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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Jayavarman/Khmer [Eliminated] 1-3 A strategy that relies on others killing your missionaries with religious units only gets you this far and no more
    Trajan/Rome [9] 8+1 I was already a Rome believer but the excellent post from @VanTao convinced me that I still rated them too low


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [9]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  2. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    713
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [20]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]

    I agree with @VanTao's post completely and think people are seriously underrating the value of early culture and of advantages like being able to get up Monuments,Theatre Squares and associated districts early. I'd not considered Trajan in the same way as Matthias, Hojo, and Pericles, but his advantages do come in a rather similar way and I think a really powerful way at that. There's too much focus being put in late bloomers like Kristina. However, I'm most perplexed by the fact Qin Shi Huang is starting to turn into a little bit of a runaway. The Great Wall is obviously less good than Cyrus' and Cleopatra's UI, and also is worse than a lot of the City-State UIs that help with tourism (which are being underlooked here; you can effectively 'buy' Cyrus' and Cleopatra's UIs, or at least almost-as-good equivalents to them, from City-States, which I think is causing some people to overrate these two as well). Being able to spam Wonders is good, but actually Wonders don't produce that much tourism and Qin Shi Huang isn't going to reach key wonders as fast as Trajan, Hojo, Pericles, Gorgo, or really anyone with really strong early Culture. I'm very confused as to why he's ahead of Pericles, Peter, and MagCath.

    It's interesting because we're starting to see a real divergence now in opinions I think between people who value early Culture and those who value late Tourism.
     
  3. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Trajan: Here we have a classic case of overestimating a convenient but underwhelming "strong" generalists start and valuing culture for the wrong reasons.

    Not only has power creep steadily and consistently lowered the value of a free monuments, but let's also not forget that monuments are one of the most cost effictive buildings in the entire game... yes, anyone can build or buy them quickly and Rome gets to do what, build an extra warrior or archer instead? Without Agoge that's less efficient than it seems. Build a settler? Less efficient without Colonization. Builder? Without Ilkum.

    It also only applies +2 culture until you get another city up, and so on and so forth. The culture gains start out slow and steady, and never change from that course. Slow and steady where other Civs are pulling back a slingshot.

    Yeah, it's still convenient, but it's rapidly made up for by other civs who have also have similarly strong starts that may also be less generalist and instead focused more on culture (and infinitely more importantly, on Tourism), and so rocket ahead when the slingshot is released.

    BM Teddy, for instance, will often have more culture than Trajan ever will from turn 1 on. Trajan can start building Theater Squares, sure, but Pericles (and Hojo, who I begrudgingly bring up but think is also overrated) gets them for half price, and higher adjacency. So any production "lost" building a monument is recovered by a half-priced Theater Square, and any culture lead taken by Trajan is lost when Theaters are completed, even if Trajan makes them too. Nevermind that Pericles gets a free Wildcard starting with Chiefdom and so can run multiple production-saving policies at the same time and rocket past Trajan in output after about only ten turns of Trajan being ahead. For China, it's literally like he's running Ilkum from turn 1, and that value increases until you get to Feudalism.

    Then there are the other less direct comparisons but with devastating results none the less: High faith starts pay off more than Culture after the first Golden Age when Monumentality kicks in and civs expand faster than Rome could ever hope (Russia, Ethiopia, and RIP Mali). Nevermind if anyone has high adjacency Holy Sites paired with Work Ethic, bye bye to any production lead Rome may have had.

    I'm not going to exposit on every other Civ remaining but I do need to return to the topic of Culture as an independent value. Yes it gets you to important Civics that unlock improvements that generate Tourism, but Rome has exactly zero abilities to directly increase that Tourism. Anyone with high Faith will be spitting out more Parks and Rock Bands (and early on, potentially a Holy City with Tourism bolstered by a shared religion to nearby neighbors, maybe even some Relics). Others have unique improvements that themselves generate Tourism that Rome can never get, or that increase the amount of Tourism of Parks and Resorts to levels that Rome can never reach.


    To be perfect clear: Culture as an independent , lifetime metric does exactly nothing to win a Culture Victory. It generates Domestic Tourism which only helps you *not lose*. It is entirely defensive. It's the equivalent of building walls to win a Domination Victory.

    What actually matters is Foreign Tourism. That's the Army that wins the Domination Victory. It's the weapon Rome doesn't have any advantage in, but that most other Civs remaining do.


    Edir: Lest we also forget, a Culture Victory is a moving goalpost. No matter that Trajan *might* get to things like Museums faster than *some* civs (certainly not all, like Greece or Japan). But very importantly, by the time Trajan gets there, even if he gets there quickly, other civs have increased their own culture output far faster than Trajan has converted his culture into Foreign Tourism. Trajan had no gimmick to win an early Culture Victory (ie Relics). This is analogous to, say, a light cavalry rush vs Walls. So long as there's at least one even modestly performing culture civ opposing him, Trajan will not cross the finish line before the finish line moves farther (and farther) away. The game will reach Radio, and the competition will get their Tourism boosts that Trajan doesn't have and start actively chipping away at Trajan's own domestic tourists. It will likely reach Conservation, and so Trajan will feel the force of overwhelming competitor's faith producing Parks against his own extremely underwhelming faith production. Nevermind that the finishing stages of most Culture games involve Rock Bands, where Trajan will finally succumb, his meager faith reserves long since depleted.



    Updoot: Cleopatra. The Sphinx is better than the Pairidaeza, period. The quadruple threat of Tourism, Appeal, Spammability, and Faith puts Cleo deservedly miles ahead and frankly there's no reason to bother downvoting deserving leaders.



    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [21]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [16]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
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  4. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Kongo: These used to be my favourite culture civ by a country mile, but Gathering Storm in particular was not kind to them. Faith is now hugely important to a culture victory, and great works count for significantly less. Kongo more than anyone else has to jump through a roundabout set of loops to have enough faith to stay competitive, to the point where I think he's now more of a dom civ that uses artefacts and art to boost production... I really hope he gets a rework as part of NFP as time has not been kind to poor old Mvemba...

    Wilfred: Being able to turn money into national parks is a big deal especially as culture victory is a lot slower than it was pre-GS (niche strategies aside)

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [21]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  5. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
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    Clearly, this is where the first big difference of opinion is opening up. Poster two above is a great example of the flawed “culture does nothing for tourism” argument. Yes: culture does huge amounts for tourism, because with a massive culture output you get to museums and naturalists and democracy and rock bands faster than the AI is able to build their defensive output. You don’t *need* paradise gardens or sphinxes or ice hockey to win a tourism game: but you *do* need to reach these civics in a good time.

    im picking on Cleopatra because I see her as clearly the weakest civ generally: what in her design is going to get you to naturalists or rock bands fast enough to stop the AI building up defence? A minor bonus to theatre squares next to rivers? Not very impressive. And I’m upvoting Pericles because he is clearly the king of culture generation. Pericles will reach museums and naturalists and rock bands so fast, the AI won’t know what hit it. Compare that those with little/no bonuses to culture generation, like Cleo or Gitarja or Wilfrid or Christina, and it’s obvious who’s going to get the faster victory.

    So TL;DR: i don’t have much time for the whole “this Civ has lots of culture but ‘no tourism’” line of argument. Culture gets you to the most important tourism milestones faster than the AI, and that is key.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18] (21-3)
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [23] (22+1)
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Trajan/Rome [7]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
    CrabHelmet likes this.
  6. Francel

    Francel Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    195
    Gender:
    Female
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23] (22+1) - Parks and antiquities is better than Rome's free monuments. Maybe if you start in flood plains it won't be helpful, but are you really going to play a flood plains/jungle start as bull moose Teddy? There are ways of boosting the appeal in your cities, even early on. The finance governor helps in particular. Moreover, you can still build or buy monuments to add to this benefit. Thus, it is highly possible to get the ball rolling on theater squares before Rome. Furthermore, America has a unique building that boosts tourism.
    Trajan/Rome [4] (7-3) - Lots of excellent contenders on this list. I admit Rome is my least favorite civ - I find it so boring, even if it's powerful. I guess I just don't see an extra 2 culture per city as especially strong, despite the well-articulated arguments to the contrary. The rest of his stuff - the little bit of gold, the legion, and the bath - don't strike me as top tier for culture victory.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  7. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

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    Peter/Russia +1: GS was kind to him. Already a very strong contender for a CV, and with strong faith now being a requirement (as well as reliably able to get work ethic for early wonders and often monumentality for fast expansions too), just steamrolls into top 5 for me.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan -3: I stand by my dislike for Hojo. Yes he can build Theatres and Holy Sites faster, and both are important to a CV, but he has nothing else going for him really to get the ball rolling. The adjacency bonus kicks in too late to jumpstart his culture and faith. He is more of an allrounder primarily, and way too overrated for this particular victory. He needs to go.



    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [15]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [4]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  8. kryat

    kryat King

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    Qin Shi Huang/China [23] (22+1)
    There’s strong arguments for everyone left on this list. I’m upvoting China for a few reasons. 1) The Great Wall is an incredible culture and tourism source. In the whole culture/tourism debate, Qin Shi Huang doesn’t have to pick sides. It gives vast amounts of both. If it gave it pre-flight, it’d be better. 2) There’s an interesting mechanic with wonders that’s been somewhat missed in the discussion so far. Wonders are a pretty weak source of tourism, giving +2 per turn. But then, they give an extra +1 per era standing. This gives extra strength to wonders built early, which happens to be Chinas specialty. This means you may have accumulated ~500 lifetime tourism per Ancient/Classical wonder by the modern era. 3) Extra builder charges indirectly translates to faster theater districts or holy sites. 4) 25% stronger inspirations is that many turns shaved off in culture you didn’t have to work for.


    Pedro/Brazil [12] (15-3)
    Pedro has weaker arguments remaining. Cheaper great people is nice, but it has diminishing returns as you run out of space to put things (I have similar complaints about Peter). Extra culture adjacency is nice, but not game changing, since tourism isn’t directly derived from raw culture (Again, it helps, but the rest of the contenders have pretty strong raw culture games too). And the biggest problem is patterns. Due to the way Amazon works, you want to spread out your districts in their own little rainforest bubbles. This runs you out of space very fast, and may not leave room for parks later. You are always tempted to sabotage your own adjacencies as Pedro.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [21]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [12]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [4]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  9. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Some posters are being critical of "late tourism bonuses", but I don't necessarily agree. I don't claim to be a great player or anything - I can almost always win on deity, but maybe not as efficiently as some of you (but I don't really try to be all that efficient, to be fair) - but early tourism seems overvalued to me simply because on higher difficulty the AI has a huge advantage in that area. Unless I'm playing as China, most of the ancient and classical wonders are going to go to the AI as I'm focused on just trying to get my empire up and running. Unless I'm playing as someone with an inherent advantage in culture generation, on higher levels the AI is almost always going to beat me to theater squares and early great writers. If I manage to snag some early tourism either through a few wonders, writings, or a lucky relic or two it's pretty much guaranteed to be less than what other AI are getting at that point in the game. For me, the turning point tends to comes a few eras later - now I've got all my cities set up and have the research, culture, and production to start pullling ahead of these AI. It's all about playing catch up and then overtaking them, and I find those mid-to-late game boosts like open air museums, national parks, rock hewn churches, and hockey rinks to be very helpful in doing that. These help me turn a tourism deficit into a lead of hundreds. Maybe a lot of you don't need that late of a boost, but they definitely make a difference.

    Gitarja/Indonesia [11] (14-3) She has the Kampung and not much else. Nothing to help with getting GWAMs, nothing to help get through the culture tree, a tiny adjacency bonus to theater squares, nothing to help get desirable city states... she needs a lot of coastal space to hang in the cultural game, IMO, and so she needs some help from the map generator as well. I think she's a step behind most left on this list.

    Kristina/Sweden [22] (21+1) I think we're getting to the point where people are going to start downplaying her ability to auto-theme museums... don't buy it. Sometimes it's literally impossible. She gets a huge boost to tourism from that, plus she gets the open air museum as well. She can theme artifacts just as easily as great works of art, so even if you can't keep up in great point generation you can take advantage of her bonus.

    One small thing to point out with Greece - don't forget they get an extra wildcard slot. Early on, that great writer card = two undeveloped theater squares someone else needs to build to keep up in the race for early great writers.

    Also, as far as the Pairidaeza/Sphinx debate is concerned... might I encourage you to consider a third party? The rock hewn church is far easier to get maximum yields from, will give you more tourism than either of the others at flight, can be built in tundra, also grants appeal (though only +1), and will have you swimming in enough faith to open up all kinds of possibilities.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11] (14-3)
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [22] (21+1)
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [12]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [4]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  10. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

    Joined:
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    Let's review sources of tourism. Did I miss any?

    Great Works (and relics) - Inarguably the strongest pre-writing nerf and rock bands, fastest culture victories were all based on them (generally with Pericles). Now not as dominant.
    Pros: Come on the earliest, have a number of multipliers (theming, policy cards, reliquaries for relics)
    Cons: Relative expensive to obtain and limited

    Tile Improvements (Culture-based, Kampung, Colassal Heads)
    Pros: Can be very spammable, especially late game where you can cover everything you can
    Cons: Late (require flight), no multipliers, vary in strenght

    Appeal-based (Seaside Resorts, National Parks)
    Pros: Tile Appeal has no upward limit so you can get some crazy numbers with stacking
    Cons: More limited placement rules. Limited multipliers - Seaside Resorts have Christ the Redeemer. National Parks not much*. I love making national parks but wish that had a multiplier (even if just given to Teddy) to make them stronger.

    Rock Bands
    Pros: Can generate huge amounts of direct tourism with no investment besides faith
    Cons: RNG. Can be blocked with a policy cards. I personally find them sort of cheesy.

    Wonders
    Pros: Can have extremely powerful effects besides tourism
    Cons: Very minimal tourism for the production. Not worth building for tourism alone.

    Religion
    Pros: Your holy site gets direct tourism from your spread. General tourism multiplier for same religion.
    Cons: Useful as a multiplier (like trade routes and open borders), but less of a direct tourism boost on it's own imho.

    I don't know much about Mag Cat's project, and don't plan on upvoting or downvoting her unless it's one of the final two.

    *Afaik, National Parks can only be multiplied by the Golden Gate Bridge (which is city specific), or 'Wish you were here' (which comes pretty late, I often win before it). I'm absolutely someone who loves building wonders and national parks despite the fact I know they are not necessarily the most efficient way of winning.

    Having listed this out, for this round I'm going to go with:

    Peter/Russia [27] 26+1 Significant Great Person and faith generation thanks to the Lavra for Great Works, Naturalists, Rock Bands, and possibly Religion. Tundra is one of the best spots for National Parks.

    Trajan/Rome [1] 4-3 - I agree one of the best 'generalists' with his free monuments and trade acceleration, but time to go.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [21]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [12]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [27]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [1]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  11. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

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    Only saw this elimination thread now, so here are just a few thoughts on why I think reliquaries strategies are consistently the fastest. If you are not interested in that discussion just skip to the bold part.

    In my personal experience the fastest culture victories are all won by reliquaries strategies (even without Kandy/Yerevan or early tribal village relic), supported by great works (+ national parks and rock bands if the game even lasts this long). I'm not counting Mag Catherine, since I have not yet had a chance to play her. A good (no Kandy or early Relic) culture victory with a good civ can often be won before T150 unless you have a civ with crazy high culture generation. Those games are usually won way before I could reach flight (or seaside resorts or computers). And with Kandy even sub 120 CVs are possible with the right civ. I’ve won games with Sweden, China and Khmer before I even reached conservation.

    And those reliquaries strategies are also very reliable. Mont St. Michel is a wonder the AI does not prioritize very highly and as long as you somewhat beeline it and chop it out with Magnus (I usually settle a city specifically for Mont St. Michel and another for St. Basil’s). I don’t remember ever losing out on those wonders when going for this strategy.

    With reliquaries each relic provides up to 24 tourism (more than an average National Park). Sure, it is halved against civs following a different religion but that is still at least 12 tourism very early in the game. Then at enlightenment it gets halved again to 6 against some civs, but you can always build Cristo. But by the time the AI reaches enlightenment I have often almost won the game. The other big upside of a reliquaries strategy is the massive amount of faith you are generating. That faith can be used early on for massive settler spam during a monumentality golden age and later on for naturalists and rock bands. It is not unusual to have 400/500+ faith by T120-T130.

    So any civ with high faith generation or early strong culture generation (faster temples and Mahabodi: you might get lucky with a few martyr promotion and if not you can still send those Apostles into enemy territory to lose enough health you can immediately suicide them once you finish Mont St. Michel) and more importantly earlier Mont St. Michel (and St. Basil’s) will be my pick for top cultural civs.

    Also, one more thing, for reliquaries strategies you definitely want missionary zeal and you might even consider a renaissance exodus golden age for faster apostle movement. The extra movement makes it really easy to hunt down enemy religious units and you can quickly travel into enemy territory so you don’t lose religious pressure in your cities.

    One more note on the Khmer. Their big strength is not really that missionaries can generate Relics as the AI reaches apostles too late and often doesn’t use them to kill your missionaries, but the extra relic slot on their temple, as this allows you to get away with a lot less cities to reach the same amount of relics.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13] (12+1): Really surprised that Japan currently sits so low. They are definitely top 10 and very strong contender for top 5. Half price on the 2 most important districts for culture victories (holy sites and theater squares) is just too good. You want those districts in every city anyway and with Meiji Restauration they also get a consistent high adjacency on all of them. And with 2 (3 if you count encampments) half price districts they have a very easy time to get the district discount on multiple other districts (mainly trade districts for the +25% trade route modifier).

    Kupe/Maori [18] (21-3): Don’t think Maori deserve to be this high:
    1. Maybe it is just me but I often struggle to find good land with them. They are very reliant on RNG since they have no pre-allocated land. And conquering a neighbor because you have no room to expand is not exactly beneficial for your culture victory. Even though the AI is more forgiving for a classical war it is still not the ideal strategy. If you eliminate another civ completely you are losing 1/7th of your current and future foreign tourists and by pissing off the other civs you will get less favorable trade deals and lose out on the +25% open border modifier. And if you trigger an emergency that is another 30 turns with no trade routes and open borders (and no apostle suicide if you go for a reliquaries strategy) with possibly multiple civs.

    2. Not getting early great writers is a double negative. Not only are you losing out on its tourism but you are also not denying them to the AI (i.e. you are not keeping the domestic tourists threshold needed to win as low as possible). And in order to get tourism from all those features you want to reach flight as quickly as possible (things other civs don’t necessarily have to do), meaning you have to invest heavily into campuses instead of focusing only on holy sites and theater squares.

    Now having said all that if you do get the right land with lots of room to expand and ideally also have a few first meet city states they are certainly capable to win quick culture victories, especially since they can also meet all civs very early on naval maps. But I still think they are too luck dependent to be this high up.



    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [12]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [27]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [1]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  12. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Messages:
    342
    I thought about downvoting Russia - if it's Civ V his bonus will be so good. But in Civ VI there are so many sources of tourism, the tourism from Great Works is not that big (plus you need space for it). On the other hand getting lots of Great Works help you to get civics a lot quicker. So I will leave Peter alone.

    Again I want to emphasis to people in this thread that Great Works are not the only source of tourism. In fact if you theme 19 art museum and get all 51 Great Works of Writing (25 GW + Art of War) it's only 546 tourism. You need other sources (to get you to 1500-2000 level in non-speed run games).

    Pedro/Brazil [9] (12-3) Carnivals... not that great. Taking district slots, cost productions and only grant a little bit of GWAM points. Unless it's boosted to provide some tourism (doesn't need to be as Great as Magnificent Catherines, 1 tourism per production can be fine) it's not going to win you the game. The remark above that Great Works are not the major source of tourism also applies to Brazil.


    China [24] (23+1) Being able to spam early wonders is great for culture victory - you get Pyramids and Oracle for sure. With Oracle the early GW are doable. You also get Great Work slots from Apadana and Great Library. And don't forget that wonders provide good theater square adjacency.

    A remark on Great Wall: they are not that great as a single tile improvement. It's even useless if you only build it sporadically in your empire. BUT if you can make a giant "C" or "O" shape of wall, then it's truly great. This is one of the most successful design in Civ VI. Don't forget the huge amount of gold it provides! (Usually in VI, gold is not a sparse resource, so gold from tiles can be ignored in discussions - but not when a ton of tiles each provide 6!)


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [9]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [27]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Trajan/Rome [1]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
  13. cylenalag

    cylenalag Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Messages:
    52
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Trajan/Rome [Eliminated] (1 - 3): As much as Trajan is a personal favorite and his free monument helps with early culture as well as strong generalist benefits, he does not hold a candle to the others on this list when it comes to CV. I am fine to clip off my old favorite.

    Peter/Russia (27 + 1): Lavras are so powerful at GWAM creation as mentioned by others previously. Pair that with an amazing faith economy, you get naturalists and rock bands easily. Peter can attack a CV on pretty much all fronts except relics.



    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [13]
    Pedro/Brazil [9]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [28]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [20]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
    lotrmith likes this.
  14. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,009
    -3) Mvemba a Nzinga/ Kongo (13 >> 10). With Trajan already gone, we have a strong contender set left, and becomes difficult to choose who downvote. I'll go with Mvemba as his cultural game has been nerfed with late game tourism changes. ¿Maybe he should get at some point free Naturalists and Rock Bands as he gets apostles, to compensate for his lack of consistent faith generation? (i.e.: he could get Rock Bands each time he builds a broadcast center, and Naturalists for each second university?)

    +1) Wilfrid Laurier / Canada (20 >> 21). Probably one of the strongest sources of tourism, along great works, are Natural parks, and Wilfrid is designed to spam them.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [9]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [28]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
    hhhhhh and lotrmith like this.
  15. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,657
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Upvote:
    Egypt
    Paridaeza >> Sphinx, even f Sphinx is more spammable, somply because Paridaezas are basically always workable tiles, while early sphinx is not. But still sphnx recieves enough tourism itself and grants more to parks and resorts, so Egypt deserves at least one my vote

    Pedro / Kupe I believe are next to go and Pedro is significantly worse than Kupe IMO.
    Kongo is better than 2 obove has more slots in palace, which can fill with relics early (apostles from theatres). Kongo can do reasonably (but not great) in faith too - takes all beliefs of religion they want, so can reliably get enough from +4 faith per wonder or +2 per city
    Brazil -3

    Sidenote:
    I hoped Khmer would stay, 2 relic slot from Prasat :( = 16 tirism per city :(

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [28]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,835
    Hojo (13+1=14): I hate to keep voting for the same leader every day, but someone keeps voting them down and that just doesn't make any sense. Japan is clearly one of the best civs for a cultural victory, as I've argued previously.
    Gitarja (11-3=8): It's getting hard to downvote anyone, but Gitarja really shines better on water maps with lots of coastal cities and I most of the others are more flexible.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [8]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [28]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
  17. JJOne

    JJOne Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    373
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9] (8+1) Sorry, but even pangaea has a coast which Gitarja can settle and kampung. And if you play a modded land only map, well, you won't play Gitarja, just like you won't choose Peter if you make a "hot" map, or Pedro if you make a cold one.
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [15] (18-3) He's built for culture.. but he is sort of at the mercy of RNG gods for getting some usable start cities.
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [28]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
  18. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2019
    Messages:
    70
    Gender:
    Male
    Qin Shi Huang (24+1=25): The first emperor should be first, obviously, not second.
    Peter (28-3=25): I really love playing Russia. Its playstyle that goes from religious into cultural is certainly fun and, yes GWs have been nerfed while natural parks/rock bands have appeared
    BUT It heavily relies on : A- Tundra and B- Monumentality/golden ages.

    Little Tundra => smaller faith => fewer settlers => even less faith and GWs.
    Also, if you get stuck into an eternal non golden age somehow, you wont be able to spam Lavras so you will have neither faith nor GWs.
    China, by contrast, is extremely consistent.



    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [17]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
    hhhhhh likes this.
  19. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    84
    Japan is an outstanding civ and certainly can do very well with a culture victory. The issue is not them. It's Cathy, Cleo, Cyrus, Gorgo, Kristina, Pericles, Peter, The First Emporer, Teddy, and Wilfred, eh.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18] (17+1) Still believe the difference with Pericles is razor thin.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11] (14-3) A frog in the well knows nothing of the great ocean.

    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [10]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
     
    kryat and 8housesofelixir like this.
  20. Dantesedge

    Dantesedge Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2020
    Messages:
    41
    Gender:
    Male
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22] (21+1) I still won't upvote twice in a row or I'd send Hojo some more love since I think he's criminally low at this point. Instead, I'll throw my vote to Wilfrid because the Mountie is a fantastic unit and I find NPs to be super strong if you can make a ton of them - which Canada can and save faith for other things! I wish they would make more non-combat uniques like this. Typically I nab as much non-tundra land I can in the early game, and then back settle; in my last game more than half my NPs were not in tundra at all. Tundra of course is a NP playground and the appeal can be raised with properly placed hockey rinks, which is a pretty nice cultural/tourism boost in itself. I fall into the camp of mid-to-late game tourism over early culture boosts, but that could be because I find it more fun (not going to argue against Pericles steamrolling his way to tourism modifiers though). Anyways, Canada... Top 5 for me.

    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7] (10-3) The second fastest culture victory I had was with Mvemba (beaten by my Ethiopia game just last week). He is a cultural beast... well, he can be a beast. The problem with him is that all sorts of little things have to fall in place in order to maximize his effectiveness. Three precise artists who have statues (one of whom is late in the game). Mont St Michel for the best possible chance to get martyr for your apostles (and the relic slots). The merchant who has the bank with two GW slots. The correct religion - preferably Reliquaries. I won a fast victory because all of these came together (it was Reliquaries that sealed the deal). But what would happen if you struggle to get them? Lastly, as many have pointed out, he is going to struggle with a faith income. The best part is his civ ability that will help you grab the GWAMs you need, but still... it feels like a puzzle where everything needs to fall perfectly in line.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    lotrmith and hhhhhh like this.
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