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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Gorgo/Greece [5]
    Kristina/Sweden [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [19]
    Pericles/Greece [17]
    Peter/Russia [21]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]

    America +1
    Even if you start in low appeal area, this is very unlikely you won't get a single high appeal tile worth working. And always you can prioritise your 2nd city for better appeal, Teddy is now Rome on steroids. Who has better starts here than Teddy that some of you think he is the most start dependent? Ethiopian churcg comes at Drama, Peter's faith needs forest tundra or resource to be worth working. Teddy's start has high chance to start with bonus yields from turn 1 and it is impossible to be worse at start than any other leader left, except sometimes Russia.
    Later it snowballs, if you want culture victory, simply because: a) theatres rise appeal b) wonders rise appeal and you want both for CV c) holy sites raise appeal and you want some faith for national parks. Going further d) TR BM national parks rise appeal and you will reach parks earlier from easy bonus culture.
    The only weakness of Teddy is that there are lower difficulties where film studio does not work - but OTOH if you play lower difficulties, it means you don't outtech AI and AI is able to enter modern era at correct timing.
    Summary, why I think Teddy should be in top3 (if not a winner)
    a) other civs rely on one or the most 2 sources of tourism, improving their effectivness, f.e Kristina doubles every museum and can get maximum 16 more tourism from a lotted wonder, Peter relies heavily on faith, because producing great works or buying them is not a big difference. Film studio doubles tourism from all possibles sources, and +100 additional tourism from your main city from only one building is a gamebraker
    b) you can spam faith as Ethipia to buy national parks, but remember Teddys gets effectively +12 tuorism from every park (+1 raised appeal, +2 culture per tile). And grants even more tourism from tiles outside NP by rising appeal for more +2 culture (what is certainly more than what you will get from churches. In every 5 turns you can produce strong torism city: settle tundra, send Reyna to buy tiles, theatre (and all building - you have cash for it, because you trade away favors, right?) and raise appeal, plant some forests and place NP to get +2 culture per tile. Enjoy new 60 tourism city every 5 turns
    c) other civs are not so effective against culture spammers and there are setups when it would be impossible to win before spaceship without enetring semidomination route. Teddy is immune to it.
    d) converting diplocards to wildcards means you can slot more tourism cards at the same time and supplies gold via favor trading to buy any great work at the time that great work is created


    Pericles -3
    half priced theatres is not enough to justify staying here. Not a single bonus to torism. OK, you can unlock +50% earlier than many civs, but Teddy would have his +100% even faster and would get +50% similar time if not earlier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  2. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Gorgo/Greece [2] (5-3) I like Gorgo and all, but sometimes you just don't see that many barbarians. She's no less map dependent than others that have received that criticism.

    Menelik/Ethiopia [20] (19+1)

    You'd be imagining wrong, as I play on deity and beat out Russia, China, and Kongo with him. Who cares about how strong his holy sites are - you'll only need one to found a religion (you'll get more than enough faith from rock hewn churches) - and if you want to criticize him for not being able to make effective use of Work Ethic production that applies to 6/7 leaders left on the list. The "lack of production" criticism I've seen people make is something I have yet to experience as him - he has such a strong hill bias that his cities are likely to have just as many mines as any non-Ethiopian city (since rock hewn churches can't be next to each other). He's really, really good.


    Gorgo/Greece [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [20]
    Pericles/Greece [17]
    Peter/Russia [21]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
     
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  3. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

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    Qin/China [7] (10-3) Purely because I’d say Gorgo, who is about to go, is more reliable than Qin. Maybe I’m not good enough, but I find China kinda difficult. Wonder rushing is a high-risk strategy. Even when I used to play on sub-deity difficulties, I often got caught out by an aggressive neighbor because I was devoting too many hammers into builders and not enough into campuses or military. Also, unless you rush an early monument or an early campus there’s no guarantee you’ll even reach the wonders before the AI has built them, at least in my experience; but when are you supposed to fit that monument & campus into your early build queue?

    Peter/Russia [22] (21+1) the winner in my eyes. Extra land = better start. Tundra holy sites = insane work ethic production. Lavra = first religion & high faith output. Lavra = monopoly on nearly every GWAM. This last point needs emphasis: if you’re Peter, there’s basically no way the AI is getting a single great work for almost all the game. That’s a lot of defensive culture you don’t need to overcome. So even if you don’t have the space for all those GWAMs - something some people have used as a reason to downvote Peter - you’re still denying them from the AI, which makes your victory that much quicker.

    Gorgo/Greece [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [16]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [20]
    Pericles/Greece [17]
    Peter/Russia [22] (21+1)
    Qin Shi Huang/China [7] (10-3)
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [12]
     
  4. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Teddy's Culture on breathtaking tiles doesn't provide extra Tourism. But, for what it's worth, the Faith from Earth Goddess does provide an extra +2 Tourism on Rock-Hewn Church tiles if they're breathtaking!

    Kristina (16+1=17): Auto-theming, themed wonders, early Tourism from the open-air museum, Nobel prizes, and an extra government plaza building to hold more great works. What's not to like?

    Teddy (12-3=9): Too map-dependent to get a top spot. Sure, you can eventually make your tiles breathtaking, but you aren't guaranteed to have any such tiles early. Besides the possible bonus culture and science, Teddy doesn't really get much until Conservation and the modern era.


    Gorgo/Greece [2]
    Kristina/Sweden [17]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [20]
    Pericles/Greece [17]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]
     
  5. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Holy heck, I woke up shocked to see the rapid collapse of China. I didn't think he quite deserved first place, but Jesus Christ dude.

    Gorgo/Greece [ELIMINATED]
    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [20]
    Pericles/Greece [17]
    Peter/Russia [22]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]

    Gorgo/Greece [ELIMINATED] (2 - 3): Essentially all of the criticisms I had for Pericles also apply to Gorgo, except that with Gorgo, you trade off the sheer amount of late-game Culture for a sharp boost in early game Culture. While I'm not going to downplay the advantages of getting early game Culture, one thing that's important to note about Thermopylae is that eventually your extra Culture from that ability... dries up. Eventually, you're not going to have any barbarians to farm, and it might not be the best idea to wage late-game wars for the sole purpose of getting extra Culture. And even though the Culture bonus sort of scales with unit combat strength, that still is going to be pretty irrelevant in the pushes for important late game Civics like Humanism, Natural History, etc. Really I think she should've gone much earlier.

    Kristina/Sweden [18] (17 + 1): Like I've said with the previous post I made, the juggernauts of late-game Tourism are Teddy and Kristina. However, unlike Teddy who is entirely dependent on his late game, Kristina is capable of a lot of cheese. Through strats involving the Great Library, Kristina can win Culture Victories pre-turn 150 on Standard Speed. It's actually insane. So with Kristina, if you can get those early-game Great Works-holding Wonders, you can cheese your way to an easy win. Even if you can't though, only Teddy can really keep up with her late-game Tourism. I'm fully backing Sweden for a win here now.
     
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  6. xaiviax

    xaiviax Chieftain Supporter

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    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [20]
    Pericles/Greece [14] (17-3) Athens mourns Sparta.
    Peter/Russia [23] (22+1) The Great has true admiration for Menelik and Kristina, the true competition.

    Qin Shi Huang/China [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [17] (20-3) unimpressed, as a player sure you can beat every AI to a CV, but does Menelik get there first? Nah. Too many civs have very serious bonuses, including teddies Film Studio which will not beat Pericles but will Menelik. 1 more tech to get but lots more tourism. Screw the appeal, roll on elvis movies. Teddy has +5 everywhere at the start, no need to huddle on hills and dat wildcard is truly a difference maker as it is for Pericles.
    Pericles/Greece [15] (14+1) you do not need 10 cities to win culture, you do not need religion. The culture adjacency, half price theaters and raw culture bonus means you do not even need science. It is about districts, in particular theaters and trader based ones. Speed is of the essence and he only needs 2 districts.... and lots of envoys... oh yeah. Wild as a wildcard, this chap is culture from start to end. And over before flight.
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [7]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  8. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    +1) Qin Shi Huang / China (7 >> 8) Upvoting again Qin, as he has fallen too low. As it has been say he is much more than wonders. Extra builder charges have much more uses than wonders (such as helping your cities grow faster and produce more). He may not be the greatest cuture producer, but if that is needed to rush trough the three, ¿isn't cutting costs in each of them also valid?

    -3) Pericles / Greece (15 >> 12) On the other hand, Greece has the potential to get a lot of Great People to fill his half-priced Acropolis, but this is a district which comes with a malus: can only be built on hills. And this means in some cities you will be losing early production, or getting subpar adjacencies. In certain cities you might even not be able to build it. And this is the district that is pivotal of any cultural strategy with Greece.

    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [17]
    Pericles/Greece [12]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [8]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  9. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Moderator Action: Two non-voting posts removed. Continued posting with no vote will result in thread bans.

    Moderator Action: edit - an objection has been raised concerning the correctness of this information.
    Moderator Action: Please take into consideration this may not be an accurate statement and requires verification
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  10. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [17]
    Pericles/Greece [12]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [9]=[8+1] Builder charge and early wonders make China better than Bullwinkle.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]

    Moderator Action: No explanation for downvote so vote discounted --NZ
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  11. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    @Ferocitus no explanation for downvoting Teddy?

    I don't understand why Sweden and Ethiopia are higher than Greece and China.

    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14] (17-3) Good faith economy, but doesn't have any powerful early game bonus.
    Pericles/Greece [12]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [10] (9+1) If you truly understand how Apadana and Wonders (and Great Walls) changes China's game then you will know how powerful it is. I understand that some people "don't get it", it's certainly not some bonus that appear clear to everyone how to take advantage of.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [9]

    Finally I'd like to take this chance to say something about Magnificent Catherine's France (maybe it worth a separate post, but anyway let me put it here first). I was the one who made people focus on the "cheesy" speed wins. Those are the ones you win sub T80 if you are super lucky, and for regular games (if you take advantage of some "cheesy" techniques) you can win sub T95 without pray to RNG god. TBH I don't think this was intended use of the Court Festival project.

    I believe the intended usage is probably for the "boring" late game of culture victory, where you use builders to actively improve everything to gain tourism, but your cities don't have anything good to produce (I just finished my 6otM91, deity Greece culture victory on archipelago map on T178, but for the last 35 turns many cities are just kinda idle, running science or culture projects, which are not that meaningful for culture victory, I ended up building walls for the tiny amount of tourism they provide after conservation). If any civ have a project that gives tourism, then they can certainly spam those projects in those late game, to accelerate the victory a little bit.

    A more balanced change for the Court Festival would be
    • On unlock (drama and poetry), provide 30 culture and tourism per extra luxury.
    • After Medieval Faires, provide 50 culture and tourism per extra luxury.
    • After Opera and Ballet, provide 70 culture and tourism per extra luxury.
    Then good players can try to do a speedy run on Medieval Faires and regular players can take advantage of it in late game after Opera and Ballet for a more meaningful late game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  12. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Pericles/Greece [13] 12 + 1 - I don't know why people are claiming he has 'no bonus to tourism'. That's like claiming Peter has no bonus to religion. They both have half priced districts of the preeminent respective GPP generators. Additionally, Pericles will sail through the culture tree and get all the relevant policy cards first. He can suzerain any cultural cs. He can grab a religion if he wants thanks to the wildcards spot. He will also be very hard to dominate culturally with his insane output.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [6] - Great if you start near a natural wonder, but otherwise not going to get many bonuses until later game. Most the rest of this list will have already sailed past him in the tree. Culture and Science from breathtaking tiles is nice, but the Alcazar - which does the same, plus defensive bonus, plus culture that actually turns into tourism - couldn't even get Granada into the top 15 City States. Unlike the already eliminated Persia and Egypt, he has no special tools to increase appeal to create national parks. And National Parks are one of the weaker sources of tourism. The film studio is strong, but comes late, and as noted, he doesn't have a lot of bonuses to get him there quickly.

    Kristina/Sweden [18]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [13]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [10]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [6]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
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  13. Hokie Fan

    Hokie Fan Chieftain

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    Kristina/Sweden [15] (18-3). I find that I’m biased towards early game bonuses and Sweden has none. Sweden can be a very fun civ once you set up an empire, but compared to the other civs, Sweden can struggle to do so. I’d probably slot Sweden between four and six.
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [13]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [11] (10 + 1). The Great Wall is very spammable with a small bit of planning. Ignoring that, as others have mentioned, China allows you access to really good wonders that you would never otherwise get, such as Apadana. Plus, having an extra build charge at the beginning of the game just sets you up incredibly well. These are two very strong early game bonuses, plus a UI that can significantly boost your culture at castles. Top three in my view.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
  14. Dantesedge

    Dantesedge Chieftain

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    I took two days off. Missed quite a bit it seems.

    Pericles/Greece [14] (13+1) I find Greece - both Pericles and Gorgo - to be very boring to play and I wasn't expecting Pericles to be this low that I would actually have to throw him a vote. His tourism bonuses come from the fact that he can throw down half-off TS with good culture yields and then, coupled with suzerainty of some CS's, can absolutely skyrocket through the culture tree to activate those sweet, sweet tourism modifiers before anyone else (I understand Teddy has the film studio but civics has always seemed faster to me than science and Pericles just swims in culture in the mid-to-end game). By this point, he has a lot of GWAM's to multiply. It's super boring, I hate playing him... but it's effective. He deserves top 3.

    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3] (6-3) I just finished my first Teddy BM game. It was superb. The early science and culture, the parks, the movie studio... T-BM has a great culture game, especially the moment that 100% multiplier kicks in. However, everyone else left has a strong culture game too and after staring at the list of leftovers for the past 30 minutes and constantly changing my mind on who gets the down vote and trying to figure out
    why, this was the only one that made sense at this stage. I find Kristina's auto-theming and UI, Menelik's faith-to-tourism and fast archaeologists, and Qin's UI and a ton of early wonders to be slightly stronger than the huge endgame that Teddy has. I've won faster victories with the other civs. Heck, I find Canada to better and they're already gone (no faith NPs). In the end, I wish Teddy BM could make it to the final five - he's a lot more fun than Pericles - but I can't justify it over the others.

    Kristina/Sweden [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [14]
    Peter/Russia [23]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [11]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
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  15. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Kristina/Sweden [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [11] (14-3) - Struggled to choose whom to downvote. The acropolis has to be on a hill, and you may not have a lot of hills to go around. Minor critique obviously but someone has to lose. Another downside is lower adjacency bonus from wonders. Also, Greece lacks an improvement that provides tourism, such as great wall or open air museum.
    Peter/Russia [24] (23+1) - I think Russia should ultimately finish first. Lavra provides enough great people points to get the first sets well before anyone else can compete. Faith has uses throughout culture victory game; also, fast religion can buff shrines and temples to provide culture as an additional augment (or reliquaries, which is strong!).
    Qin Shi Huang/China [11]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  16. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    This is pretty tough at this point. All these civs are deserving of the top 5; playing all of them will make CV a breeze. I also enjoy all the different opinions people have had on here. It's opened up my eyes on a lot of strategies.

    Kristina/Sweden [15]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [12] (11+1) You get off to a fast culture start with that extra wildcard and Acropolis. Once you start controlling a couple city states, you just snowball like crazy and get a huge lead over other civs. Fast culture both early and late game. You will be unlocking wonders, and reaching museums, broadcast towers, parks, and resorts far earlier than normal. I like my Pericles games because I get off to a culture lead early and never look back.
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [8] (11-3) Maybe I am missing something, but is the Apadana really that strong? It's two slots and +2 envoys (and an additional +2 for subsequent wonders in that city). Having an extra two slots is nice, but not groundbreaking, but the envoys only start coming after you've built it. As China, you've probably already built a couple wonders already, like the Pyramids, so how many more wonders are you going to be building in that city? Plus once you get to medieval, your wonder bonus is no more. I'm also not the biggest fan of devoting so much time and resources to building wonders in the early game when an aggressive neighbor could really put a damper in those plans. China is a great all-around civ, but I think they get left behind by the other 4 civs which are designed around culture a little better.
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  17. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Kristina/Sweden [12] (15 - 3)
    Initially wanting to downvote Pericles because the differentiating factor between Gorgo and Pericles is just early game culture vs late game culture.

    I think Sweden is a more worthy choice; it has the "Spain syndrome" or "pre-NFP America" syndrome - that is they have too many things they want to do in order to set themselves up for success. Hear me out: the biggest selling point of Sweden is autotheming with wonders and autotheme museums. Naturally, for quick CV Apadana and Great Library are wonders that you want to strive for early game. So you want two campuses to get boost for Great Library, but the obvious opportunity cost is having later theatre squares and you cannot earn great works as quickly enough.

    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [12]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [9] (8 + 1)
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
    I think great work of writing gives as much tourism as wonders, they start with 2 tourism (like GW) and + 1 for every era.
    On the other hand, GW gets doubled when you hit printing, and any further boosts to wonder only comes with policy cards late game or Pingala Curator promotion.
    Writing also requires mandatory amphitheatre, but as for wonders, usually you would have built the required infrastructure for them anyways.
    Compared to most civs, I think China has the smallest opportunity cost when going for ancient/classical era wonders; your chops are preserved for other infrastructure or even military units and you turn one builder into ~90% of production of a wonder, which is pretty insane. Great wall requires some planning but otherwise is very spammable and your culture and gold skyrocket with China upon hitting castles. I think should be more highly rated than other civs in the list.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
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  18. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    This top 5 already looks completely different to any I would make: it would contain Kupe and Gorgo, for a start. The biggest one is that, in my opinion, China should not be here. Once again, too many people are vastly underestimating the importance of actual culture. Tourism is what wins, yes; but having crazy high culture results in a much faster tourism victory, because you reach all the important tourism generators faster than any other means. And I’m not talking super-fast Apadana or Great Library strategies here, because those kind of speeds runs represent 0.00001% of player experiences. I’m talking actual, realistic games you or I might play. So Pericles gets the upvote, and China gets the downvote: one it is almost impossible not to win a tourism victory, simply by virtue of his insane culture yields and his GWAMs; the other only really does well during elite-level niche strategies which don’t interest me at all (just like with MG Catherine) and has no intrinsic help to culture generation.

    Kristina/Sweden [12]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [13] (12+1)
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [6] (9-3)
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  19. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Kristina/Sweden [9] (12-3) I get what you're saying @TCBB, and for what it's worth I agree that Kupe & Gorgo deserved top 5, but it seems your argument applies better to Sweden than China. Sweden has nothing, genuinely nothing, to help her advance through the civics tree and reach museums or rock bands or whatever. Once she reaches that point, she hits a massive power spike; but she will *not* get there faster than the other 4 (or indeed Kupe & Gorgo, hence why I wanted them here). So as you say, her position here seems to rest solely on that Great Library / Apadana theming strategy. I tried it once as Kristina: guess what happened? I wasn't earning enough culture to reach either wonder in time, I got beat to both, so I rerolled and played a 'normal' game instead.

    Pericles/Greece [14] I never thought Pericles would struggle to get into top 3. He is the unrivalled king of culture generation. While Kristina and Qin are languishing in the renaissance era, Pericles has broken through to atomic era, is pumping out 600 culture per turn, is grabbing all the GWAMs, and has arrived at your door with +25% tourism from Environmentalism and an army of Rock Bands. The only reason I think Russia are *even* better is because Russia gets the much easier & stronger start, including an effortless religion and guaranteed early golden age.

    Kristina/Sweden [9] (12-3)

    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [14] (13+1)
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [6]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
  20. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    711
    @TCBB I am completely and utterly agreed. I just tried a Teddy game now to make sure my understanding of Cultural Victories is correct, on Deity, and it's just obvious that he's far too slow for most of the game. Getting extra late Tourism isn't 'good' for him, it's 'necessary' because of how slow Teddy is up to that point and how far ahead everyone else is on Culture. Frankly I am convinced there's a lot of people in here who haven't really worked out 'fast' Cultural Victories and how important powering through the Culture tree very early on actually is. When you get to key Tourism stuff faster than other Civs, you're a) getting Tourism earlier and b) their Culture is weaker. It's just so much more impactful than getting extra Tourism points later on. I am a bit disappointed with this elimination thread and it has been (to my mind) the least accurate of the elimination threads I've participated on. Having Civs like Hojo and Kupe gone so early, and Gorgo not even making top 5? Meh.

    It's also baffling to say stuff like "Pericles needs hills, so he's inconsistent" like @Francel did, for several reasons. 1. Hills are everywhere. To get an Acropolis working, you don't even need to settle on a hill, just adjacent one. There's no way you can fail to do this when settling. I've never played a Civ game where there was an area larger than about 4x4 without a single hill at all in it, or at least that's such a rare occurrence it barely features in my memory. 2. To the extent Hills are a problem (they're not), Menelik has this problem worse, since he needs to settle on a hill rather than merely next to one and have spare hills around. 3. Pericles is much less inconsistent than Qin Shi Huang. Qin Shi Huang has a great game... under perfect conditions. Now suppose you're just getting started, then an AI DoWs early. You shift all your production to the necessary defensive units, miss the Apadana and the Oracle as a result, and suddenly you're not even getting started. Qin Shi Huang requires a peaceful early-game to do well on higher difficulties, and frankly the odds there's not a grumpy AI nearby are much lower than the odds there are no hills nearby. To be honest, I don't really get how you can be more consistent than Pericles. You're drowning in Envoys, control every culturally relevant City-State for loads of tasty early-game yields without much work, spew forward GWAMs, get to every point on the Culture tree miles ahead of everyone else, almost never miss the Pantheon you want while having good early Production at the same time - it's such a strong and reliable start, that absolutely rocket launches you towards the later Tourism stuff as well.

    @Drivingrevilo Kristina narrowly avoided a down-vote for me purely because in the early-game, unlike Qin Shi Huang, she doesn't have split priorities. She has no early bonuses, but she has no early distractions. If there's an early war, it hasn't dragged me out of the game that badly. She can do all the basics safely, and, of all the 'later Tourism' Civs, she does have the best one, so I will credit her there. If there's one Civ that can get away with a little bit of a slow start, it may be Kristina. Qin Shi Huang suffers from the fact Wonders are competitive and exclusive - only one person gets them. If you fail to get key ones and your strategy revolved around that... you're out of the game. Done. You're not coming back. Kristina at least can weather a few misfortunes because her key strengths do not rely so much on something she can outright miss.

    My internal ranking is this:

    1. Pericles
    2. Peter
    3. Menelik
    4. Kristina
    5. Qin Shi Huang

    I think I could discuss the values of Pericles vs Peter, for sure - they're both extremely good, although Pericles has the slight edge here which we can discuss later in full when it gets to that. I can't see my opinion on the others changing, and I've been playing quite a few Cultural games during this thread to make sure I'm not just being blinded or haven't tried something properly.

    Kristina/Sweden [9]
    Menelik/Ethiopia [14]
    Pericles/Greece [15]
    Peter/Russia [24]
    Qin Shi Huang/China [3]
    Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [3]

    I'd implore some of the posters who are Pericles skeptical to just try a game where you aggressively go after Acropoles early and really focus on maximising Cultural output as much as is possible early on, and see just how quickly you get through things. Don't think "oh, I'll play a normal-ish set-up for Science or Domination" and focus on science and production early on. You don't need as much of either of those for Culture, since you "make"/"produce" your winning weapons through Theatre Squares (and later Holy Site) and only need production insofar as it lets you build them quickly (but Pericles' are already super cheap). Just go all in on culture, culture, culture, and see the impact it has if you really prioritise it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2020
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