1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GunsGermsandSteel

    GunsGermsandSteel Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    Messages:
    140
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Tamar/Georgia [1]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]

    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    22 (21+1) Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) There has already been a lot said about him. The only point I would like to make is that while everyone dismissed Film Studio the fact is that if he was in a culture war with someone like Greece he at least has a late age power card to play. I would also like to point out that the +5 combat strength on home continent is very handy for surviving the early game, especially at the higher difficulties.

    1 (4-3)Tamar/Georgia. While Georgia does have a few things going for them I feel like the must be at the bottom of this list currently. Personally I found them the be surprisingly interesting to play, so this isn't a 'Georgia sucks' downvote. Tourism from walls is nice but not necessarily that powerful. And comes into play a bit late. Other civs that have a bonus towards wonders and earlier districts are going to be earning great writers/artists sooner and start early tourism. I would likely be going for Religous/Diplomatic or maybe even domination before culture victory with them. I even think Mali has it better than Georgia because with their high income they can buy great works - though to be honest I haven't played Mali.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  2. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Messages:
    356
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1] (4-3) Early game is too hard for Mali. If you cannot get a Classical Golden Age your progress will be greatly hindered.

    Qin Shi Huang/China [25] (24+1) With Great Wall China is kinda OP. Even if you ban use of Great Wall you can still take advantage of the early wonders and use Apadana to gain control of most CS (that's the key thing about China, Apadana is not really worth it for other Civs) in a way comparable to Greece. The reason I upvote China is to play it in its full power require lots of unique strategy and many may be unaware and think it's mediocre.


    One thing that confuses me is that so many people seem to believe to win culture victory, you have to build a lot of Theater Squares and use Great Works. Well, to win science without Campus is a challenge, to win culture without Theater Square is not. Stop thinking like you are playing Civ V. Try win culture without TS at least once, it's not that hard. Great Work helps but it contributes at most to 1/3 of your tourism if you utilize other sources well. A production powerhouse can win culture just by using seaside resorts (and the relevant wonders).

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Tamar/Georgia [4]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Emmm... Every voting post reduces total score by 2, and when only one Civ left its sore is like 30. Current total is 356, so we can post about 160 times more, that's only 8 pages. No voting preference will change that. (Lol I just want to point out some logical fallacy. I'm not even a huge fan of Persia)

    What I wanted to say about BM Teddy is, he got some very good general bonus, and yeah it's fun to play (I saw a T161 no-campus SV with him). But culture wise he's not much stronger than the non-persona Teddy (it's like giving the old Teddy a free monument and a library in each city, yeah strong but that doesn't secure you a culture victory). If you spawn in rainforest then it's dull (yeah yeah I know Renya can save one rainforest city).

    Also speaking about Teddy. I don't agree with people's downvote of RR Teddy. RR Teddy shall be about 13 point at this point (i.e. better than those with a score < 13).

    Yeah as I said the T72 victory is really lucky and he knew the map. But a good player can win T80-ish without S/L or revealing the map.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
    8housesofelixir and enKage like this.
  3. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2020
    Messages:
    130
    Gender:
    Male
    Nobody upvoting Hungary is talking about geothermal baths for tourism. It's way too late and small a bonus to matter. Hungary's real strength for cultural victories lies in their 50% production to the theater square and theater square buildings. However, I voted them up yesterday and, at this point, their standing seems fair to me. I think only Mali, and arguably Rome (only good early culture) or Kongo (situationally strong) are worse.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13+1=14] Sure, non-theater square culture victories are possible, but a holy site and theater square centered approach is a strong, straightforward way to win culture victories for most civs. While great works may only be contributing ~1/3 of your tourism output at the end, they are generating that tourism over a longer period of the game, which means that they have more time to attract foreign tourists. The great works also boost your culture for getting to conservation and rock bands. Japan gets major bonuses to this playstyle with their half-priced theater squares and holy sites, which only get better adjacency as the game goes on through Meiji Restoration.

    Tamar/Georgia [1-3=Eliminated] Sorry, Tamar, your time has come. Georgia has some useful faith and tourism bonuses, but I think they are weaker on the whole than any of the remaining. They have no bonus to culture. Ultimately, you're talking about an extra 3 tourism and 8 faith per city with renaissance walls while in a golden age, production bonuses for walls, and, if you can manage to use it, the ability to declare a protectorate war for a temporary boost to faith. I rarely have issues earning golden ages in culture games, as earning great people is a good source of passive era score, as are extracting artifacts and constructing national parks.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [4]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Tamar/Georgia [0] Eliminated
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  4. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    373
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [18]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15] (18-3) seems to me she should be somewhere around Kongo and Khmer.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [5] (4+1) @enKage : besides that bath, he also has those discounted districts and especially those envoys.
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  5. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2017
    Messages:
    365
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [2]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Cyrus/Persia [19] (18 + 1): Persia's Pairidaeza is the most reliable, best source of tile appeal outside of any Wonders in the game. It will also be getting you more Culture reliably than the Sphinx or the Chateau, helping you move along the Civic tree more easily. It is the single best Tourism steroid in the entire game, and that by itself is enough to justify Persia as the best Culture Victory Civ in the game. If that isn't enough for you, then Satrapies helps you get another minor injection of Culture to help you move along the Civic Tree, and one extra free trade route is nice to help you spread your trade routes to other players without feeling like you're stretching yourself too thin. There is absolutely no justifiable way you can place Persia below Canada, Egypt, the Maori, or Ethiopia. The top five with little ambiguity should Catherine (Mag), Kristina, Qin, BM Teddy, and Cyrus.

    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [2] (5 - 3): Although I love Hungary, the Civ simply doesn't have enough bonuses towards Culture to justify him being in the running for too much longer. He gets half-off Theatre Squares and buildings provided you build the district across the river from the City Center, which is certainly nice to have. And the Thermal Bath can be a great source of Tourism, Amenities, and Production (for Wonders), but the Tourism and extra Amenities only come if your city has a workable Geothermal Fissure within it's borders. While Hungary does have a starting bias for Fissures, it can't be guaranteed that this bonus will be universally consistent in all your cities. And the envoys can be helpful if you're going to be playing for City-States that have tile improvements that boost Tourism, but that's also dependent All in all, Hungary is certainly capable for Culture Victories, but they're a bit of a diceroll for the Tourism bonus, making them too inconsistent to stay around for much longer.

    Once again on the subject of Pericles, most of his bonuses are just raw Culture yields, which is certainly a great bonus. But other than half-cost Theater Squares (which allows you to accrue Great People faster), he doesn't have anything that directly benefits Tourism. But you guys do realize you're still going to have Theater Squares in just about every city regardless of if they're half-cost or not, right? Pericles gets them faster, but those Great People aren't going to be the main source of your Tourism, especially after the nerfs to Great Writers; Seaside Resorts and National Parks are. Which Persia will make significantly better. Maybe he's better than Magnificence Catherine, but I can't be too positive because I don't have much experience with her myself. But the only leaders I personally think you can justify as better than Persia are Qin, Kristina, and BM Teddy. I still would rank Persia higher than them though.
     
  6. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    84
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [21] (20+1) Sphinges.
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [19]
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [2]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7] (10-3) Strong civ capable of culture and in the upper half now. But when in Rome, Legions chop Legions, which doesn't lead to tourism.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  7. fossar_

    fossar_ Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2020
    Messages:
    11
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [21]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20] 19 + 1
    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [Eliminated] 2 - 3

    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Kupe/Maori [20] 19 + 1: Mad national parks civ. You can save on builders early game because of value forests and late game that turns into tourism because they can be turned into national parks. One of the rare civs that Earth Goddess is actually a good idea from the fact they'll keep a lot of forests and have a lot of coastline which can provide a huge faith boost right when it's needed for a culture game when you start planting forests at conservation. Not being able to earn Great Writers does hurt but with all those builders you've not had to build early from the forest production bonus your charges to build seaside and ski resorts and any CS improvements you can get your hands on will be noticably more efficient. Marae Tourism comes later in the game but easily compensates for the lack of Writers IMO

    Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [Eliminated] 1 - 3: Bye bye Hungary, tbh you've done well to hang around this long. Direct tourism bonuses rarely amount to more than 10 TpT each game (i.e. completely irrelevant). No other bonuses which are particularly relevant to a tourism game. Since I'm eliminating you though you deserve a last run-through of all bonuses. River district production: Sure this can help you build the odd theatre square faster but it's not always going to be the best choice. This is also completely neutral on what victory type it supports. Huszár: Tbf there's a weak link since diplomacy is important in culture games so strength from alliances is good but its tenuous. Thermal Bath: Amenities are weak enough that theres no reason to build any more EC's than you need to and you're better off placing for getting cities in range than for the measly 3 Tourism. The production is decentralised so it doesn't even help particularly with wonders. I don't consider this worth much at all for CV. Raven King: This bonus is completely military there is virtually zero benefit to a culture game from it, especially since we're making an effort to disregard killing people as a bonus. The envoys are worth much less than normal envoys do to their inefficiency by being defensive envoys, if no-one else decides to go for that CS they were a waste past 6, if you still get overtaken you can't use the bonus to get suze back. Its pretty clearly designed to stop the levied army getting stolen off you rather than a long term building up envoys strategy.

    Edit: @hhhhhh thanks for pointing that out, you're right. Updated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  8. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2018
    Messages:
    624
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    @Jewelrunna I really think you're kinda ignoring how powerful the Sphinx is now and it's competitive with the pairidaeza. Let's compare their pros/cons. Both are the stats for Gathering Storm.

    Pairidaeza
    +1 Culture
    +1 Culture for every adjacent Holy Site and Theater Square
    +1 Culture (with Diplomatic Service)
    +2 Gold
    +2 Appeal
    +1 Gold for every adjacent Commercial Hub and City Center

    Restrictions: Cannot be built on Tundra or Snow tiles or adjacent to another Pairidaeza.

    Sphinx
    +1 Culture
    +1 additional Culture if built on Floodplains
    +1 additional Culture (with Natural History)
    +2 Appeal
    +1 Faith
    +2 additional Faith if placed next to a Wonder

    Restrictions: Cannot be built on Snow or Snow Hills tiles.

    First, let's look at culture and tourism. Both have a base of +1 C/T. If you're Persia, you'll want to build next to Theatre Squares and Holy Sites, giving you a total of +2 C/T now. For Egypt, you need Floodplains to get your +2 C/T. Persia has the advantage of not being so map reliant. As long as you have the districts, you can place your gardens around them for the bonus. You can also get an extra +1 C/T if there's a second theatre square or holy site next to it. Conversely, Egypt doesn't need to have the districts first, but you need the Floodplains. As Egypt, you'll want to be settling on rivers and Floodplains anyways, but I do concede that you are at the mercy of the map.

    Next, let's look at the extra +1 C/T that comes midgame. Persia gets it at Diplomatic Service (Renaissance) and Egypt at Natural History (Industrial). That's a whole era earlier. It's not a huge difference, but it's a clear advantage for Persia.

    Finally, let's look at Appeal and Restrictions. Both Pairidaezas and Sphinxes grant +2 appeal. This is a fantastic ability, as you have mentioned you can use it to place adjacent to national parks and seaside resorts. However, Egypt has a huge advantage to restrictions. Pairidaezas cannot be built next to each other, while sphinxes can. This means you can spam more Sphinxes than pairidaezas around parks and resorts, and make the adjacent appeal higher. Neither UI can be built on snow, but Sphinxes can be built on tundra whereas pairidaezas cannot. Tundra forests are excellent tiles for national parks.

    Prior to Gathering Storm, the pairidaeza was the runaway best cultural UI in the game. The devs however have given the Sphinx some serious buffs. If you want to compare raw culture/tourism output, I will admit the pairidaeza edges out the Sphinx, as it is less map dependent, gets the extra +1 C/T an era earlier, and with careful planning, you can get +4/+5 pairidaezas. I'll give Persia the win on that. But if you're using the UI to boost resorts and parks, the Sphinx is the clear winner since they can be built adjacent to each other and also in tundra.

    Anyways on to the votes!

    Egypt [22] (21+1) See above.

    Jayavarman/Khmer [12] (15-3) You can get quick victories with them, but it takes a lot of luck, getting the right beliefs, and Kandy. Just not consistent enough to compete anymore.

    @hhhhhh I believe these corrected scores are ok now.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
    Icicle, Deadly Dog, Weraptor and 5 others like this.
  9. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    704
    Corrected scores:

    If you are voting please hit REFRESH to make sure you are replying to the most recent scores.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  10. Dantesedge

    Dantesedge Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2020
    Messages:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    I've never been thrilled with Cleopatra/Egypt but @Kmart_Elvis has made several arguments to convince me otherwise. Bravo! I was going to down vote but you convinced me otherwise.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15] (14+1) My first up vote for a civ I've already up voted before! I'm surprised at the attacks on Hojo - I consider him to be Top 10 and I'll fight for him (kind of... I still won't up vote twice in a row yet). Half off TS and HS is very good (not +50% like Matthias) and he can city plan the heck out of these things to make strong yields. Strong cultural yields equals a faster path to the tourism modifiers in the end game. Strong HS equals lots of faith for NP's and rock bands. Add on to that strong IZ's for wonder and building production! What's not to love here for a cultural game?

    Trajan/Rome [4] (7-3) He has one of the best cultural starts in the game... and then slows down. Once the momentum ceases, Trajan doesn't have much else in his kit. Strong culture civ, but he is now the weakest on this list.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [4]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Deadly Dog and Kmart_Elvis like this.
  11. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Rome (4+1) A strong start matters far more than late game bonuses in winning games, and starts don't get stronger than this.
    Khmer (12-3) A growth focused civ in a game that doesn't reward growth. Their relic bonus has potential, but it's dependent on finding a cooperative rival to kill all your missionaries in theological combat, instead of just ignoring them or stomping on them militarily.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [17]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [9]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [5]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    hhhhhh likes this.
  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,850
    Gender:
    Male
    Rome [6] (5+1) First dibs on Autocracy, Colosseum, Oracle and probably to the actual theater square. Only Gorgo actually matches, and you need some luck to barbs. Oligarchy can be useful in emergencies
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14] 17-3 Is not better than Japan or Greece. Is it because people just forgot about them?
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [9]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]

    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  13. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    496
    Upvote Peter - I usually don't play the faith game for culture, but instead rely on basically theaters only to get that early culture win. But if you are playing holy sites first, with dance of the aurora and work ethic, Peter's lavras are pretty excellent dual faith and great works generators.

    Downvote - Jayavarman. Not a huge fan of relic-based tourism strategies (though it's time to play them again, I suppose). More straight-forward ways to convert faith into tourism.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [6] [9-3]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [18]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25] [24+1]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [6]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Edit - fixed Rome's score
     
  14. VanTao

    VanTao Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [6]
    Kristina/Sweden [24]
    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15] (18-1) - You have to get the GP first before their bonus kicks in. Rainforest start may be good for growth and production, but it slows down being able to place districts right away. Having to go for Bronze Working can mess up optimizing the district discount mechanism, slowing down a Culture win. Slower movement means it takes longer to settle early cities, to get improvements up, etc. A good Culture civ, sure, but Brazil has its flaws. I also think Rome is better and can win a Culture game faster.
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7] (6 +1) - The early Culture and the removal of the opportunity cost of having to build / buy a Monument is much, MUCH stronger than a lot of people realize. Rome will get to all the key early civics first and often be able to get the first 4 Classical GWs (if Russia is not in the game). Who cares if they don’t have UI that generate Culture at Flight when they have a 9K+ Tourism cushion with each civ from early GWoWs and can build Seaside reports / National Parks / etc. 30+ turns earlier than other civs. See below for detailed explanation.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Detailed Rome explanation (Warning - LONG). Above you should be an adequate tldr if you just want to skip.

    Though I recognize that Rome is probably going to lose out to more obvious Culture civs likes Sweden or Kongo, I’m going to make the argument that Rome is definitely a top tier Culture civ, even if they don’t have bonuses that initially look like they contribute directly to a Culture win (I’m a firm believer they are a Top 5 overall civ). In fact, they can get some of the fastest Culture wins, if you know how to optimize their abilities and Civics / build order in the early-to-mid game. If the point of the game is to win before anyone else can, who cares if the Film Studio doubles your Tourism if you already lost the game before you can build enough of them to matter.

    I have always believed that Trajan’s Column is one of the best abilities in the game, even if it is also one of the most boring. It removes the opportunity cost of building or buying a Monument. This is no small matter. I’ve seen it occasionally mentioned over the years that the free Monuments aren’t that great because they are only 60 Production / 240 Gold each. “I can just buy a Monument”. That may be true mid-to-late game. In the early game, this Production / Gold is critical. Instead of putting it towards a Monument, you put it towards military units or builders / settlers. This a strong advantage.

    Furthermore, the culture from the free Monuments PROPELS you through the early civics. All else being equal, you will get to Craftsmanship (for Agoge), Early Empire (for Colonization and usually your first governor promotion, which should almost always go towards Magnus), and Political Philosophy (for Classical Republic, or Oligarchy if you want to do a little early warring to get more cities before switching to a more peaceful build required by a Culture win) before any other civ, in addition to always getting to Code and Laws in 7 turns, i.e. - normally twice as fast as other civs (normally means you can plug in Urban Planning right away, though God King is a good option now to try for an early Pantheon given the nerf to City State first envoy; haven’t tested it as much, given Urban Planning was almost always the better option previously). I have found myself 25-30 turns ahead of where I would be development wise playing as another civ during the early game with an army twice as large. For example, I am at Political Philosophy around turn 40-45 when it normally takes me around turn 60-70.

    The early Culture from Turn 1, which increases with each new city you found, also means Rome is building its domestic tourists right away, increasing the amount of Tourists needed by other civs trying for their own Culture win.

    Now here’s why getting early Agoge and Colonzation is important and the free Monuments make Rome one of the best Culture civs. During the early game (first 60-70 turns) you should be making military units and Settlers, with the odd builder here and there. The settlers are obvious because you want more cities. More cities = more yields in general for all civs, but with Rome this is enhanced because you get +2 Culture per turn other civs don’t (as well as technically saving on 60 Production / 240 Gold). The military units are important because even if you don’t want to use them to capture other cities and instead try for a peaceful Culture win (however, that is not optimizing Rome’s bonus), you run the risk of being attacked (more so at higher difficulties). With the Culture victory path, a lot of players focus too much on building infrastructure in the early game. “Why build an army when I can build the Oracle?”. Well, if you’re my neighbor and I am Rome, I’m going to take that city with the Oracle you were kind enough to build for me.

    Because Rome gets the Production cards for these earlier than any other other civ (all else being equal), they will be pumping out these units sooner. In particular, once you gain access to both, you should be using both at the same time, forgoing Urban Planning, and only producing these type of units. Don’t worry about Districts yet, as you should still be beelining for Drama & Poetry (more on this below). In fact, use the gold you’ve saved from not buying a Monument to buy a builder to chop more military units or a settler in your Magnus city. This how you maximize Rome’s bonuses.

    Not only will you be getting getting Settlers to found your own cities (and more free Monuments), you will often have a larger army than your nearest neighbor (or a matching army on Deity). This means you might be able to capture 2 - 6 additional cities, depending on the situation (and game difficulty). While the general rule of thumb is you should try to have a city for every 10-15 turns that passes in the early game, as Rome, I found that I have 1.5 - 2 cities at the same rate. More cities means more overall yields and more locations to place districts early, especially Theater Squares, locking their price.

    Speaking of Theater Squares, most importantly for a fast Culture win as a Rome, you can prioritize getting Drama & Poetry with the Culture from the free Monuments by around Turn 35 to build TS before almost anyone else can. This should not be underestimated. I’ve played a lot of games as Rome, Japan, and Greece. Though Japan and Greece can build TS in 50% of the time, because Rome can get there before Japan and Greece - Pericles (their 5% Culture per suzerainty won’t be in effect yet), on average I’ve found that a Rome can finish its first 3-5 TS before either, especially if you beeline TS and lock their price in cheap (Greece - Gorgo can occasionally match culture, but it’s more variable and potentially riskier at higher difficulties, given the advantages the AI has in combat during the early game on Deity ... you might find yourself losing units in trying to get that Culture). This means Rome is getting Tourism from Great Works of Writing before anyone else can and will often get most, if not all, of the first 4 Great Writers that cost 60 GPP.

    (The key hurdle to this is if you get Russia in your game, as they’ll tend to get the first and maybe even the second Great Writer. Though you won’t get the benefit of having all four 60 GPP Great Writers, you’ll still be getting Tourism faster than early civs. Even a Russia will only have room for one Great Work of Writing initially while you will have more spots by prioritizing TS and Amphitheaters.)

    Yes, Great Works of Writing were nerfed compared to Vanilla and R&F. However, they are still some of the earliest source of Tourism. Additionally, they provide even more Culture yields, something most other early sources of Tourism don’t (save for the occasional Wonder, i.e. - Pyramids). This means you are adding to your defense against another civ’s Tourism.

    Once you get your 3-5 TS, you can then build other districts, often taking advantage of the district discount mechanism, if you haven’t captured other cities with Campus or Holy Site districts already.

    Now, some people might think this will put you behind in Science, given that you are prioritizing TS over Campuses. However, remember that Rome is swimming in early Culture. As mentioned earlier, they can get the TS super early, often around Turn 35 if beelined correctly and you’ve managed to settle 2 additional cities in the meantime. Thus, you really aren’t that far behind building Campuses. In fact, if you wait for the 3-5 TS you are building to finish, you can use the district discount mechanism to build them cheaply. Additionally, you can always just use your larger army to capture a city with a Campus.

    If you do the above, you will have snowballed to the lead as Rome. This means you can get the key late game civics and techs that help with a Culture win earlier than all other civs as well, even out competing civs who start getting monster yields in the mid-to late game.

    I haven’t even mentioned the benefit of the free roads. It removes the opportunity cost of deciding whether you want a Domestic trade route to get internal roads in your empire. Instead, you can start trading with other civs right away, boosting your Tourism from the early GWoWs, which you should have already gotten by the time you get your 2nd or 3rd GW, if you beelined TS properly.

    Now, if you are worried that sending international trade routes means your cities won’t grow as fast, don’t worry, you have Baths to work around that problem. The increased housing compensates to to an extent for the Food from domestic trade routes. Additionally, the Baths normally allow to Rome have larger cities the mid-to-late game, allowing you to be more productive. The +2 adjacency to IZs is also helpful, and though not to the extent of Germany, Japan, or the Netherlands, means Rome can actually have fairly high Production cities. This is helped by the fact that Baths are dirt cheap.

    Ironically, Rome’s arguably most iconic bonus (and their second most powerful after the free Monuments), the Legion, is admittedly the least useful for a Culture win. Though it should absolutely be used to capture cities in the early game (as mentioned earlier, more cities = more yields), after Classical, you shouldn’t be doing too much warring, even though Legions are often still usable in Medieval and sometimes early Renaissance. Legions are more useful if you are going Domination or even Science (to harass other civs so that they can’t just boom).

    Recognizing that this is long, hopefully this explains why I think Rome is a strong contender for a Culture victory, given that sometimes just saying “Early culture means Rome can snowball” leaves out a lot of details on just how powerful that simple phrase actually is.
     
  15. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

    Joined:
    May 9, 2020
    Messages:
    230
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [7] (6 + 1)
    I still think that reliquaries strategy for CV can be devastating, even without St Basil Cathedral.

    Kristina/Sweden [21] (24 - 3)
    Pre-emptive downvote for Kristina. Most of her abilities are "win-more" for CV.
    She wants to do many things early game; snag great library and the apadana, and yet on the other hand, that would delay your theatre squares in key cities.
    I think this could be the main weakness of Kristina, wanting to build too many things at one time.
    As for open-air museum, yes it is great, but it unlocks mid - late stage of the game which my only complain is that it is a little too late, and Kristina has to emphasis alot on culture just to get to that stage of the game.
    Top 10 material, but I think currently ranked a little too high.

    Kupe/Maori [20]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  16. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2016
    Messages:
    3,323
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [22]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [7]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21][20+1] Can sometimes depend on map and CS luck, but things only have to go half right for them to be able to set up a CV early, and unharassed.
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19] [22-3]Another pre-emptive downvote. Probably top 10, but still currently ranked too high because of their weak start. They take a while to roll, but too long to snowball.
     
  17. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    145
    Egypt [19] In the spirit of downvoting civs we think are too high. I’ve never understood why people like Egypt, in my view the bonuses are very underwhelming. +15% production is not significant, and only applies to rivers; the extra gold from trade routes is useful for a brief period at the start of the game, then rapidly becomes irrelevant as other sources of gold emerge; and this leaves the Sphinx, which is situationally helpful in creating National Parks or Seaside Resorts but is really, really nothing special. Yet she is being portrayed as a cultural powerhouse, somehow? An underwhelming bag of tricks for an underwhelming civ.

    Gorgo [16] Following on from what @VanTao said about Rome, a lot of you are underestimating the importance of raw culture generation. You actually need to *earn* culture in order to win a tourism victory: you can have all the fancy unique improvements or wonder-based strategies or appeal-raising mechanisms, whatever, but it means nothing unless until reached the important Civics. Like Trajan, Gorgo is swimming in culture; so she reaches all the checkpoints first; therefore, she wins faster. It’s very simple really. Same principle for Pericles, BM Teddy, Japan, I guess Maori: they don’t have ‘stand-out’ boosts to tourism like an obvious Sphinx or Hockey Rink, but that doesn’t matter, because they still win faster by virtue of getting everything first.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19] (22-3)
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [16] (15+1)
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [7]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
  18. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Gender:
    Male
    Mansa Musa/Mali [-2] (1-3) Eliminated -- can have a hard time in the early game, cannot build many wonders and probably needs to abuse reina for those theatre squares. Also probably prefers to first claim sugubas and holy sites.
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20] (19+1) I have already mentioned why I consider Egypt to be an excellent cultural civ, but the +2 appeal sphinxes perhaps stand out the most.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [23]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [16]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [7]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
  19. Lamington

    Lamington Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2019
    Messages:
    20
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20] Edited Cleo’s score.
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [16]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [4]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [8]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]

    Jayavarman/Khmer [4] If Poland has been eliminated from the relic tourism game, then it’s getting close for Jayavarman to go too. His relic generation is not nearly as difficult to control as Poland’s, but still relies on having nearby religious civs to ‘matyr’ your missionaries, which does incur some opportunity cost.

    Trajan/Rome [8] (7+1) I like some of the arguments made earlier, but agree the early culture generation is potent to see you through the game.
     
  20. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Messages:
    166
    Gender:
    Male
    Jayavarman/Khmer [1] (4-3) Yeah, he stands out quite clearly as the worst of the options remaining. The fact that his missionaries can't attack always struck me as weird, it means you're left sitting there waiting for the AI to wake up and kill you. Sometimes they don't.

    Gorgo/Greece [17] (16+1) Agreed that the importance of culture generation is being lost in the discourse here. Gorgo hits the early beats earlier than anyone else, with the possible exception of Trajan. That means earlier theatre squares, earlier tier 2 government, earlier museums, and now your tourism victory is practically complete. I'd much rather have Gorgo than Kristina, who gets all these incentives for great works but receives no help with culture or GPP, and I'd much rather have Gorgo than Cleopatra, who gets a whole bunch of nothing.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17] (16+1)
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Jayavarman/Khmer [1] (4-3)
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [8]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page