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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    +1) Peter / Russia (23 >> 24) As a clear lead I hadn't voted him already, but the options become reduced. It is clear the Lavra is an ultimate, if unusual tool to Cultural Victory because, besides opening the Religious Tourism path, also supercharges Peter towards the Great Works path, both providing him more GWAM than space allows, and depriving others of these GWAM, wich means less culture for contenders, then less local tourism to be surpassed. Peter starts indeed the culture race with advantage from the ancient era (he does not need to wait for Theaters in classical), and while it is true others gain powerful bonuses along the way, he still can count on decent faith production to fight in the later stages (even without Dance of the Aurora). If someone benefits from the faith-culture-tourism sinergy, that's Peter.

    -3) Teddy Roosevelt / America (BM) (16 >> 13). On the other hand, as other explained above, Teddy's game is situational on finding high appeal tiles and obtaining the right panteon (Earth Godess) to support first, its advance to a point where he can make use of his tourism assets, and second the actual possibiltiy of using them. Sure, if you are able to find the promised high appeal land to settle and protect (er... uppps... without the +5 combat strenght now), you'll have a lot of punch on the endgame, but it maybe dificult to cope then with the high culture barriers set by someole like Peter, Pericles/Gorgo (or the gone Hojo and Pedro). Of course there is a small bonus on being able to slot additional wildcards, but to be true, except in the initial stages (i.e. the Great Prophet race), these make less and less difference as empires grow.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [12]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [20]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
  2. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    If America has no breathtaking tiles nearby, I'd argue they're roughly on par with Sweden. Both civs have incredibly impressive late game bonuses but nothing (in this case) to help them get there. If, on the other hand, America does have access to breathtaking tiles, then you're looking at this same late game power alongside an early game comparable to Rome's.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [12]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
  3. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [18]
    Cyrus/Persia [9] (12-3) - Egypt eliminated while Persia is at 12. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I'll try to keep in mind maybe you folks know something I don't. On paper Egypt looks like a much better civ. Even the sphinx is better imo than the paradise garden, which is all Persia has going for it in terms of culture except for one extra trade route with sartrapies.
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25] (24+1) - Peter won the RV elimination thread largely based on the Lavra. Wow, I guess it's a good unique or something. He's also my number one for culture victory. (I still haven't played Mag Cath yet though, but I'm getting a sense that while powerful, you need the stars to align?)
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [14]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
  4. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    Well, we're in the top ten now!

    Edit: @DogeEnricoDandolo pointed out a typo of mine. I typed "potent" when I meant "potential". I do think she's the most potential version, after all, people have been getting record times with her. It's just rather difficult and unreliable to tap that, hence my downvote. Sorry for any confusion I might have added.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [15] (18-3) She might be the most potential version of France, but she's still France. The Chateau comes way late, has finicky placement requirements, and is a weaker culture UI than the Pairidaeza, Sphinx (RIP), and Great Wall. The civ ability is one of the weakest around. A paltry 20% to some wonders, and double tourism isn't much when the base tourism is already underwhelming. What you have left is her project, which requires insane amounts of excess luxuries to even make some impact. Even having 4/5 excess luxuries midgame, and then running it several times will still get you zero tourists. It's almost like not having a leader Ability in the first place.
    Cyrus/Persia [9]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [15] (14+1) Don't forget the film studio! That 100% is huge once you tally up all your great works, walls, relics, national parks, seaside resorts, ski resorts, etc. It may come late, but it's a huge push badly needed in that point of the game where you need to be generating large amounts of tourism to get ahead and become dominant.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  5. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo Prince

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    How can someone be both the "most potent version" and "almost not having a leader" at the same time? If Mag Catherine is the most potent, she must be stronger than BQ Catherine, and BQ Catherine finished in at 12 and 7 in the leader elimination game after and before GS, so which one is it? Is Mag Catherine potent or not, because BQ Catherine is clearly way above average for most people.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [16] I feel most people underestimate projects cuz no one wants to run the same thing again and again, it feels like you just throw production away for nothing tangible a lot of the times, but this one is a lot different. It takes into account traded luxes and luxes from city-states + luxes granted by amani if she is in a CS that you are not the Suzerain of. No1 candidate for speed run cultural vic and the only one that can win without meeting everyone.

    Cyrus/Persia [6] Should really not be here at this time.
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [24]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [15]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
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  6. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [6]
    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]= [24+1] The extra builder charge is awesome and suits my style perfectly.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12] =[15-3] Needs to have more to be in the top 5. Canada level at best.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
  7. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [3] Persia is probably comparable to Egypt, and should kiss good bye soon.

    Gorgo/Greece [13]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13] Teddy can keep afloat in terms of science and culture in the ancient - classical era and once his districts are built, he would be ahead. Unlocking Radio quickly is no issue for Teddy.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]
     
  8. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [16]
    Cyrus/Persia [0] (3-3) ELIMINATED
    Gorgo/Greece [14] (13+1)
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [12]

    Cyrus' UI is being strongly overestimated. Nearly-as-good alternatives are available elsewhere, and Cyrus' aren't so much better that he ought to still be hanging around at this stage.

    Gorgo's early culture leads right into getting all the other sources of Tourism long before anyone else. I think she's basically as good as Pericles, the separation between them is only wafer thin and she shouldn't have fallen that far.

    I went and played a Menelik culture game last night, so now I feel I can vote on him better. He actually is really good at CV. You can focus on Holy Sites early without feeling like you are neglecting pushing your culture forward, which means you're set up for the later game when Culture stuff requires Faith without struggling in the early-game where having to split production between Holy Sites and Theatre Squares and everything else can cause problems. I feel like he is not as good as Peter and the Greeces, but IMO I probably gave him coming right after them out of the existing candidates.

    I've seen some people suggest he's a bit dependent on the right start of RNG in his environment but honestly, I don't think that's true. It's not like Peter where some times you start miles away from Tundra because the game ran out of spots to place you, there's always at least a few hill nearby, so Menelik can't really "lose" his advantages, he just has them slightly diminished, but they're so strong that doesn't seem super relevant. His real weakness is actually getting useful Pantheons/the really early opening start of the game where he doesn't have so much going. On Deity the AI often beats me to Choral Music unless none of them are that religiously interested, although Work Ethic and Jesuit Education are both fine choices. You also end up lacking in Great Works because while you don't lose culture early on, you're delaying Theatre Squares a bit for Religion (although Menelik has enough tools to compensate for this).

    Not voting for him because he's closer to his "true" position right now than Gorgo (who is better than him), but I'd love to see some good discussion of him, since he seems to not get much comment due to being so new.

    Really disappointed Hojo and Kupe are gone, poor choices IMO. They're both better than a lot of remaining Civs here (Wilfred, MagCath, Roosevelt, arguably Qin Shi Huang), but such is life.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  9. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Still feeling you guys did Cyrus dirty.

    Kristina/Sweden [18] (17+1) Unmatched Tourism generation if you play wide (which you already should be doing for a CV), super reliable theming and great economy from all the excess Diplomatic favor

    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9] (12-3) I find it weird how disproportionately powerful these 2 simultaneously released civs are. Canada has a bad early game (even if they can avoid surprise wars), a bad starting bias, worse UI and much worse way of denerating Diplomatic favor. At least Mounties have their National Park ability going for them, but at this point, I think it's Canada's time to leave.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [16]
    Gorgo/Greece [14]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9]
     
  10. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Sad to see Kupe & Japan go, they were in my personal top 5. But these things are all subjective and, I suspect, largely based on past enjoyment. I’ve always enjoyed my games as Kupe and Hojo, so I’m more likely to upvote him. But I’ve had several games as China where I was genuinely not having fun: early invasion puts a halt on wonder efforts, I fight off the invasion, but by the time that’s done I’ve lost Apadana and Oracle and Petra and now I’m left disillusioned and wanting to restart. That makes me personally more inclined to downvote China, whereas someone who’s only ever had fortunate rolls will probably think I’m mad for doing so.

    Anyway: upvoting Gorgo because, as I said previously, I much prefer her front-loaded bonus to Pericles’. All you need is to harvest three or four barbarian encampments, and maybe fight off an early invasion from a belligerent neighbour, and you’ll reach Political Philosophy, Acropolis, and Tier 2 governments in no time. And downvoting Catherine because I’ve tried her and I wasn’t impressed. No one remaining is particularly situational, apart from Catherine: Greece & Ethiopia require hills, but they’re found almost everywhere; Canada and Russia do well in tundra, but they can also do well outside of it; Teddy requires breathtaking tiles, but it’s not difficult to control that with strategic placement of holy sites, theatre squares, or chopping jungle. But Catherine is just regular France if she spawns away from luxuries; and in my attempts to roll and reroll as her, it’s become clear that this is actually the biggest limitation of any candidate left.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [13] (16-3)
    Gorgo/Greece [15] (14+1)
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [25]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9]
     
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  11. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

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    Certain wonders are great. But Qin is getting a repeat downvote from me. Wonder are more fickle at higher difficulty levels and there's always an opportunity cost. The production could have gone elsewhere.

    Menelik is getting my upvote this time. Even if you skip holy sites and religion, he can generate a lot of faith (and indirectly a small amount of culture and science). The bonus resources producing faith can be ridiculous on the right map, but smaller bonuses or rock-hewn church faith is meaningful even when you don't get a city with 6 of the same bonus resource.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [24] [23+1]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [25]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22] [25-3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9]
     
  12. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Teddy : Played him for the first time and found him surprisingly terrain dependant at first.

    Peter: Lots of faith and lots of GP


    Catherine/France (Mag) [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [24]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9]
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  13. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Teddy terrain dependent? Strength of Teddy is film studio, totally terrain independent. Teddy is the least dependent of any factor, except....
    difficulty.
    This is just a common civ for all difficulties except deity and partially immortal. But this is diff level civs should be rated, right?
    You can spam national parks, theme everything in wonders, produce absurd amoounts of faith and still NOT WIN CV. Simply because you have China, Persia, Greede, Kongo (...) as opponents. Simply because those civs will produce such amount of culture, that you will be forced to send spaceship anyway to win or take semidomination road to victory.
    But not America.
    Film studio is a building typically adding nearly 100 tourism in my main city, 40-60 in other cities. When you are happy seeing you generate 1000 tourism per turn and 30 turns to win, just imagine you multiply it with film studios and are below 10 turns to win. Ability to gain aditional 100% of base tourism is the factor to win games which are not possible to win by other civs

    America +1

    Downvote for Ethipia.
    Faith is the least important factor now, when rock bands are nerfed and AI loves music censorship. And because we are at elite stage now, someone has to be downvoted
    Menelik -3


    Catherine/France (Mag) [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [11]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [9]


    Voting slightly earlier as I leave soon.
     
  14. TeddyMain

    TeddyMain Warlord

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    Catherine/France (Mag) [13]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12] (11+1) I thought Teddy had a pretty great culture game pre-split, but BM Teddy is something else. Early science and culture bonuses help greatly to keep Teddy afloat in the early eras, and once he reaches the modern era, he's an absolute tourism monster: High appeal national parks and the 100% tourism bonus from the Film Studio can be a pretty nasty combo.
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6] (9-3) Canada is basically America but with a worse early game. They really have no early game bonuses, an awful start bias, and a worse UI compared to America. Russia may have that awful start bias in the tundra as well, but at least they get bonus yields and an early UD there that can keep them afloat early on. The only thing really going for them is the Mounties. Canada, you're great at a culture game, but it's about time you leave. 9th place ain't bad.
     
  15. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    I've made the argument time and time again, but I don't understand how you can say Wilfrid has no early bonuses when he's completely immune to AI war declarations. Assuming that you actually modify your strategy at the start of the game to take advantage of this, that's a big advantage - research Astrology first, build a couple of units while you wait, and then rush a religion while everyone else would still be worried about defending themselves from an early rush. I think people really underestimate the value of how many turns Canada can save by not having to build an army. If he goes out now, that's not a terrible showing... but I think he should probably outlast Cathy and I think I'd take his late game over Teddy's just because of the faith limitations BM has to deal with.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [10] (13-3) Downvoting Cathy because nobody has managed to convince me that outside of cheesing the game systems her project is anything special. If you have to intentionally grind your research progress to a halt after multiple re-rolls of the map to get much out of it I think I'll pass. The rest of France's kit has always been pretty mediocre.

    Menelik/Ethiopia [22] (21+1) Not only do rock hewn churches help give you one of the strongest faith economies in the game, they also give you a ton of tourism, you can have multiple churches per city, AND they boost appeal to help with national parks later on. Being able to faith buy museums and archaeologists is just the icing on top. He's really, really good.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [10]
    Gorgo/Greece [15]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]
     
  16. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    Crazy that Persia didn't make top 5. Pairidaeza is a monster and it encourages you to build Theater Squares *and* Holy Sites, both critical structures for CV.

    Sure you can get Moai, Batey, Colossal Head, or to a much lesser extent Alcazar, but none of those provide more Tourism than Pairidaeza because none of them also provide Appeal to boost National Parks and Seaside Resorts. And Persia is guaranteed to have Pairidaeza while there's no guarantee those States will be in game or that they survive and you maintain suzereinity. And there's nothing stopping Persia from getting both and combining one of those tile improvements where a Pairidaeza is not eligible.


    Meanwhile Gorgo has no business here. She is categorically worse than Pericles and all remaining. Sure she can get a strong general start, like Trajan, but like Trajan it rapidly falls off in value. Unlike Trajan, it's at a significant opportunity cost of buillding units and going to war (barbs aren't enough), instead of building settlers and laying down infrastructure. She will build fewer Acropolis by her very nature, and have less culture because she doesn't have the 5% gains of Pericles.

    Qin is strong. Builder charges on their own are stronger than any other ability for arguing well rounded flexibility and strong starts. Then he gets the extra eureka/inspiration credit. Then specifically for CV he has wonder boosting (in Ancient and Classical Eras when it is most powerful) and Great Wall. Lots of Wonders also means strong Theater Squares. He doesn't have Faith specifically, but he doesn't need it.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [10]
    Gorgo/Greece [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pericles/Greece [19]
    Peter/Russia [26]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]
     
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  17. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    @bengalryan9 For Catherine/France (Mag) you don't have to stop your science (if you focus on culture then the cost of projects are determined by civics anyway). You don't have to stop your civic either (you cannot since finishing projects also grant you culture.) To not finish civics as fast as possible (like leaving some 1 turn from done) is just a trick to make you win faster. If you don't you can probably win by Turn 100-130 as long as you do run the projects.

    Pericles/Greece [20] (19+1) The adjacency of Acropolis is very strong and it also get you envoy, which in turn get you 5% on culture from suzerainty.
    Peter/Russia [23] (26-3) Russia is very very strong. But I'm not convinced it's stronger than China or Greece. I think Russia is certainly top 3, but don't want it run away.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [10]
    Gorgo/Greece [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [22]
    Pericles/Greece [20]
    Peter/Russia [23]

    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]
     
    bengalryan9 likes this.
  18. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Oct 3, 2010
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    Menelik (22+1=23): I played my first game as Menelik last night and I was quite impressed. I was generating so much Faith that I didn't even know what to spend it on. Anyway, the point is that generating so much Faith also means generating lots of Science and Culture. Just building a couple of Holy Sites, taking Earth Goddess, and building some Churches allowed me open large leads in both Science and Culture by about turn 110. Nothing else really mattered after that. I could buy Rock Bands way before anyone could censor them. I had 3 national parks in the capital because every tile was good for it after I put down some Churches. So good. My fastest deity culture win yet, actually.

    Catherine (10 - 3 = 7): I don't like cheesy strategies. I'm hoping that a future patch fixes this one by moving the project to be a bit later so that it's not so easily spammed for turn 80 wins. Breaking the game is fun for YouTube, but it's not something that I want to use for ranking leaders. So, downvote for Catherine. She does have that great outfit, though...


    I still think y'all are wrong about Japan not being in the top 5, though. Certainly, Hojo is better than Gorgo or Catherine.

    Catherine/France (Mag) [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [20]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]

    EDIT: Fixed!
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
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  19. kryat

    kryat King

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    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13] (12+1) Incredible early culture, incredible late culture. Flies through the tech tree faster than anyone else on this remaining list. Getting earth goddess isn’t too hard anymore, and it gives him an incredible faith economy. And lastly, he has the most powerful national parks, than power up not just his parks, but many other tiles. Oh, and they all get doubled by the film studio you’ll reach incredibly fast due to his great science.

    Peter/Russia [20] (23-3) The Lavra is great, but it’s not enough alone. Others will get great writers, leaving Peter with the same culture as everyone else, eventually. Past that, no bonus culture (unless you count trade routes, and you hopefully aren’t behind on that). No bonus to tourism past possibly having earlier great works. The extra great musicians sit around doing nothing till you get radio. It’s better to have culture tiles you can work immediately than waiting for a building to be built.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [20]
    Peter/Russia [20]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [13]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]
     
  20. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Been out all day so missed my normal early morning UK slot.

    Not in my opinion, deity is like a different game - personally I think it should be ignored in these types of debates (or we should do them grouped by difficulty). All respect to those who play Deity but it's more like work than fun for me.

    Crazy they outlasted Rome and Japan!

    Some strong contenders here but a couple who don't belong - Gorgo, Teddy and maybe Catherine (not quite sure about her - haven't found her project that great but maybe I just don't know all the tricks). Going to downvote Teddy this time, going to repeat a formulation @enKage used and I thought was quite helpful - for my playstyle and at the levels I play at (King / Emperor) Teddy is not anywhere near top 10, Film Studio might be great but the game is basically over when you discover it. Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [10] 13-3.

    There are some worthy civs at the top and we'll get to them in a bit but I'm going to upvote Wilfrid Laurier as he gets off to a cracking start due to not having to worry about surprise wars (and often any wars if you carefully manage diplomacy) letting him concentrate on faith and culture. Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [7] 6+1.


    Catherine/France (Mag) [7]
    Gorgo/Greece [12]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [23]
    Pericles/Greece [20]
    Peter/Russia [20]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [10]
    Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [6]
     
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