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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

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    Kupe (6+1).

    Kristina (23-3).

    Obligatory 'European' upvote for Kupe. To add to the previous comments, I've got one point I'd like to make: early defensibility. Often when I roll a game intending to do CV, I find myself invaded by a neighbour in the early game, presumably becuase I'm not making enough units. Apart from Cyrus & his immortals, I reckon Kupe stands the greatest chance of fighting off this early threat – partly because of his OP Toa unit, partly because of the insane production in his capital, or maybe because he settled safely on an island. Some of these otherwise great culture leaders are so weak in the early game, that this invasion will set them back for the entire game or, worse, even lead to a restart. I'm thinking of Kristina in particular, hence the downvote, but also Catherine, Qin, and Pericles (not Menelik, as chances are you've got the combat strength bonus on hills to defend you).

    You might dismiss this as irrelevant, but a restart is a loss. I've 100% had to restart as Kristina due to early aggression, same for Qin – how do you balance wonder building with fighting off John Curtin??? – but it's never been a problem for Kupe.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cyrus/Persia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [10]
    Kristina/Sweden [20] (23-3)
    Kupe/Maori [7] (6+1)

    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [24]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [17]

    Edit: forgot to reply to @hhhhhh; to be fair, I did not realise that Catherine's project includes traded luxuries, that could have helped. But I still maintain that it's a very situational bonus and, like you say, not friendly to the noobier players like me. Give me Peter's Lavra every day: pop it down, pick Work Ethic, win the game.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  2. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Kupe/Maori [4] (7-3) What's that? A Maori downvote from Europe? Well, he has one of most unreliable starts of all civs, a trade-off that kinda hinders him considering he could amass a lot of early game tourism from GW by meeting all civs sooner than anybody else, and Tourism explosion really only past Flight.

    Pericles/Greece [25] (24+1) Half-cost superior Theater squares and a load of culture to race to important civics very fast.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cyrus/Persia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [10]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [17]
     
  3. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    Count this as a vote from Europe if you like, but it's actually from Newfoundland. I'm not from here but it feels more Europe than North America at times, especially if you game online or do social media etc when you first get up.:goodjob:

    Kupe (4+1)=5. I keep seeing "if you get a good start". No one has an easier time than Kupe in getting a good first city. On large maps you can locate the rainforest belt with in 6 turns and if on the way you haven't found an island site with several reefs you still have 4 turns to pick a nice rainforest coast. And getting flight is no problem if you just ignore campus spam (1 or 2 is plenty) and focus on zoos and aquariums. By far my fastest CV's have been with Maori.

    Wilfred Laurier (17-3)=14. its going to be hard to get much from tundra bias if Dance gets picked first, and I see HS adjacency pantheons being the first to go in all my games. Super great late game bonuses yes especially faithless National Parks. With the wrong AI opponents though it will be too late.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cyrus/Persia [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [10]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [4]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [17]


     
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  4. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

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    Just a few general thoughts on Gitarja and Egypt vs Persia first:

    It’s kind of hard to rate naval civs for me, since I mostly play pangea, so not sure Gitarja deserved to go quite yet. But I remember in interesting game with her on a continents and islands map, where I won a T200ish culture victory just with kampungs and seaside resorts (without theater squares or faith based tourism: relics, national parks or rock bands).

    Egypt vs Persia: I honestly believe Egypt is just as good, if not better at culture victories as Persia. So, it’s strange to see them eliminated while Persia is still at 16 points. I think we can all agree that the main strength of Persia comes from their Pairidaeza. The extra movement from surprise wars is kind of useless, since you don’t really want to be the aggressor in culture games (too many negative consequences). Then all that is remaining is an extra trade route and some gold and culture from internal trade routes (not bad, but not exactly game changing). But in culture games you usually want to start trading with other civs pretty early on for the +25% tourism modifier.

    Egypt’s main strength is also their unique improvement, the Sphynx. But I would rate her other bonuses better suited for CVs than Persia’s. Even if the extra production along rivers for districts and wonders is not huge, in an entire game it will save you a decent amount of production you can spend on other things instead. And since you want to trade internationally anyway the extra gold is always welcome.

    Now let’s compare the Sphinx and Pairidaeza:

    They both have basically the same base yields (1 faith vs 2 gold), but very early on the Sphynx is better, since it provides additional culture on flood plains (Egypt’s start bias). And often you actually want to work those tiles anyway (after being flooded), so there is less of an opportunity cost there.
    Later on after building theater squares, holy sites and commercial hubs the Pairidaezas will usually have better yield if you place them adjacent to those districts, but the best spots often compete with other district spots. The Sphinx gets additional faith from wonders and while that is not super impressive, it’s still a nice little boost for monumentality golden ages if you can grab an early wonder (ToA, Pyramids, Colosseum, Oracle).

    So, from their yields I would but the Pairidaeza slightly ahead of the Sphinx. This also means they will produce more tourism after flight, but I don’t think the difference is very significant.

    But when it comes to placement restrictions there is no question that the Sphinx is just straight up better. Compared to the Sphinx, the Pairidazea cannot be build on floodplains and more importantly in tundra (where it is often much easier to place national parks). This not only hurts your national park placement, but also your potential faith generation with earth goddess. It has also been mentioned before that the Sphinx can be placed adjacent to each other, but unless they changed it with the NFP again, that is not the case anymore (It was introduced with GS, but then removed again last summer).

    So, all in all I would say they are pretty much equal and personally I prefer the sphinx. And if you consider the rest of their abilities at the very least the two civs are very very close in strength.

    Cyrus/Persia [13] (16-3): With Egypt gone, Persia should follow.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11] (10+1): I have to defend Japan again. It’s really interesting how divided the community is about their strength. With half price on the 2 most important districts you just cannot be this low on the list. Maybe some people don’t realize that half price districts does not just mean you are getting those districts up faster, but also that it frees production for other things instead. And especially in the early game, where production is so scarce, this is a huge advantage. It can mean getting out an extra settler 5 turns earlier or building a few more military units to clear more barb camps and securing a golden age, or getting up monuments to reach drama and poetry faster, or just start building those T1 buildings a lot sooner.

    Half price districts also mean that new cities, will actually finish those districts in a reasonable time.

    And we haven’t even talked about adjacencies. His theater square adjacencies can compete with Greece. And even though Japan will not reach conservation or rock bands quite as fast as Greece, at least he has the necessary faith economy to actually fully take advantage of those civics.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [5]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [14]
     
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  5. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    In my experience, Rock Bands have made it such that a strong faith output is almost a non-negotiable for culture wins. Civs like Ethiopia who can generate a lot of passive faith, or even Canada where you can double down on both parks and rock bands simultaneously have a nice synergy with culture victory now. Going through the civics tree fast is clearly essential, but most civs can generate sufficient adjacencies with wonders/districts that you can do it qfast and early tourism can be a bit hit and miss depending on which other civs are in the game/map size etc...

    Canada: You don't have to choose between parks and rock bands.

    Gorgo: Pericles' weaker twin. Speedier but his brute force is better.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [1]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [10]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [11]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [5]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [15]

    Moderator Action: Reinstated Cleopatra who suffered an accidental double down vote earlier, seems like this is happening more often with the new posting style of putting text above or below the vote totals! --NZ
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2020
  6. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

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    Peter/Russia +1: My gut feeling tells me he's ending at the number 1 spot (that, or Greece), so I might as well upvote him. There's nothing he can't do cultural or religion-wise. Just too strong in both departments, and his faith overflows into CV come GS. Sure he relies a bit on Dance of the Aurora, but you're almost always getting it. And even if you don't, the Lavra is still OP on its own. Perhaps equally as important, you are denying almost every single piece of GWAM from the AI, by sheer virtue of Lavra spam (followed by more TS to store your "free" GWAMs). I've had games where the AI only managed to secure 1 or 2 GPs in the cultural department with this guy, and me hoarding the rest and denying them of tourism. Heck, Peter could probably get an extremely unlucky desert start, and I would still be fairly sure that I could pull off a reliable CV. So, so good.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan -3: I was really miffed when people voted out Pedro so early, so I guess I'll just have to downvote Japan again then. Don't get me wrong, Japan is VERY solid for a cultural game. Hojo can compete regardless of the RNG the game throws at you start-wise, and that's a big plus for him. Unfortunately though, faster Theatre Squares and Holy sites are his only real trick in that department, and that only gets you so far. People are pointing at Meiji Restoration for additional adjacency, but that is imo hugely overrated overrated since it doesn't get you a lot of adjacency early on (when it could really make a difference, and also since you are most likely gonna place down a HS near some good mountain adjacency early on (if you really want good faith for when it makes a difference), which limits the effect it has on nearby district clusters adjacency-wise (namely, TS). Sure you can plant a TS together with a HS and a bunch of other districts out in the open between cities to get those massive clusters, but it takes a long time for the adjacencies to really ramp up. And come the middle- to late game (when you have the massive clusters set up properly), your faith and culture income isn't dependent on your HS/TS adjacency anymore, but rather the buildings they contain, the GWAMs they contain and the amount of envoys you have in cultural/religious city states (which again, ramp up buildings). At that point, Japan is out of tricks to push his lead.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [1]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [10]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [8]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [5]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [15]
     
  7. kryat

    kryat King

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    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [16] (15+1)
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5] (8-3)

    I try very hard to not double downvote. I will make an exception in just this case. The thing about Japan is that their half price districts aren’t inherently more powerful than their peers. Unique districts aren’t powerful just because they’re half price, but because they add something others don’t get. For Greece, it’s an envoy and a very powerful adjacency. For Russia it’s double GWAM points that anyone else can get access to. That’s why they’re still on the list. Japan may get the districts faster, and after a while, may get higher adjacency, but everyone else’s abilities are more powerful in the long run. Peter and Mvemba will still beat Japan to most writers, which aren’t huge sources of tourism. Menelik, Kupe, Peter, Cleopatra, Pedro, Wilfred, Mansa, and many others will beat Hojo out in raw faith production. Wilfred, Cyrus, Cleopatra, Teddy, Kristina, and Qin will leave Japan in the dust in tourism in the end game. Catherine will do it even faster. While Japan’s culture adjacency might be a little higher by mid game, when they finally get enough districts, Kristina is getting her open air museums out, Qin is building the wall, Kupe’s had Mareas for a while, Lautaro has had Chemamulls forever, Catherine and Eleanor are building chateaus, each of these leaving Hojo’s little extra +2 above on theater squares way, way behind. And of course, Pericles and Gorgo are an era or two ahead, maybe Teddy as well. Japan just doesn’t get anything special past building things a little faster, and a little better adjacency.

    Upvote to Wilfred, who has better faith, more parks, and way better endgame tourism than Hojo.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [1]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [10]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [5]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [16]
     
    Oberinspektor Derrick likes this.
  8. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    704
    Justice for Cleo. She gets a permanent production bonus for districts along all river tiles, not just desert/floodplain. The sphinx provides culture *and* faith *and* appeal, making it better than the Pairidaeza overall until and unless you plop Holy Sites next to them. Yet with the district production bonus along rivers, Cleo is just as likely to build Holy Sites, particularly to nab Work Ethic along with Desert Folklore. This is even stronger than her fallback to Reeds. Icing on the cake is her complete and total immunity to damage from floods. Claiming Egypt is low production is a very one-dimensional viewpoint.

    Now Kupe, on the other hand, hardly gets squat early on. Unlikely to found a religion. No writers despite a bias for theater squares due to Marae. Inability to harvest resources means suboptimal placement of districts and less available land for Seaside Resorts. Chopping, while possible, comes at significant production opportunity cost and loses the bonus faith/culture. Meeting every other Civ first means nothing if you have 0 Tourism until Flight.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [10]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [25]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [16]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  9. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    There were two Teddies, one is gone even though both share the same tourism weapon of mass destruction called film studio.
    There are 2 greeks still left.
    I tend not to do well with Greeks, like nearly all civs without growth bonus with low food bias. Place me in hilly area and I will stay for ages with a maximum of 4 pop, keeping me at 2 district limit. With Ethiopia I also have often hill antiparadise, but their church acts basically as a district.
    Among Greeks I always do better with Gorgo, early culture means more than late culture.
    Pericles 25-3

    And because tourism WOMD was mentioned, I feel obliged to give America an upvote.
    As I noticed from my HoF, America is suprisingly the 2nd of my most played civs and all of victories were cultural. Even if I tried other victories, film studio spoiled that plans and gave tourism victories before :( After splitting Teddies I even played a game with RR version heading for diplo victory and again, tourism happened before :( It looks like to me the only way to win any other type of victory as America is not to build a single film studio. There should be achievement added and marked as very hard -> win diplo/science victory as America without avoiding film studios.
    New Teddy lost unfortunately that strong +5 strenght on home continent so useful early game but I am very happy I can replace weak rough riders noone ever built with some free yields from appeal.
    TR 21+1

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [10]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [16]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  10. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Jul 18, 2020
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    Interesting to see Maori go down and up and down. And Cleopatra rising from dead.

    I was the one who claimed you need 2000 base tourism to win but as I try to check my history I only need that much in Mongolia culture victory. Sorry about that. Yeah you can win with 600 tourism if you gain that fast enough.

    It's funny how people debate a lot about Catherine/France (Mag) but don't have much to say about Menelik/Ethiopia. I don't have any comments either. How fast can he get to Flight may be the key. I think he shouldn't be too much stronger than a general Flight-Tourism civ on culture. (But very strong, due to faith generation. Maybe [17] is a fairer score here. Interestingly that's the score of Catherine/France (Mag) right now.)

    Gorgo/Greece [11] (10+1) Greece is strong. Pericles make it extra strong, but Gorgo's Greece is not that weak either. Sure you lost the 5% for each suzerainty, but we have to admit even without that leader bonus you can still win with all the bonus of the Greece civ, even in a peaceful game without any killing other than barbarians.

    Speaking about civs with two leaders, I don't agree with those who quickly downvoted RR Teddy.

    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [13] (16-3) As I said, too weak early game. No good culture bonus in early-mid game. No production bonus for mounties. So it will be slow. (One thing good is you get era score for every national park, so late game golden ages are granted.)

    Catherine/France (Mag) [17]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [11]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [13]
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  11. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

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    Gender:
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    Catherine/France (Mag) [18] (17+1)
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [11]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10] (13-3)

    Catherine/France (Mag): The Tourism victory gets harder when the map gets larger. This is because it is harder to meet every civilization early on, have all the Open Border running cost money, and have all the Trade Route going need a ton of Harbor / Commercial Hub and need to be able to reach those far away civilization.
    This... does not affect to Catherine. Her project applies Tourism to all civilizations, even those she didn't met yet. The Tourism will stockpile but not added to your forein Tourism. Once you meet the civilization, all that stockpiled Tourism suddenly add to your foreign Tourism count. This means you could skip the early exploration to some extend, decreasing the number of threat in the process.
    Plus: the larger the map, the more numerous are the luxury ressources. The Tourism maths are made to make 200 Tourism on duel map be as powerful as 200 Tourism on a Huge map. The project gives 50 Culture and 50 Tourism per luxury surplus... except it is far easier to have luxury surplus in larger map setting. You don't need to own the luxuries to make it works: luxuries from City-States, Amani's Affluence, or traded luxury ressources work as well, so she just need to buy them to the AI. And since larger maps = more continent, and each continent = at least 4 luxury ressources, this make Catherine a unique civilization: a civilization that can work on larger maps setting, use production to yield Tourism, and that do not care to not meet anyone early on.
    So, is the Tourism from the project is that powerful? It is okay overall, but you can't count to win the game with only the project. But the power of project isn't the Tourism alone, it is also the Culture. This gives 50 Culture per luxury ressources. This means Catherine can finish the Civic tree faster than everyone: you end up to have 1 civic per turn just with the overflow, leading to unlock Rock Bands and Naturalists faster than everyone.
    In the end, Catherine the Magnificent is special. She is the best on larger map setting, and average on smaller maps. How you rate her depends how you play the game.

    Aside: I need to weight my judgement. I previously said that Rock Bands are that powerful to the point of investing Faith into Naturalists is not worth it. This is true... for small map settings. When the map gets bigger, the Rock Bands are only good against runaway civilization... that are likely to slot the Music Censorship anyway. So, Naturalists are interesting.
    There are different ways to play the Cultural game. On smaller maps, early Tourism and Rock Bands (against cultural civilizations) are the way to go, even some early Tourism rushes. On bigger maps, larger Culture and late Tourism is preferable (with National Parks and everything else).

    Canada: it is really weird to me. Slower start but "immune" to war. Does not care about Faith for National Parks because it can produce / buy the Mounties, have pocket money from Tourism (→ DP → Gold to AI) and Strategic Ressource, and a not spammable UI that can yield up to 10 Culture in the later late game but need Tundra. Canada does not shine in Tundra: it suffers less from it. It feels like the worst of the remaining civilization.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  12. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [11]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [2] (5 - 3): See my reasoning in my last post, because it's basically the same. In short, Japan is kind of similar to Greece, in that they has a half-off Theater Square with better than normal adjacencies, but also a half-off Holy Site that also has better adjacencies. Essentially, like Greece, you have a stronger Culture yield while also having stronger Faith yields. This is good, but without the sheer Culture gains that Greece gets, and no bonuses to Tourism baked into his kit, he comes off a bit worse for wear compared to who we have left here. Hojo's great at Culture victories and it's always a blast to play as him in any game, but I can't in good faith send him out after Cleo & Kupe, and he certainly is a degree below the others listed here.

    Cyrus/Persia [14] (13 + 1): Persia being this low is an absolute joke. Persia has literally everything you need to be successful in a Culture game. Does he have a Culture increase that helps him move quickly throughout the Civic tree? Yup, he's got that from his improvement and Satrapies. Does he have a bonus to Tourism? Yes, that Culture from the Pairidaeza will translate into Tourism at Flight. And on top of that, does he have a bonus to other sources of Tourism? Sure does, the Pairidaeza just straight up makes everything around it have more Tourism. I'm not sure you guys really get how important tile appeal is, but let's break it down: the Eiffel Tower is arguably the most important Wonder in a Culture game, tied with Christo Redentor, and the Pairidaeza essentially gives you an extra Eiffel Tower wherever you want it. Sure, you can point out that Egypt will give more tile appeal from stacking them together, but the Pairidaeza will more reliably have more Culture on its tile, giving itself more Tourism as well. The only thing I can really knock Persia for is not having a strong Faith economy, but to that point: neither does Catherine, Pericles, Teddy, Qin, or Kristina. Don't be fooled by the fact that Cyrus also has warmongering capabilities as well, all he needs is the Pairidaeza to be an S-Tier Culture Civ, and he is.
     
  13. JesseS

    JesseS Warlord

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    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [22-3=19] I think Bull Moose Teddy is a little overrated at this point. They’re the most map dependent of the remaining civs. If you don’t start near some high appeal tiles, you’re not going to get much of a bonus for a long time. While Persia, Egypt, and Ethiopia can easily control appeal with their unique improvements, America is left needing to luck out with high appeal lands and maybe bumping up a few tiles to breathtaking through districts and jungle/marsh chops. At conservation and/or with Eiffel Tower, your tile yields everywhere become incredible, but by that point the importance of culture and science is decreasing strongly in favor of raw tourism. Yes, you can use Reyna and Liang to help appeal, but that’s 6 governor titles, so you’re either delaying Pingala/Magnus/Amani or getting them late. The film studio is not relevant for fast finishes in single player, as it only applies to civs in the modern era or later. Their national parks are good, but America has no direct bonuses to faith to build all the ones you want.

    Qin Shi Huang/China [23+1=24] Early wonders are quite good for tourism, as they accumulate tourists for most of the game and scale up in tourism output as the eras go on. Each early wonder tends to attract about 6-8 tourists by the end of the game for me, or roughly as much as a finished theater square or holy site. Pyramids, Oracle, and Colosseum are 3 I try to build with any civ in a culture game, but China can get way more greedy than this. Apadana, Great Library, Temple of Artemis (if the land is right), Colossus, and even the Great Bath are worth it with China. With proper planning, China can use these wonders to build super high adjacency theater squares. Add in extra culture and science with inspirations/eurekas, more builder charges, and the Great Wall, and China is a cultural powerhouse both early and late game.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [2]
    Cyrus/Persia [14]
    Gorgo/Greece [11]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]
     
  14. ShrimpTruck

    ShrimpTruck Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Gender:
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    Cleopatra [3] (2 + 1)

    Cleopatra is the civ I have easily played the most as and when I play a Cleo game I don't really push for a victory I just try to build an interesting economically strong empire and just snag a sub t250 (decent) culture victory along the way (mind you without using sphinx appeal really at all). This is because Cleo's bonuses encourage you to do the same things your encouraged to do in a culture game: ally yourself with the world, construct large floodplains cities with many districts for science and culture, build wonders, and you can even get some faith from the sphinx, especially if they're next to your wonders. Other than the alliance/international trade bonus though these are all pretty minor, but together the production discounts and bit of bonus faith add up. And cultural alliances are so good. At tier 2 you get the Bologna suzerian bonus in a city just for sending a trade route to your cultural ally. And because you get additional alliance points you can reasonably reach this by the late renaissance/early industrial era--right as your culture victory is starting to ramp up. And your research and religious alliances will net you some easy faith and science. This in addition to the extra gold you'll be getting (which occasionally makes me feel like I'm playing Mali) is quite nice.

    Now Persia on the other hand is rewarded by his non-Pairidaeza bonuses for engaging in surprise wars and sending internal trade routes, both of which are quite antagonistic to a culture victory.

    In the sphinx vs. pairidaeza debate I'm on the side of the sphinx. If you're going for a culture victory, faith is a more valuable resource than gold and Egypt will be swimming in gold anyways from trade routes and the culture yields are decently similar. And for the appeal, even if you get city parks I would still prefer sphinxes since the city parks are so cumbersome to use. I just don't get why Persia is over 10 points above Egypt.

    Cyrus/Persia [10] (13 - 3) "Ice these no hopers early."

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [3]
    Cyrus/Persia [10]
    Gorgo/Greece [11]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [22]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]

    Edit: fixed missing votes
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    kryat likes this.
  15. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
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    The divergence of opinions and the varied strengths of this final 13 perhaps shows Firaxis has done well with the whole culture/tourism thing. To all those in disbelief that "fill in the blank" is definitively top five, I personally think that argument could be made for 12 of the civs left. Depending on individual play-style, settings, and preferences of course.

    A Tale of Two City-states

    As I've previously stated, the Queen of Sparta is as powerful as the First Citizen of Athens. Early culture is compounded into whatever your plan of attack is, while late extra culture doesn't necessarily mean more late tourism.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [3]
    Cyrus/Persia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [12] (11+1)
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19] (22-3)
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]


    Edit: Adjusted votes not in last post from post before. :crazyeye:
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  16. VanTao

    VanTao Chieftain

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    Gorgo/Greece [13] (12+1) - Japan seems to be a lost cause, so I’ll start supporting Gorgo, as she is starting to slip.

    Some may argue that I am overvaluing the benefit of early Culture, but similar to how Rome can win a very fast Culture victory, I believe that Gorgo’s ability to get to the key early civics much faster than most other civs is deceptively powerful and a strong advantage for a fast Culture game. Yes, her Culture yields drops after the early game, particularly compared to Pericles. However, this arguably isn’t that important if she is already ahead by 30+ turns and generating Tourism before most other civs due to having most if not all of the early Great Writers. As mentioned before, yes, GWoW have been nerfed. However, it still is one of the most reliable early sources of Tourism and can double with the relatively early Printing tech.

    Like Rome, Gorgo will get to Drama & Poetry a lot sooner (though with more variability than Rome). In my games with Gorgo, I have ranged between getting it at around Turn 40-50 (usually closer to 45), sometimes in the mid to high 30s, with a couple of games where I killed a bunch of units and had met a couple of Culture CS getting it slightly before Turn 30 (with Rome, I consistently can get it around Turn 35 ... thus, though I recognize Gorgo can sometimes get to TS faster and then leverage her cheaper TS that produces better Culture compared to Rome, I still feel Rome is slightly better because of consistency). This is HUGE. Most civs normally get it around Turn 70, if not later. Furthermore, unlike Rome, once at Drama & Poetry, Gorgo can build TS in half the time (on average saving you 8-10 turns in the early and mid game to to build something else) and get better Culture yields from those TS.

    Furthermore, Greece has the amazing extra Wildcard slot. This means she can compete for an early Pantheon (strong now with the nerf to first CS envoy) and eventually run Agoge, Colonization, and Ilkum at the same time. This offsets somewhat Rome’s advantage of not having to put Production / Gold into Monuments and applying it to something else.

    Again, though I am in the camp that, in general, early Culture to get to the key civics > late game Tourism from Flight from a UI that was reached via a weaker early Culture economy, this does not mean that I discount late game Tourism. The more Tourism, the better, because it means you win faster. It just means I think that early Culture is more impactful. Though Gorgo (and Rome, as well as Pericles and Japan) don’t have UI that generate Tourism at a Flight, being ahead by 30+ turns, particularly in your civics, means you get all the mid to late game Tourism generation before others and that Tourism is working for longer, which I would argue more than compensates for a lack of a UI. A Culture victory is about LIFETIME Tourists, so you want to get them earlier rather than later. It’s not like you can only have Tourism from early GW vs only late game Tourism. In my fast Culture victories, I want both. And like CrabHelmet has mentioned, though RNG dependent, you sometimes have City States that give you a good Culture UI, and because you’ll be ahead, you can probably be the suzerain of that CS. If that’s the case, hey, there’s your UI, which will be adding Tourism to the GWoW you already have.

    Most players admit the Civ is a snowball game. Thus, why for Culture victories is it being slightly discounted in this elimination thread? Again, I don’t want it to seem like I’m criticizing those who support late game Tourism. I want late game Tourism as well. I just want it to leverage a strong early game where I have several thousand of lifetime Tourism already built up.

    In fact, I think Sweden should end up in the Top 3, even though it has no benefits to early game Culture and can sometimes have difficulty doing well in general early (i.e. - surviving) on higher difficulties, simply because her mid to late game Tourism is STRONK. If left alone (but not too isolated, you want to be able to trade with other civs for the Tourism modifier), Sweden will exponentially jump ahead in Tourism. Rome and Sweden have had my best Culture victory times, with Gorgo, Pericles, and Japan (and Maori and China, for different reasons) close behind (though I’ve had some Sweden games with good but not great victory times due to having to put production into units to defend from an attack without the inherent bonuses of Rome that I’ve mentioned in my earlier posts ... with Rome, I consistently get the same Culture victory times unless I start in Tundra, though most civs save for Russia and Canada struggle in Tundra).

    My last comment is about Gorgo vs Pericles. While I think Pericles (and Japan) is a very good Culture civ, Pericles can’t normally compete with Gorgo (or Rome) when it come to getting to TS in the first place. Also, though I know CS are harder for the AI to outright capture than it used to be (though it still happens occasionally), good luck trying to get a whole bunch of suzerainties on higher difficulties (i.e. - more than 6, which equals +30% Culture for Pericles). Yes, Greece gets a lot of envoys from completing TS. However, I still find the AI tends to covet the CS you are in the lead with, and will flood it with envoys (including Apadana envoys, since the AI loves that wonder), Amani, magically completing CS missions that you have no idea if the AI actually met or not, etc. Thus, unless you are purposefully putting in 16 CS in your game, it is somewhat hard to get 10+ CS for 50%+ Culture, though once you get enough TS, you might eventually get there.

    Cleopatra/Egypt [ELIMINATED] (3-3) - I avoided downvoting her because I might be biased since I don’t play her that often and thus am remembering my old games (I have played 1 game with the post Sphinx buff). However, with the remaining civs, I think she should go, particularly before Japan (who will probably be eliminated right after anyway).

    She’s definitely been buffed and is no longer trash. Nubia still can do everything she can do District wise and better, but the Floodplain immunity and decent boost to Wonders on rivers is appreciated. And the +15% Production to TS if located adjacent to a river she might be Not that far behind Rome / Greece / Japan,

    The Sphinx is a solid UI in general and a wonderful one for Culture victories, I won’t deny it. Post Flight it has the double whammy of generating 2-3 Tourism plus technically adding +2 Tourism to your National Parks and Seaside Resorts as well as giving you more viable spots to place them in the first place.

    However, relying on appeal always requires a little bit of tile management, which is not always easy to rely on (“Man, this one tile next to these three Mountain tiles is the only way I can set up a National Park eventually, but that means I can’t place a good Holy Site now to get the Faith for that National Park ...”). In addition, you sometimes have to avoid Mines, though Lumber Mills offset this somewhat now.

    In addition, my criticism in general of UI that provide Culture is that you often don’t want to necessarily work all of them that you place early, which is why, they will tend to have a slower early game Culture economy compared to Rome, Greece, and Japan (which either get the Culture from adjacencies or inherently for free early). In the early game, I would argue Production and growth from Food are important in terms of tiles to be worked by Pop (Culture and Science are important, but again should arguably be gotten by adjacency / other means and not necessarily by worked tiles unless those tiles also have Production / Food). You want to be pumping out units / settlers and building districts. You want to be growing your Pop so that you can place districts. Often, you can’t afford to be working more than 1-2 of the tiles that you’ve place Culture UI on per city.

    Now, Sphinxes potentially avoid this by being able to be placed on high Food flood plains you are probably already working. Thus, they can actually take advantage of the +2 culture for a good Culture economy (eventually +3 with the late game Natural History civic). The Faith is great too as you should never undervalue Faith in a Culture victory. However, because they can’t be adjacent to each other, in the few games I played as Egypt (and the only 1 game post Sphinx biff), I normally had them on only 2 tiles (3 at the most) that were actually workable in the early to mid game.

    Given my preference for snowballing civs, though Egypt can potentially snowball in a Culture victory, I don’t believe they can do so as reliably.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cleopatra/Egypt [ELIMINATED] (3-3)
    Cyrus/Persia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [13] (12+1)
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Kupe/Maori [2]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]

    To keep up my trend of long posts, I would like to comment about China, since I don’t know if I’ll be able to vote in their favor if I keep propping up Gorgo.

    China is a WONDERful fast Culture civ, but with a completely different approach than my early Culture economy snowball favorites Rome, Greece, and Japan.

    As most players know, China should be rushing Wonders, hard. In fact, unlike the above civs (Rome and Greece in particular) where I’m trying to build both a large army and a whole bunch of settlers to go super wide, with China I instead focus on builders specifically, a large army, and settlers to a far lesser extent. Thus, I try to get Craftsmanship as fast as I can so I can run Agoge and Ilkum right away at the same time. It helps that China can actually place three improvements for the Craftsmanship inspiration while still saving a build charge for a chop, offsetting somewhat its lack of a reliable early Culture economy. The large army is meant to capture nearby cities to offset the fact that I’m not building as many settlers as I would with Rome / Greece (I will still tend to have less cities than Rome / Greece).

    Additionally, if you optimize and switch back-and-forth in your build queue between the army / builders you’re actually building and a Wonder to apply the builder charge to, you are technically building two things at once in a turn.

    If you build enough wonders, this means China will often be getting a good amount of Tourism before almost any other civ in the game, including my favorite, Rome. I normally can reliably get Temple of Artemis, Oracle, Pyramids, and Hanging Gardens. I will almost always get most of the Classical Age wonders, the most important being Great Library, Colosseum, and Mausoleum (and Petra of course for Petra porn, but it’s not “important” like the other two). I often can get Stonehenge if I quickly find a Natural Wonder and have Stone nearby (sometimes unfortunately not the case). Apadana is a little iffy. If I luck into early Culture yields, then it’s normally not a problem. If not, then the AI will often have gotten it, since they love it so much, particularly on higher difficulties. I will say 70-80% of the time, I get it, but there have been times I’m one-to-two builder charges away when the AI steals it.

    By doing this, you should have a healthy start at building lifetime Tourists super early to get a fast Culture victory.

    Admittedly, they don’t have a great direct early Culture economy compared. Great Wall is great in Culture post Castles tech, but that can be a somewhat awkward tech to reach. However, their stronger Inspirations (and Eurekas) help somewhat compensate this. In addition, getting a few of the Wonders that have Culture yields can help as well. However, the lower Culture generation in general is why I normally get faster wins as Rome, even though China has Wonders to offset.
     
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  17. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,836
    Hojo (2+1=3): I still don't understand how anyone could be downvoting one of the top 5 culture leaders already. It's not just the half-priced Theater Squares and Holy Sites. It's also the better adjacency bonuses to those districts. It's also the better adjacency bonuses to other districts, such as Commercial Hubs (lots of Gold) and Industrial Zones (lots of Production without building as many mines and quarries, which would lower appeal). And Hojo gets all of this right away, too.

    Kupe (2-3=ELIMINATED): No great writers is kind of a loss. None of the trees grant Tourism until Flight, which is pretty far into the game. No harvesting resources generally means fewer wonders, too. Eh.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [11]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [3]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]
     
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  18. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    2,235
    I'm going to judge this one based on No Reroll/Bad Start - i.e. who is most affected by a bad start, and who isn't. Kupe, the RNG king, just got eliminated, so that leaves terrain dependence for:

    Russia - The Lavra is still a GWAM generating half-priced holy site even without tundra.
    Canada - No tundra - and low appeal- makes them pretty useless. But since 'bad start' can also mean a start right next to a warmonger, that's a plus for them.
    Greece - No hills means no theater square, but their bonus wildcard starting spot still gives them more flexibility than:

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [16] 19 - 3- No appealing locations, you've basically got no bonuses until late game, barring a wildcard bonus Greece does better. Even your +5 combat bonus is gone to RR Teddy.

    I'd say the most immune to starting RNG are:

    Japan - half price districts are still half priced districts anywhere
    China - All their bonuses are essentially terrain independent

    Cyrus/Persia [12] 11 +1 - Pairidaeza has very few building restrictions. Bonus trade routes can be used internally or externally depending. And Cyrus's LUA is very effective against a potentially aggressive neighbor.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [12]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [3]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [16]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [10]
     
  19. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Honestly, I could care less about all the hoops you need to jump through to maximize Mag Cathy's special project - what I want to know is how does it actually stack up in a normal game where you don't game the system? I feel like she's skating by because a lot of us haven't played her yet.

    Peter/Russia [23] (26-3) Peter's got a huge hole in his game that nobody ever seems to want to talk about - food. Granted, he can take Feed the World to fix a lot of those issues, but that means giving up on choral music or work ethic which people keep bringing up as being a key strength of his. Seems to me like small cities will hold him back at least a little bit, and I'm not sure he's a clear cut #1 here.

    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [11] (10+1) BM Teddy might be my new favorite leader in the game, but while his parks may be stronger than Wilfrid Canada still has the stronger culture game. Wilfrid is criminally underrated in his ability to found a religion (since you can rush straight towards one due to complete immunity to war declarations) and as long as Peter's not in the game you've got a good shot at the Aurora pantheon. Wilfrid is likely to have a much stronger faith economy than Teddy is because of this, but even if he doesn't he has the huge advantage of not having to spend faith on national parks. Teddy will be waiting to accumulate 2000+ faith to buy a naturalist before too long while Wilfrid can just flat out produce Mounties or buy them with gold. Wilfrid will have more parks faster, AND he'll have all that unspent faith available for rock bands (something Teddy basically has to give up on in my experience). Finally, I think all the talk about "a restart = a loss" is great, but that gives Wilfrid yet another huge advantage that noone ever seems to want to give him credit for - in single player as Canada, you have literally no chance at being conquered by the AI. Talk about weak starts all you want... no AI is rushing Canada and wrecking your game as them.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [12]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [3]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [16]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [11]
     
    Jewelrunna likes this.
  20. Hogimus

    Hogimus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2019
    Messages:
    69
    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [12]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [ELIMINATED] I love Japan, but besides easy TS and HS and adjacencies, they don’t have a lot toward CV compared to those remaining, especially to seal the deal.
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [16]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12] (11+1) I don’t think they’ll take the top spot, but I think they’re more reliable for a CV than some who are left. Their slow start is used against them, but immunity to war gives them more reliability to survive and thrive.
     
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