matilda's problem with balancing high appeal TS/HS with the ability to build NP's and seaside resorts and I won't downvote twice in a row (not until we're down to the final 10 or so for me). So Lautaro suffers from the same issue. Granted, you can bulldoze their UI later which John can't do, but they still have the possibility of getting in your way later. Backtracking is counterproductive so Lautaro gets the downvote this time. That and good HS yields is all he really has for a culture victory.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [6]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Francel and Weraptor like this.
  2. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Rome (11+1=12) A simple but powerful early game ability makes Rome easily the best civ for pushing through the early game civics tree. This translates into a major jump start on whatever victory path you choose to pursue.
    Georgia (6-3=3) Late game golden ages are a major boost to cultural victory, but they aren't guaranteed to Georgia, nor are they inaccessible to other civs. This isn't nearly as significant a late game bonus as civs like Canada, Sweden and America get, nor does Georgia receive nearly enough benefits in the earlier game to make up for it.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [7]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [7]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [6]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    HereticalAppendicle likes this.
  3. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    496
    Poor French Eleanor getting no love, except from me. Chateaus are modestly useful. Being able to move books around to flip cities is all sorts of fun and guarantees continual golden age. Eleanor is best at slow speeds as loyalty doesn't scale with turn speed. In one marathon game, I settled 13 cities and peacefully flipped 28 before turn 555 (turn 185 standard equivalent) when the game ended. The ability actually improves with difficulty as well as neighboring AIs in dark ages are easy picking.

    Black Queen Catherine, on the other hand is useless. OK, at lower difficulties, you can wonder spam your way to a fast win, but at any reasonable difficulty, there are far better civs.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [4] [7-3]

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [8] [7+1]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [6]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  4. Lamington

    Lamington Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Location:
    Australia
    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [8]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [1]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [17]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Mansa Musa/Mali [3] (6-3) Yes he can buy his way to theatre square (buildings) through Jesuit Education, but honestly, he doesn’t have strong culture bonuses, aside from good faith bonuses for national parks and rock bands.

    Kupe/Maori [19] (18+1) I’ll send another upvote Kupe’s way. Great direct tourism bonuses through Marae at flight, and with early ocean going, can potentially across a wider range of the world earlier to lead to trade route tourist bonus.
     
  5. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    The remark about Freleanor: it seems to be "easier" to flip at slower game speed because loyalty does not scale with game speed. Marginally speaking I still think Spy Catherine's ability trumps Freleanor in the context of CVs. There are just too many free variables for Freleanor's ability.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [8]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    John Curtin/Australia [-2] Eliminated. A fair standing for Curtin.
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    I think AI usually prioritise Sacred Paths quite abit, but not so much Earth Goddess nowadays.
    If you fail to get either, then Divine Spark is also good for Pedro for it is really synergistic with LUA Magnanimous.
    Cheap Copacabanas, Street Carnivals, means it is relatively easy for Pedro to buff seaside resorts.
    Still pretty synergistic with most of the CS tile improvements (Colossal heads, Alcazars, Bateys, except for Moais I guess) if one doesnt chop rainforests or harvest resources on rainforests.

    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  6. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    145
    Peter/Russia [24] (23+1) Didn't vote yesterday, but not much seems to have changed with the scores. I don't think China and Sweden deserve joint first place. Wonders only take you so far with tourism (though China can built a lot of them), and I've always felt Kristina suffers from receiving no help with GWAM generation. But instead of downvoting either, I'll upvote Peter to join them on 24. As someone said earlier (was skim-reading the comments, can't remember who), Peter's strengths can be simplified down to one thing: the Lavra. Quite simply, it is the most over-powered district in the game.

    Eleanor/France [5] (8-3) I'm not convinced that Catherine (BQ) should go before Freleanor. Catherine's spies are very flexible. You can use them to steal great works (I think that bug was fixed, right?), but you can also use them to steal gold – a LOT of gold. I remember my last Catherine game, I was insta-buying archaeologists and museums nearly every turn on the back of stealing so much income from Mali and Egypt. Eleanor's ability, on the other hand, is not flexible. I had one terrible experience as Eleanor where I managed to flip only one city in the entire game – only one! And while that was definitely bad luck (combination of poor start, massive Kongo cities as one neighbour, and the other neighbour rushing Statue of Liberty), what it does reflect is that Eleanor has too many variables taken out of your control. And besides: even if it does work as intended, does it impact culture victory in any meaningful way....?


    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [5] (8-3)
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24] (23+1)
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  7. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

    Joined:
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    Japan [14] (13+1). Hojo has fallen too low. When playing as 'normal' Civs, i.e. the ones who don't have a unique improvement or who don't get a unique gimmick like the Khmer, the speed of your tourism victory is usually capped by two things: 1.) how many Theatre Squares you can build to provide slots for your GWAMs; and 2.) how much mid-to-late-game faith you can generate to purchase National Parks and Rock Bands. Hojo receives very potent bonuses to each of these. Half-price Theatre Squares means you can spam a load of crappy mid-game cities yet still get their Amphitheaters / Museums up in record time; and half-price Holy Sites means you can either secure a very easy religion (cf. our past elimination thread), or you can pivot to Holy Sites in the mid-game to send your faith generation sky-rocketing. I also think 'Meiji Restoration' is being dismissed too easily, in my opinion it is perhaps the most universally useful bonus in the game (especially for Theatre Squares and Industrial Zones). But even on the basis of the half-price districts alone, Japan deserves to remain for much, much longer.

    Rough Rider Teddy [4] (7-3) Kind of forgot he was still here. Definitely a diplomatic victory Civ now, or possibly domination (though not both). Film Studio is very good for what it does, but most of the other candidates are able to win the game by the time anyone reaches the modern era.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [5]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14] (13+1)
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [4] (7-3)
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    JhGf_123 and CrabHelmet like this.
  8. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1] (4-3) The only tool he has now are city states and super late film studios, the trade routes to city states could be utilized better for a tourism modifier.

    Tamar/Georgia [4] (3+1) Doesn't deserve to go just yet imho. Guaranteed GA, good faith output and more tourism from a building you should build anyway and that doesn't take a tile. Not before RR Teddy and Matthias at least.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [5]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [6]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Francel and Dantesedge like this.
  9. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    65
    Hojo/Japan [15] (14+1) Drivingrevlo explained this well, Japan has gotten too low. Hojo’s not top 5, he might not even be top 10; but he’s the ‘best of the rest’ in terms of the mid-tier culture Civs, those who can win a tourism victory in a very respectable time but will struggle to break the t200 mark because they lack a real deal-breaker bonus.

    Lautaro/Mapuche [3] (6-3) Fairly outrageous he lasted longer than Australia, to be honest. One of the worst civilisations in the game, practically vanilla in most situations; versus a civ who everyone agrees is borderline OP, but who no one seems willing to defend in these threads. Waltzing Matilda isn’t THAT bad, guys!

    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [5]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Lautaro/Mapuche [3]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  10. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2012
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    5,536
    Gender:
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    Location:
    Gibraltar
    Lautaro/Mapuche [Eliminated] 3-3 I agree it's crazy he lasted this long and longer than Australia or Scotland but definitely time to go now.
    Trajan/Rome [13] Still think he is being under rated, free monuments will power his way to covics before others, maybe not top 10 but still stronger than many of the Civs left.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [5]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  11. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Freleanor: She can weaponize culture but that doesn't help her win a culture victory specifically...

    Menelik: Swimming in faith for rock bands, archaeologists and naturalists. What's not to like.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [4]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [2] (5-3)
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22] (21+1)
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Weraptor likes this.
  12. kryat

    kryat King

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    Catherine/France (BQ) [6] (5+1) There’s a few here that deserve to go first. The Black Queen is very strong due to heists. This not only lets you get great works without running projects, but also lets you redistribute stolen ones among non-threats. Where’s Seondeok going to put the Last Supper? Who cares! As long as Peter doesn’t have it any more! She has a rare defense of a cultural victory. This means Catherine can avoid the endgame slog that plagues some competitive culture victories. And of course, she has fantastic wonder building for some very great wonders.

    Trajan/Rome [10] (13-3) I take no happiness in this downvote, but it’s time. Free monuments are very strong, but that’s where the bonuses end. Monuments don’t give tourism. Aqueducts don’t get you great works.


    Catherine/France (BQ) [6]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [3]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  13. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    686
    Mali: Should at least outlast the remaining low fruit, if not finish higher (but bias against Mali usually prevents this). Honestly Mali is stronger than most people give them credit for, and they got even stronger with the Work Ethic buff. You can hard build theater squares if you have work ethic holy sites with Desert Folklore doubled by scripture because you'll have more production and earlier than most civs will even despite a malus (which doesn't apply to districts anyways). In non holy site cities you can just buy theater squares with Reyna or moshka or chop them in with faith-bought builders. In all cases you can buy their buildings instantly with gold (discounted if you built a Suguba), and you can buy great works away from everyone else.

    To go further, your faith gives you tourism to your holy city, and tourism bonuses to same-religion civs. You'll also have more Tourism bonuses because you have the trade routes available to send to everyone (rip Dido).

    Lastly, when it comes to Naturalists and Rock Bands, Mali is rivaled in faith bank only by Russia and Ethiopia.


    Downvote: BQ Catherine. Just not strong enough to remain.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [2]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [21]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    @kryat you seem to have given BQ and extra point, I believe mine is correct. (And you docked Tamar too)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  14. Francel

    Francel Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    195
    Gender:
    Female
    Catherine/France(BQ) [2]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18] (21-3) - Let's be objective here and consider Cyrus/Persia one feature at a time. Fall of Babylon - a buff to surprise wars - I don't see how this is useful. Immortal - an interesting unique unit, but not helpful for culture victory. Satrapies - domestic trade routes +1 culture; however, if you want trade routes to generate culture, international routes still make more sense. Thus, I see this as essentially a free extra trade route. Finally, the paradise garden: it's pretty similar to Egypt's sphinx in that it provides appeal, cannot be built adjacent to itself, and provides a similar amount of culture. Perhaps a bit more if you carefully plan your districts. Still, I'd rather have the bonus faith from the sphinx than the extra gold for culture victory strategy. Finally, the rest of Egypt's kit works better in my opinion for this win condition. Thus, I feel comfortable ranking Egypt ahead of Persia. I don't see how Persia could be considered "the best."
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17] (16+1) - The Kampung is strong, arguably stronger than Cyrus' paradise garden for a few reasons. Firstly, kampungs are built on water tiles that you usually won't have much other use for, unless they have a resource. Secondly, kampungs can be built adjacent to one another. Thirdly, they provide stronger overall yields. Fourthly, they provide tourism per food after researching flight. Food yield can be increased by harbor buildings and adjacent fishing boats --> tourism. Finally, kampungs are strong enough to justify putting cities in suboptimal locations, as long as there is water (small islands, polar areas, etc). Moving on from the Kampung, Indonesia also gets some minor bonuses to faith and culture generation. Not much but worth mentioning.
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Edit: It looks like a few people posted at approximately the same time. I've tried to make sure my post is correct, but I apologize if there is still an error.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
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  15. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2020
    Messages:
    74
    Gender:
    Male
    Pericles/Greece + 1: What's not to love? Easy Acropolises built in half time which get a decent base culture, as well as the free envoys on top to secure the vital city states that further cement his lead. Also the 5% culture on each suzerained CS is just icing on the cake. And that extra wildcard slot can sometimes be vital in securing a strong early game (you can slot in production AND faith for your pantheon) and even bonus GPPs towards a religion, which indirectly can help a CV. Definitely a top 5 contender at least, even though I had a hard time choosing between him and Gorgo for this particular vote.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan -3: Sorry, but Hojo needs to go. Half price Theatre Squares doesn't help much by itself (unlike Pericles who gets a ton of extra stuff when building his half-time Acropolis), and it's really the only thing he has going for him apart from half price holy sites. Both culture/tourism and faith are vital for a CV, but without further bonuses (apart from construction speed) he just doesn't have the ability to really power through in any of these fields.
    A strong all-rounder, but that's as far as it goes for him.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [2]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [24]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    @Francel It seems you forgot to add the point to Gitarja. Corrected mine to reflect the value of 17 (correct number) over 16.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,835
    Hojo (12+1=13): Voting down Japan is lunacy. Half-priced theater squares, half-priced holy sites, and better adjacency bonuses on both of them. What's not to like? He's just about guaranteed a religion, if you want one. He gets all the early golden ages from building high-adjacency districts. And, again, half-priced theater squares *and* holy sites. I can't imagine Hojo not being top 10, at least. Probably better.

    RR Teddy (1-3=ELIMINATED): The film studio comes too late to make RR Teddy a great cultural leader. He's better suited to diplomacy with a little bit of conquering.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [2]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [24]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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  17. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,009
    +1) Catherine/France(BQ) (2>>3) What @kryat stated above: Heists, heists, heists (plus wonders and chateaus). Culture Victory is a Tourism vs Culture race: you should outperform with Tourism what other civs have of inner culture. In that sense, you may focus on getting additional tourism, but another potential strategy (even need, if you are racing against a different victory type) is reducing the culture output of the stronger inner tourism civs. Stealing great works helps both, and the Black Queen, besides having an important tourism kit with Grand Tour and chateaus, has the best option to get a strong team of white-collar thiefs.

    -3) Pericles/Greece (24>>21) And, because it is paired with the statement above, Pericles gets the runaway downvote this time. Pericles (Greece in general) is a quite good example of a strong cultural victory "defender", wich will make it difficult for you to achieve a Cultural Victory against him, but has less strenght on his toolkit to transform that culture into tourism. Therefore, even with him being a quite strong Culture player, Qin, Peter, Kristina, the Magnificent, Menelik, and even North America's nature park pair are much more suited to fill the Tourism counter than him.

    Sidenote: someone stated Gitarja had the same problem than Australia on losing high appeal tiles in order to build extra adjacency district. Just to remind that there are low-appeal coastal tiles too, and you need at least breathtaking to build seaside resorts. Building teathers in low-apeal coast tiles does not block your seaside resorts (and even more, can push nearby tiles to breathtaking for even more resorts). Additionally, Kampungs.


    Catherine/France(BQ) [3]
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [21]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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  18. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
    716
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France(BQ) [eliminated] (3-3) Maybe it's the way I play, but I've always found her bonuses to espionage to be pretty overwhelming. You get one extra spy, and while it is nice to get that spy early the game gives you access to a ton of spies as it is. Her spies start out with a promotion, but I've never found it difficult to get my spies to the level cap anyways. At the end of the day, Cathy's spies will have the same 90% success rate on missions as my spies as any other leader. Besides all that, I just don't think stealing Great Works is that reliable of a strategy - it flat out wasn't working for months (though they've now since fixed that bug), and the AI seems to know when you're trying this and moves their works around to keep you from doing it.

    Pericles/Greece [22] (21+1) Pericles doesn't just get a bunch of culture from putting Acropoli in every city... he also gets a ton of GWAM points and that translates directly to tourism. I think the only leader I've ever had more GWAMs recruited with is Peter. Pericles also flies through the civic tree, meaning earlier access to policy cards that boost tourism to great works, earlier access to desirable wonders, and earlier access to environmentalism. Tourism is not a problem for him at all IMO.

    Catherine/France(BQ) [eliminated] (3-3)

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Eleanor/France [2]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22] (21+1)
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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  19. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    713
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Eleanor/France [0] ELIMINATED
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [7]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Voting again for as a tripartite defence of Matthias, Hojo, and Pericles. To keep up the interesting dialogue with @Jewelrunna , yes NP and SRs are good for tourism... but you really can't underplay Great Works as a valid and powerful source of tourism. The quicker you can get them up and running, the faster you can generate Tourism, which is important because it is a lifetime counter. I can get much faster Culture wins as Pericles, Hojo, and Matthias than I can some of the others on this list even though they don't "seem" to have Tourism bonuses, and that's because actually they do - 10 turns earlier Tourism in every City across 10 Cities is 100 City-turns of Tourism - that's a lot! This trio should stick around a while and so I'm batting for the lagging member. Definitely should be ahead of at the very least Tamar and Mansa Musa.

    Voting against Freleanor and incidentally eliminating here. The reasons are basically discussed already with respect to BQ Catherine, but IMO Freleanor is even worse because Catherine's spies at least can get money etc to contribute. Eleanor is actually pretty meh at Cultural Victories; she likes Great Works but not as a means to Cultural Victory but a supplemental form of offense.

    Agreeing Australia was eliminated too early. I wanted to come in and keep them going a bit, but was too late today.
     
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  20. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,657
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Hungary 4 (7-3)
    Except for the fact of being one of fan-fav civs, why is this guy still here, with the only tourism bonus of +3 per bath IF there is geothermal fisure in city?
    This building is a joke

    in opposite to:
    Film Studio. Come late? The same tech as seaside resorts (while noone is complaining they come too late) and eureka is having national park. Is it late?
    Unlike religious victory, you cannot always win tourism. Except rare cases there would always be at least one civ strong in culture (China,Persia, Greece, Kongo, Russia most commonly, but other civs often do well with culture as well) and you can do magic with many civs left, your progress will go so slowly, that you yould finally win other victory before. Those high culture civs will enter modern era fairly early, as well as civs with high science. poor them, because:
    Common city you would have that time will have:
    a) fully developed theater with all slots filled with great works: 21 tourism
    b) a world wonder, let it be 3 tourism
    c) national park. weak one is 16 tourism
    d) maybe 2 seasides resorts for a totakl of 8 tourism (usually far more)
    e) water park / EC with different tourism level (from 2 to 6 usually, it has too many factors)
    And this is not even a strong city. Film studio in such an example city gives at least 50 tourism! A single building! This is 16 floodplain sphinxes/ chemamulls / pairidaezas. This is 5 theming bonuses for museums
    You would have at least 10 "average cities". This is now 500 tourism from 10 building.
    You would have also at least one monster city (national museum, a wonder with GW slots, more resorts, more wonders, neighbourhood with SM, relics), where only film studio will give around 100 tourism, making a total of 200 tuorism city. Often more.
    And don't say it works against modern civs only. On deity there would be some and AIs will enter modern era anyway while you hit EoT 50+ times with other civs, even slow teching will advance.

    And now comes the funniest thing.
    How did it happen, that a leader with such a building (TR RR) was eliminated so early, only because he has more culture oriented alter ego and is suppesed to be diplooriented? (and the thing is even when you go with TR RR for diplovictory, you would usually accidentally win tourism before final voting). How dit TR RR with UB giving 50+ torism lost with Hungary with fantastic UB with situational +3 tourism?
    Teddy BM +1.
    Simply because America easily > Canada and Ethiopia, who are higher.
    Don't expect pre t150 CV though. But after t200, America is a tourism monster


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
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