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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
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    1,187
    Brazil (6+1=7) As Brazil with Sacred Paths, it's pretty easy to put down a holy sites next to 4 rainforests for +8 faith. WIth Work Ethic and the right policy card, you're looking at 16 faith and 16 production for each of these Holy Sites. With that sort of productivity, you can run circles around civs that are still waiting for their unique abilities to come online or for their unique improvements to start generating culture.
    Sweden (22-3=19) Sweden is one of several civs here that have impressive cultural lategames but absolutely nothing to help them get there. If you're able to remain competitive until their bonuses come online, yes you will dominate. But if you're playing under conditions where playing with no bonuses until well into the midgame doesn't put you significantly behind, then you're probably playing under conditions where you would have been able to win the game with any civ.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7]
    Pedro/Brazil [7]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  2. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    496
    Kristina does have some help getting to the "late game" (not sure what y'all think is a culture late game. Anything past turn 170 is "late game" in my mind), but I'll save that for later upvotes.

    The Cyrus backers have convinced me he's really, really good. Even without building holy sites, he gets some extra faith with the appeal pantheon. And anyone who can improve appeal without Eiffel Tower is going to have a nice tourism boost. Plus, his worker building generates culture and tourism (and indirectly faith). So yeah, he is strong.

    Going to downvote Pedro. I like playing him as he plays quite a bit differently than other civs, and I am always very slow to improve tiles and jungle tiles are pretty great without improvement. But he's definitely drifting to the bottom of the remaining civs.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [20] [19+1]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7]
    Pedro/Brazil [4] [7-3]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  3. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

    Joined:
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    I'm not going to downvote Persia or Egypt yet but I do think their unique improvements are being overrated compared to civs with bonuses to great people and culture. You need to take into account that these improvements only start generating tourists once you reach flight, which will happen relatively late. Here's some math, assuming a standard-sized map and not accounting for positive and negative modifiers:
    • +8 tourism from 2 great works of writing after printing will attract 1 tourist per ~28 turns (1600 tourism required per tourist per civ, divided by 8 tourism per turn, divided by 7 other players). If you earn that great writer and have printing around turn 100 and finish around turn 200, that great writer will attract roughly 4 tourists.
    • Let's assume you turn one builder into 6 pairidaezas or sphinxes generating +3 tourism each. That's +18 tourism, or 1 tourist every ~12 turns. But, you only start getting this with flight. If you get flight at turn 150 and finish around turn 200, those 6 pairidaezas/sphinxes will similarly attract roughly 4 tourists, even though they are generating more than twice as much tourism per turn as the 2 great works of writing.
    Simply put, tourists are earned by tourism over time, so early tourism is worth more than late tourism. Go ahead and look at where your visiting tourists actually are at the end of the game. Also, strong culture outputs should not be underestimated as they directly translate into increased tourism at a couple different points in the civic tree. In addition to being able to create rock bands, environmentalism adds +25% to base tourism and social media adds +50% to tourism per civ. Base and individual civ tourism modifiers are multiplicative, so the two together add 87.5% instead of 75%.

    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7-3=4] Seems like you need to get really lucky with having reliquaries spread to you. The AI doesn't pick this until at least the fourth religion, if ever. Most religions (choral music, feed the world, and warrior monks) aren't going to give you anything and the Kongo have little faith generation to help close out a culture game with naturalists and rock bands. Religious founder beliefs are generally not great. While Kongo earns extra GWAMs, as others have previously discussed, it's often a challenge to ensure that you have enough slots available. 4 extra slots in the capitol helps but will only hold slightly more than 1 artist worth.

    Pedro/Brazil [4+1=5] I would rank Brazil above Maori, Kongo, and Indonesia. Yes, you need to plan districts carefully. But you can get really strong culture and faith economies using their ability properly. Nobody else can get a +6 theater square in the early game (though +3 or 4 is more typical). Sacred path and earth goddess are both solid pantheon choices for Brazil and, though sacred path can be competitive to get, I've never seen earth goddess gone before being able to choose it, even just running god king with no other early faith generation (deity difficulty).

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [4]
    Pedro/Brazil [5]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Drivingrevilo likes this.
  4. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

    Joined:
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    Here I enter some lengthy argument about Pairidaeza, National Parks, France and Wonders. At first, I wanted to write some little aside but end up writing way more that I could imagine.

    Spoiler :
    With the promotion Parks and Recreation, Liang has access to the City Park, a tile improvement really similar to the Pairidaeza: they both give +2 Appeal to adjacent tiles. Of course, the Pairidaeza is better overall: you don't need to invest into Governors promotion and can have better Culture overall. A civilization wanting to highly invest in Tourism will have no problem to unlock this mini-Pairidaeza.

    I am joining JesseS: I do believe there is some underestimation of the power of early Tourism and an overestimation of the power of late Tourism, like National Park and Seaside Resort. An average National Park is roughly 15 to 20 Tourism (4 to 5 Appeal per tiles) while having unimproved tiles. Of course, there is numerous things that can help: the Wish You Were Here golden age dedication (+100% Tourism to National Park), Reyna's Forestry Management (+2 Gold and +1 Appeal for unimproved feature), Liang's Parks and Recreation (City Park gives 1 Culture and 2 Appeal), new growth woods (+1 Appeal), the Eiffel Tower (+2 Appeal), the Golden Gate Bridge (+4 Appeal, +100% Tourism) and so on... But you have to highly invest in it to make it works.

    Early Great Works of Writing and early Wonders (even if rubbish) do enjoy some early modifiers:
    • Open Border gives +25% Tourism.
    • Trade Route gives +25% Tourism.
    • Governement negative modifiers are light in the early games, and harsher in the late game.
    • Environmentalism and Computers give +25% each, but are late game modifier.
    The Rock Band are actually way too powerful to even consider that building National Park only for Tourism purposes is the way to go (unless to focus your strategy on it). Only Canada and the USA can make it works, or when the target civilization has the Music Censorship policy. Even if Rock Bands are quite random, there is an high probability to allow some of them to be the winning aces. Most of us did win some games with an undying Rock Band that was yielding a ton of Tourism and even tens of thousand of Gold.

    I am rather surprised by Eleanor and the Black Queen disappearance. I don't know if they judged the leaders alone without taking France's abilities in account, or just compared to the Magnificent only, but France's abilities are sturdy. Too bad. The Château might come too late, and be too restrictive. But I do think that the Château is more powerful overall than the Pairidaeza, but the latter is more useful due to be way more flexible and do better the work. In the end: the Pairidaeza wins.
    Maybe it is because France has no real tools toward Science, Religion or Diplomacy, and very little about Domination?

    The Tourism from Wonders might be rubbish, but France (with China) are the only two civilizations that can make it works. The Tourism formula is 2 + X, X being the numbers of era between the Wonder original era and the current era. France doubles that amount. If France is in the Industrial Era and see the classical Great Lighthouse not claimed yet, she can quickly build and instantly gain 10 Tourism.
    A Château is 4 Culture if next to a Wonder, therefore 4 Tourism. You can do the Hermitage / Château trick that allows to discard unwanted Great Works of Art (with no same artist penalty) and surround the Hermitage with Château for 4 Tourism each.

    In the end, I do believe that I played too much France and tend to overestimate her, and either an underestimation of early Tourism or an overestimation of the National Park.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [16] 19-3 I don't know. I find it very niche. I was never able to make the civilization works. The wonder production is okay but way to restrictive to make it really useful on the long run. The Sphinx is great overall as a tile Appeal booster. Not bad overall, but I think it is the worst of the best that remain.
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [4]
    Pedro/Brazil [6] 5+1 Even if the Carnival project is very niche (basicly: a theatre square project that give half scientist half engineer instead of Culture), Brazil is the only civilization that can put rainforest in National Parks, has some nice Great People point ability, and has some good adjacency to district including Holy Site and Theatre Square (and Campus). Furthermore, Sacred Path pantheon is rather almost never picked, so he can safely go this way if it is surrounded by rainforest.
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    CrabHelmet and 8housesofelixir like this.
  5. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    145
    Reading through the comments from the last few pages to get a holistic view of where things are going, it's quite amusing to see the sheer disparity of assumptions at play. To paraphrase some examples (and no judgement from me here): One person states that relic-based strategies are inconsistent; another states they are unequivocally the best way to win a tourism victory. One person states that culture generation is irrelevant for tourism; another states that it is more important than anything else. One person states that Theater Squares are largely irrelevant for culture victory; another states that half-price Theater Squares is the strongest bonus you can have. One person states that National Parks are inconsequential; another states that they are the best source of late-game tourism. One person states that early-game tourism is far more important than late-game tourism; another states that tourism only becomes relevant in the late game. One person states that GWAMs are the least important aspect of CV; another states they are the most important aspect.

    What I think this illustrates perfectly is that there is no one "way" to win a culture victory. Science victories are simple: you generate science, you research the right techs one-by-one, you launch the spaceships. Domination victories are also simple: conquer the capitals one-by-one. Same for Religion (tick off the cities one-by-one) and Diplomacy (gather the points one-by-one). But culture victory is different: yes, you need to become culturally dominant over each Civ one-by-one; but it's done in an abstract, sometimes nebulous calculation, and there are many, many factors contributing to that calculation. Hence the sheer disparity of opinions.

    As for my votes: illustrating my own point, I believe Egypt are "obviously" the worst here, but others believe they deserve top 5. However, I downvoted her yesterday, so my vote falls by necessity onto Kongo, who are probably the next weakest remaining: faith has become more and more important over the years, but he's practically locked out of earning it unless he finds a La Venta, Armagh, or Nazca.

    And my upvote goes to Kupe, since a few posters seem to dislike him. One person claimed Kupe is too dependent on RNG. Personally, I've never, ever had a problem with finding good spots to settle, even on Pangaea (and bear in mind, Kupe is probably my 'main' so I've played him a lot). Another person stated that Kupe has no source of tourism, and in the very same post upvoted someone else for having a strong faith economy. This is plain inaccurate: Kupe's passable features all produce tourism after flight, and he has the ultimate 'free faith' economy which makes it unnecessary to build a single Holy Site (though he can also do religion very well, should you want to).

    Finally, I still think Japan are being criminally undersold here. Like I've been trying to indicate, there are many, many "ways" to win a culture victory. So there is nothing inherently wrong with having no unique improvement that generates tourism, for example: this is not an indication of a "better" cultural Civ. Instead, Japan can spam out Theater Squares for massive culture and GWAM generation and spam Holy-Sites for massive faith generation, allowing him to do his culture victory through a combination of GWAMs, Seaside Resorts, Natural Parks, and Rock Bands. It's not a "lesser" way to win: and personally, I think 9 times out of 10 it will be faster than Egypt, who gets, what, the Sphinx and nothing else.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [1] (4-3)
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  6. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Agree there are many ways to approach Culture and the level you are playing at will influence things - if you're always behind because you play on Deity then you'll value late tourism more than those of us who play on other levels and tend to "lead from the front".

    With that said my upvote is going to Japan [12] 11+1 who are all round very powerful and way too low for my liking. They have so much going for them in terms of cheap districts and extra adjacency.

    With my downvote I'm going to eliminate Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [-2 Eliminated] (1-3), as has been said he just needs too many things out of his control to go right for a strong CV, much weaker than Rome who are already gone.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [19]
    Kupe/Maori [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  7. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Pedro/Brazil [3] (6-3) The weakest one remaining,
    Kristina/Sweden [20] (19+1) Unmatched power spike. You can manage early game with your diplo favor economy.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pedro/Brazil [3]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  8. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

    Joined:
    May 9, 2020
    Messages:
    230
    Gender:
    Male
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [6] (9 - 3) Haven't tried Kampung tourism, but I don't think it is impressive.

    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pedro/Brazil [4] (3 + 1) Great people refund can see pedro earning multiple great people in same era + high yields + plenty of high appeal spots.
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  9. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    First vote and I really should have voted before, but I kept seeing my upvotes eliminated....I really think Mali should still be here, especially as many are posting as if the work ethic belief isn't bugged or is certainly going to be fixed. I even saw one post claiming Mali can't build wonders....really....what else shall they build? Also very easy to secure Isadore of Miletos with just Invention and a whole lot of faith.

    But now I'm going to throw a wrench in the works. Many assume a land map , it seems, as water civs get downvoted for being weak on land but not vice versa, so here goes:

    Maori 16+1-17
    Fast movement over water and the chance to take your time to find a really good capital. Settle within the time it takes a reg civ to grow to pop 2 and you still come out ahead. Lots of goody huts and free envoys make for a powerful start, rapid expansion is easier with Kupe and you can high-grade a water map really easily settling in rainforest, beside reefs and near wonders. All that to lay groundwork for a civ that can skip many buildings and districts and get yields directly from the land.

    Peter 25-3=22

    Yes, Peter should win this competition. But I'll down vote once because he's got nothing going for him on a water map. Extra ocean tiles, minimal Tundra, and no seafaring strengths don't make him so far better than the others that this race couldn't be tighter. Land maps are only half the game. Water maps are just as common.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
    Cyrus/Persia [19]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [22]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [7]
    Pedro/Brazil [6]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  10. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Messages:
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    Gender:
    Male
    Edit for simultaneous voting.

    Kupe/Maori [18] (17+1). Fully on board with @TCBB’s comments in general but especially regarding Kupe. I’ve won several cultural victories as Kupe, all were extremely easy (and enjoyable! he’s so much fun to play) and two of them were among my fastest victories ever. Free production from the go, free culture & faith once you rush Marae, and free tourism once you rush Flight. And since he has instant embarkation, he gets to meet everyone fast and starts generating tourism against them from the go. Never has a path to victory been so simple. As for no Great Writers, well, it sounds significant - but remember they were nerfed hard a while back, and not having to grab Printing means you can focus on the top half of the tree and rush Flight instead.

    Cleopatra/Egypt [13] (16-3) Gitarja is worse, but I downvoted her already. The overall package Cleo offers is so ehhhh. The Sphinx is clearly the best part, letting you get a load of powerful Seaside Resorts or Natural Parks in the late game. But the Sphinx alone isn’t enough to keep her in for much longer: where are the bonuses that help you reach that late game in good time? Other Civs have a greater combination of culture, faith, tourism, and GWAMs than Cleo can offer.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13] (16-3)
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [6]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [18] (17+1)
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pedro/Brazil [4]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    CrabHelmet and Deadly Dog like this.
  11. kryat

    kryat King

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2017
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    Kristina/Sweden [23] (22+1) Kristina keeps getting underrated. That theming bonus is huge and is available with museums unlock. Then, as has been said before, there’s a very sudden power spike on open air museums. 10 culture and 10 tourism tiles that don’t need flight is very powerful. Additionally, I’ve come to enjoy the concentrated 1-per city improvements. They let your cities still work farms and mines and benefit from the power spike. This is why I’d argue the open air museum and hockey rink are better than the Sphinx or Pairideaza (and yes, I know those are about appeal, but if you think art museums come late, I have news for you).

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [9] (12-3) Japan isn’t a bad civ for a culture victory, but everyone in contention is better. Stronger faith games, stronger tourism games, stronger appeal games. The main things in Japan’s kit are faster holy sites and theater squares and higher adjacency. These are great. But almost everyone else on this list has a little extra something that gives them an extra kick.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [6]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [9]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]

    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pedro/Brazil [4]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  12. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Gitarja gets a lot of faith and has a spammable UI. That counts for a lot of extra tourism if you go down that route.

    Pedro is flexible, and he can choose a path which generates some pretty strong theatre squares and holy sites, but he's pulled in a lot of directions doing so. He's strong but I think he is one of the weaker ones left.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [20]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [9]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [1]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
  13. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    723
    Catherine/France (Mag) [22]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [10]
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [1]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    Early Culture gets you Tourism by getting you to all the Tourism Civics faster than anyone else. This idea that people like Pericles and Hojo bring nothing is just piffle. Hojo is a top 5 Culture Civ. Meanwhile people are going nuts over Civs with Tourism UIs, ignoring that this does very little for much of the game to set them up, has a slightly lesser version available from Liang for those who want it, and can often be obtained through City-States. What's going on here?

    I am genuinely just confused as to how Civs like Cyrus, Cleopatra, Gitarja, and Qin Shi Huang are doing this well (thankfully Gitarja is on the slide now). I have much faster CVs with Kupe, Pericles, and Hojo than I do any of those four. People are seriously overhyping the amount of Tourism needed. If you get to Tourism really fast, other Civs don't have enough Culture to fight back so much and you just need less of it. In addition, you got there faster so you have more of it earlier. It's getting to the point I'm tempted to ask what turn count people are winning their CVs by, because people are making points I can only understand if they're only used to winning really "late" eked-out Culture Victories instead of decisive earlier ones.
     
    Noble Zarkon and JhGf_123 like this.
  14. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
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    ^Exactly what he said. I’ll repeat my statement from yesterday, which justifies why I’m upvoting Hojo: “Yes: culture does huge amounts for tourism, because with a massive culture output you get to museums and naturalists and democracy and rock bands faster than the AI is able to build their defensive output”.

    I’ve now finished my game as Magnificence Catherine, and I can comprehensively say she is overrated - or more specifically that her district project is overrated. I rolled several times before I even found luxury resources near me, but I abandoned that start after about 50 turns when it became clear how few luxuries I had elsewhere. After several more rerolls I eventually found a promising looking game - but again, frustratingly few spare copies. It was only once I had got well past turn 100 that I had even secured 2 x amber and 2 x cotton - and even then, running the project seemed to make very little difference. I ended up pivoting to a normal culture victory because the project was whoefully expensive for what it seemed to offer. Chalk my experience down to bad luck if you want, but I think it’s clear that her district project is very, very unluckily to come into effect until later on, unless you’re very lucky with spawn. Either that or I’m a “bad” player, which could be true since I’ve only just stepped up to deity - but even then, that’s relevant because it shows that MG Catherine is not a noob-friendly leader, which reflects on her overall strength.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [19] (22-3)
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11] (10+1)
    Kristina/Sweden [23]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [1]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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  15. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2020
    Messages:
    97
    Gender:
    Male
    Disclaimer: I feel that consistency needs to be valued more, and have used that reasoning below (as @JhGf_123 also pointed out above). Many of the remaining civs here I believe are treated depending on their "optimal" conditions (meaning re-rolls for starts that they rely on, or particular settings) in order to hit their power level. That is not a consistent civ that on average will win the game. Maybe they can close out a CV earlier than more "solid" civs given great starts, but if they fail at doing so given 2/3 (or worse) of their starts, they should imo be treated as a bad civ for getting a CV.

    Pedro/Brazil +1: I hope he doesn't go too early yet. Recently played him (twice!) going for a Deity CV, and oh boy is that guy solid and easy to set up for a CV. Building National Parks is never a problem with this fella, and unlike other civs, he doesn't have to rely on building UIs to boost appeal - it's just there by default. With the Earth Goddess pantheon (which is usually fairly easy to get, compared to Sacred Path), he doesn't have to lift a finger in order to swim in "free" faith, taking the stress off of him to spam holy sites. Even if he misses out on Earth Goddess and Sacred Path, this guy gets massive adjacencies without going for any particular pantheon (unlike say, Russia with Dance of the Aurora). Screw his unique districts - while nice, this guy's strength lies in the raw amount of very high appeal tiles and (usually) easy faith generation. The fact that you also get super easy early adjacency on theatre squares (as well as everything else) just makes this guy so solid. Definitely one of the most fun and reliable civs for a CV for me.

    Kristina/Sweden -3: It's getting harder to choose who to downvote, and I was torn between Kristina, Hojo (again), Catherine and Menelik this round. I like to downvote those who rely on luck (and are not solid by default) to be strong. As Kristina, she relies on luck in the form of settling locations. While some like to showcase games with 12+ cities where each contain a +10 culture/tourism open air museum, the problem with Kristina is that (especially on Deity), you might not get to settle all too many cities, and especially not have your pick of the litter for settling locations. Perhaps you might only get to settle 3 of the 5 types (or god forbid, 2) of terrain, while only being able to settle 7-8 cities before you're out of space. If that happens, her tourism power goes down hard. As for auto theming, that's not always the massive bonus people make it out to be. It's strong, but usually I get my museums themed (if not immediately, then somewhat later), so while this definitely helps, it's not game breaking by any means.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [2]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [23]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  16. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,836
    Hojo (11+1=12): I guess I'll just have to give my upvote to Hojo every day since he keeps getting downvotes. Japan is easily top 5. I'll take half-prices Theater Squares and Holy Sites over a Sphinx any day.

    Teddy (20-3=20): BM Teddy is very dependent on getting a good start. Otherwise, his bonuses really don't kick in until Conservation (better National Parks) and the modern era (Film Studio). So, I don't think he should have the second highest vote total.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [2]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
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  17. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
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    Pedro/Brazil [eliminated] (2-3) I like Pedro a lot and I think he's a great jack-of-all-trades, but I think Gitarja and him are a step below everyone else remaining and I've already downvoted Gitarja.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21] (20+1) Is he dependent on a good start? Sure, but so is Cathy (wants a bunch of luxuries), Cleo (floodplains), Gitarja (lots of coast), Greece (hills for acropoli), Kristina (wants a wide range of terrain to settle on nearby), Kupe (needs to find a good spot to land), Menelik (needs hills, and lots of them), Pedro (lots of jungle), and Peter (lots of tundra). Not buying that as an excuse to downvote him, honestly.

    Also, not sure I really buy the whole "you can just use city parks instead of Egypt or Persia's UI" thing. That will cost you 4 governor promotions... that's a pretty high cost IMO. Plus they kind of suck outside of whatever city Liang is actually stationed in, and now you get to experience the joy of micromanaging her from city to city...

    Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pedro/Brazil [eliminated] (2-3)
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21] (20+1)
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  18. VanTao

    VanTao Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Gitarja/Indonesia [4] (7-3) - One of the best naval civs, but comes with the down sides of naval civs, even with the buff to coastal cities. In the early game, coastal cities on average don’t grow as well as inland river cities due to housing and have less good tiles to choose from (after getting a Harbor, this changes, but again, my comment is towards early game). More specifically for Indonesia’s approach to a Culture victory, though getting a consistent source of Faith (though not necessarily a large source, as not all of your cities may be coastal) and an early Pantheon is nice, it doesn’t really give them advantages with early Culture to get to the key civics fast.

    As you might guess, I’m solidly in the camp that, in general, early to mid game Culture yields and getting all/most of the early Great Works of Writing are more important than late game Tourism (with a weak early Culture economy) for a fast Culture victory. You are building lifetime Tourists early before your opponents gets a strong Culture defense, you are depriving your opponents from getting Culture / Tourism of their own which would require you to get even more Tourism to compensate, and you are snowballing to get to the late game civics and techs that grant more Tourism faster.

    Kampungs are a good source of Tourism late game with Flight and are highly spamable, but unlike the other UIs that do this as well, Kampungs don’t provide Culture. That means they are even slower at getting through the civics compared to those civs, all else being equal. The minor adjacency TS get from a Coast tiles is not enough to compensate, and doesn’t help to get to TS in the first place. They can get good Science yields in their Coast cities though thanks to the +2 major adjacency from Reefs helping to compensate for a Coast bias. The Coast minor adjacency can add a little more Science to this as well. Thus, you potentially can get to Flight in an acceptable time.

    Their reliable (though not necessarily large) Faith production means they can go for late game National Parks and Rock Bands (not to the extent of Faith monsters like Russia, Ethiopia, or even Japan). However, given their coastal bias, they often don’t have a lot of spots for National Parks. If you decide to settle inland to get spots for National Parks, you then lose spots for Kampungs.

    Indonesia can potentially get a decent amount of good Seaside Resorts, but they will often be competing with districts for placement.

    Solid culture civ, and fun to play if you like yield porn, particularly if you get the Mausoleum in a predominately Coast city, but I think they and the other UI civs (save for Ethiopia; China too, but for different reasons) need to go now.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13] (2+1) - Now that Rome has been eliminated (too soon in my opinion ... see below the civ list for my concluding comments on Rome), I will support the three civs that can have a similar approach to Rome in a fast Culture victory: Japan and the two Greeces (I think Rome’s path is stronger as I mentioned in my earlier post, but they’ve been eliminated, so it’s a moot point). I actually think Japan is slightly weaker at this than both the Greeces, however, in my opinion, shouldn’t be eliminated before Indonesia, Egypt, and Brazil. I was going to vote for Greece - Gorgo, but wanted to prop Japan up.

    Japan can build TS faster, getting GWofW faster. They can build HS faster, and thanks to their stronger adjacencies, will have a stronger Faith economy to support a Culture win. In addition, given that Work Ethic adjacency seems to have replaced Petra porn for the fascination of Civ players, they can also reliably go for this strategy and potentially use it in more cities than Russia, Mali, or Brazil (though admittedly it will be slightly slower going than those three civs until you can get at least 3-4 districts around your Holy Sites, let alone the full 6).

    Until they get their TS up, they don’t have a good source of early Culture. This makes getting to Drama & Poetry for TS slightly more challenging, which is why I think Greece - Gorgo (and Rome) is better. Once they do, they will start getting going. Again, even though Japan doesn’t have a UI to get a Tourism at Flight, the early GWoW compensate for this, deny other civs from from building defensive domestic Tourists, and they will get to the late game civics and Techs faster than most to start generating Tourism that way as well.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [4] (7-3)
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13] (12+1)
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [22]

    ==Warning - LONG and not directly related to above. Feel free to skip.==

    Appreciate the kind comments on my earlier lengthy explanation about Rome. Im glad it convinced some to throw a few extra votes towards Rome, though I kind of accepted they would be eliminated (I still think too early though). I’m a long time lurker but only a recent poster. COVID self isolation has meant I have more free time to think about posting. As you can guess, Rome is my main civ, so when I saw them slipping, wanted to make an argument in their favor.

    Even though they’ve been eliminated, I would like to clarify the reason why Rome is so (deceptively) productive in the early game thanks to the free Monuments and why this makes them a top tier civ (hopefully I’m not breaking any rules of the elimination thread).

    Thanks to the Culture from the free Monuments, Rome can get the Agoge and Colonization policy cards so much faster than other civs, even if you don’t get the Inspiration boost (which can be hard for Agoge if you don’t spend Production / Gold on a builder or get one via a Goody Hut). Though a lot of players conceptually understand this, it is often not realized the actual number of turns saved compared to other civs.

    For example, if beelining for a non-Inspiration boosted Craftsmanship, it will take Rome at most 19 turns, ignoring RNG from meeting a Culture CS (previously much more potent prior to City State nerf to first envoy) or having a tile that gives Culture yield (and you might shave 1 more turn off due to the 0.3 Culture per pop if you happen to grow your city to 3 or 4 pop really quickly). As other civs, this takes on average 50-55+ turns if you don’t build or buy a Monument in the meantime (again, ignoring RNG that gives you access to alternate means of getting Culture). That is a 30-35+ turn difference. That is a decent chunk of the length of a typical game. Again, this is for a non-boosted Craftsmanship, since if you are min-maxing, this is arguably the hardest of the early civics to get an Inspiration boost for; I often don’t build or buy builders until after turn 30 and normally I use / save 1 of the build charges for chopping.

    This is why you will often have an army at least twice as large as you would normally have as another civ at the same point in the game, because you’ll be getting the benefits from Agoge sooner and applying it for longer. Same concept with Colonization when it comes to settlers, which as Rome further compounds the effect of the +2 Culture from free Monuments. In addition, if you apply Magnus chops to the units while running their respective policy card, this is further enhanced, helped by buying a Builder with gold you saved from not buying a Monument. Yes, other civs will eventually get these policy cards, but you will have been getting the benefits for longer, on average 30 turns longer.

    For arguments sake, let’s say on average you collectively have 30+ production across your early cities producing these type of units. An extra 50% from the policy cards means 15+ additional production collectively across your cities. Multiplied by the 30 turns Rome has over another civ by getting the policy cards early, this is 450+ “extra” / earlier Production (and note, obviously your collective production won’t stay constant, it should be increasing over the course of those 30 turns as well; however, wanted to keep the math simple). Admittedly, this is a simplistic example and you may not get exactly this amount of production difference. However, hopefully this illustrates why the free Monuments is more than just +2 Culture a turn. Given that Rome is the civ I main, when I play other civs, I often find myself thinking “why do I have a much smaller army with fewer cities ... why does the game feel harder ...”.

    “Well, I’m not just going to hard research Craftsmanship. Of course I will have built or bought a Monument in the meantime, maybe even another one in my second city. Or I will get a builder to complete 3 improvements to get the inspiration So really, it’s not 30-35 turns saved”. Sure, you can do this. In some situations, this might be a valid decision. However, the point is Rome doesn’t have to make that decision. Rome instead can use those same turns or gold to build or buy a military unit (or 2-3 if compared to the opportunity cost of a second Monument). In multiplayer, if we’re neighbors, that means that nice city you built a Monument is now mine. In higher difficulty games, that Monument isn’t going to defend you against 5 warriors and 2 archers from the AI.

    Also, though true that Rome has no bonuses to mid-to-late game Culture yields, I would argue the culture from getting all the early Great Writers (if Russia is not in your game) and continuing to get additional Great Writers due to snowballing ahead is their “bonus”. Yes, other civs can compete with Rome for Great Writers, it’s not like this is unique to Rome. However, it is amazing how deceptively powerful being 30+ turns ahead can actually be when competing for Great People.

    Lastly, I would like to comment that my discovery on how strong Rome is all comes from watching CivTrader6’s videos back in early 2018. Though I recognize that his “Deity Peaceful Science Victory in 157 Turns (as Rome)” is 2+ going on 3 years old and is no longer really applicable given changes and patches to overflow, late game Great Scientists, the introduction of RF and GS mechanics, etc., when I first watched that video, it got me into playing Rome (and there are some concepts he demonstrates that are still applicable). Previously, Russia and Greece were my favorite civs, as I too thought Rome’s bonuses sounded boring and underwhelming when I first got the game. I quickly saw how great Rome is thanks to CivTrader6. In addition, ironically, it was another player who goes by CivTrader who regularly posts on Reddit (CivTrader mentions he is not CivTrader6 from YouTube) who demonstrated the strategy for a fast Culture Victory. Though this was pre-Great Writers nerf, I’ve done games before and after the nerf, and though definitely slower post-nerf, the same concept exists. You are generating Tourism before other civs can generate enough defensive Culture and you are preventing those civs from getting Culture and Tourism from GWoW.

    Admittedly, Rome is a superior Domination civ, for the same reasons I’ve described above and in my previous post, even with the Iron requirement nerf, much more than their ranking in the recent Domination elimination thread. My opinion is they are better than Ottomans, Macedon, Scythia, Mongolia, (arguably) Persia, and in particular Zulu. This would put them in the Top 5 of that elimination thread instead of #11. Zulu corps / armies are godly but they take so freaking long to get to under most circumstances that I’ve won the game already as Rome. Similar to how a lot of players are obsessed with Petra porn, I believe that a lot of players are hypnotized by the amazing Combat Strength of Zulu corps / armies that they forget that have to get to (survive to) Mercenaries first.

    But I digress. This is the Culture Elimination Thread, and now that Rome has been eliminated, I’m going to try to argue that Greece - Gorgo is similarly a very strong Culture civ for a lot of the same reasons Rome is (and though more variable than Rome in terms of a Culture production, gains the benefit of the extra Wild Card slot and the amazing half cost Acropolis TS), in addition to Pericles and Japan to a lesser extent.
     
  19. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Messages:
    356
    Catherine/France (Mag) [20] (19+1) @JhGf_123 do you realize that luxuries you get from CS and luxuries you purchase also contribute to the count of the project? I kinda agree that she's not noob friendly but if you can get all luxuries on your continent she's pretty decent. Don't wait till late game to run that project, that will be painfully expensive.

    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19] (22-3) I wonder how many people will be pissed if I choose to downvote Canada. They have no early-mid game bonus, no culture bonus except ice hockey rink which is unlock on Colonialism, which means the only thing that allow you to expand your border is monument. And your border won't easily grow to 4th and 5th ring like Russia or China, unless you build some theater square, which Canada have no bonus about. In non-theater square cities even 3rd ring tiles are slow. So National Parks will be restricted to 3rd ring. And it's passive to win with that - even 20 national parks only grant you 400-ish tourism. You still need something else.


    I agree that we need consistency. Many of the remaining ones (China, Russia, Greece) are pretty consistent. Sweden's bonus comes a little late but still consistent. Catherine/France's bonus is actually relatively consistent once people get the gist of her.

    Not sure how consistent Bull Moose Teddy is though, if you spawn in rainforests then good luck finding 2 culture 2 science from tiles (yeah I know you can use Renya, but that's 2 governor's titles, and only serves one city). Bull Moose Teddy seems super fun for some campus free or even maybe theater square free games. But what wins him the game that the old, non-persona Teddy cannot does the same?

    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]

    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [4]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  20. Francel

    Francel Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
    Messages:
    195
    Gender:
    Female
    Let me pour one out for Poland and Khmer. You will be missed...
    Spoiler :


    Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [13]
    Cyrus/Persia [17]
    Gitarja/Indonesia [4]
    Gorgo/Greece [18]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [10] (13-3) - A little bit of extra culture and faith for holy sites and theater squares. You might unlock civics quicker and generate more gwam, but of the ones who are left, they might be the weakest.
    Kristina/Sweden [21] (20+1) - Automatic theming, open air museum gives up to 10 culture and 10 tourism per city; presumably that means 20 tourism after researching flight. It comes late but still seems pretty strong. Not as much as a relic with reliquaries but nonetheless decent.
    Kupe/Maori [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [23]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [19]
     
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