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Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kryat, Jul 28, 2020.

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  1. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Pericles/Greece [11] (14-3) -
    Peter/Russia [15] (14+1) -


    I took some flak for my post last night, in which I downvoted Pericles. I appreciate you beautiful nerds, being as passionate about games as I am:)
    I predict ultimately, despite my downvotes, Pericles is going to finish in first place.

    Let me try to defend myself.

    Firstly, I said it was hard to choose from the ones left, and someone had to lose. Secondly, the hill critique was noted to be minor, although I stand by it.

    The two most important reasons I downvoted Pericles (even though he is superb) are that he lacks a spammable source of tourism such as great wall or open museum, and also that he lacks any bonus to faith generation. My play definitely isn't the fastest or the most optimal. I'm not winning incredibly quickly or efficiently, although I do play the higher difficulties. Nonetheless, I like faith. Faith is my favorite. Great people, naturalists, rock bands... fun times for me. Moreover, religion can be used to facilitate a culture victory in different ways. As mentioned, shrines and temples can provide culture, and relics can output triple tourism with reliquaries. Imagine a city with MSM and SBC filled with relics and reliquaries - that would provide 32x7 = 224 tourism. If you don't care about faith or religion in your games, or care very little, then I see why you would rate Pericles higher than Peter. Different strokes and all.

    Circling back to the hill thing, it wasn't so much that you won't have any hills, but that you might not have many. If you don't have much production, working the hill might be important. Production is king. Yes, it's a minor point but I brought it up for completeness. All things being equal I plop districts on the tiles with lower yields. Also, the wonder adjacency bonus is half as much. Yes, Pericles makes up for it in droves, but we are talking about separating the best of the best in the final stage.

    Finally, regarding Pericles, the extra culture per suzerainity amps up and becomes stronger over time, in contrast to Gorgo's ability, which starts out at it's strongest and becomes weaker over time. At the start, this ability is not a huge impact. Assume it's ancient era, near the start of the game, and you are cranking out a measly 10 culture per turn. With luck, you get an envoy in a hut, do a city state quest, and become suzerain of a city-state. Plus 5% means you are now getting 10.5 culture per turn. It's not what I'd call dramatic until you're already generating a fair bit of culture, say 100 or more.

    Peter starts strong and ends strong. He has faith, religion benefits, and gwam - a complete package.

    This will no doubt be my last post in this thread so let me end on a note of thanks. Thank you so much for the thoughtful analyses and passionate arguments. Thank you to the mods for keeping everything in order, and to kyrat for getting the ball rolling.

    See you in the next elimination thread!
     
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  2. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    Pericles/Greece [8] (11-3)
    Peter/Russia [16] (15+1)

    In my games as Peter, I'm trying not to win culture as I want to go other victories and I'm still very close to winning. His culture game starts early and with GWAM goes throughout the game. Faith is useful for everything.
    Pericles, his culture is strong, but I don't think it is versatile enough. It is much more work to try to win culture imo. It's the faith generation that is lacking for things like rock bands and naturalists. I'd put him about the same as Gorgo. Kristina was robbed second place imo.
     
  3. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Pericles/Greece [5] (8 - 3)
    Peter/Russia [17] (16 + 1)
    Basically matter of taste. I prefer Russia over Greece? Feed the world is very inconsequential, you can do grassland - tundra settles. Even without work ethic, I think Russia is one of the top few civs that has a chance of obtaining choral music for good culture output. With work ethics monuments and wonders and district become cheap and even cheaper after theology.
     
  4. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Pericles/Greece [2] (5-3)
    Peter/Russia [18] (17+1)


    I honestly think Russia is the best civ in the game as it stands, purely because of the insane boost to Work Ethic. His games are so, so easy at the moment. Extra land upon founding your capital makes sure you have great workable tiles; as long as one of those tiles is tundra, you’re almost guaranteed to grab first pantheon; assuming you’ve rushed Astrology, you now place your Lavra; within a matter of turns, you’ve earned your Great Prophet and your first Great Writer; and once you pick Work Ethic, hey presto, you’ve got extremely productive cities that are also churning out high faith, which perfectly aligns with the Monumentality golden age you’ve now earned from your pantheon / Lavra / religion.

    This amazing start propels Russia into first place in my eyes. And unless the devs nerf Work Ethic, I think Peter is going to remain there in first overall, challenged only by Korea and her science game.
     
  5. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Pericles/Greece [3] (2+1)
    Peter/Russia [15] (18-3)
    Both worthy contenders, and the correct top 2, but at this stage you have to nitpick. Russia's tundra bias means they really need Feed the World but that means passing up Work Ethic. Pericles has no such issues so he gets my upvote and Peter down.


    Pericles/Greece [3]
    Peter/Russia [15]
     
  6. Drivingrevilo

    Drivingrevilo Warlord

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    Pericles/Greece [ELIMINATED]
    Peter/Russia [16]

    As you say, two extremely worthy contenders. I remember saying right at the beginning that these two should be runaway favourites. Both have the unrivalled ability to steal all GWAMs from the AI, which hugely lowers the bar for how much offensive tourism you need in order to win. But Russia gets the faster start, a guaranteed religion, guaranteed Monumentality golden age, and an amazing Faith game, second only to Menelik. So Peter is the winner!
     
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  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    If I may add a comment.

    while these rankings cause heated debate and subjective views by us all they do show how wonderfully different we all are which makes for a more interesting world to live in. Relish the difference, we only live it once (unless you have faith)

    thanks to every last one of you
     
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  8. Oberinspektor Derrick

    Oberinspektor Derrick Chieftain

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    Now the real question is, will we see a nerf to Peter soon? Currently the top dog of both cultural and religious games, and for some reason he he keeps getting these (unintended) sneaky stealth buffs (new work ethic, finally some early GWAM slots for his unemployed GPs from the Old God Obelisk in SS mode, generally increased focus on faith in cultural games come GS etc.).
    Definitely a top civ though, but arguably so not balanced either. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  9. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Everything you say about Peter only applies to the Lavra, though. *That's* what is OP.
     
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  10. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Peter's really good overall, but he looks much stronger in a vacuum when you're only looking at how good he can be at Cultural or Religious games in particular. He's got limiting factors (Tundra start, Leader UA isn't that great) and he only is really good at those two victory conditions in particular. It's hard to get screwed in a Russian start because of how big your borders are, but it can happen. I think he's right on the border of S & A-Tier. (I also personally think he's not quite top three in Cultural Victory, but clearly I'm in the minority).
     
  11. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Also, Cultural and Religious are the two worst Victory types, in that you can get shut out of Culture and Religion by the Deity AI the most if the chips fall the wrong way. Being good at the Cultural and Religious game is just a lot less useful than being good at Domination or Science, both of which support every other win condition. I agree Peter is on the A-/S border.
     
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  12. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    I remember before game launch there was discussion about how garbage the Lavra would be, as there was no mention of the bonus GWAM points before launch.

    The Lavra is definitely the OP portion, but that's also because of the synergy with Russia's UA. Gives the guarantee of the tundra pantheon and the extra tiles to work so you can work the top tiles from the get go. Otherwise he'd be very limited.

    There's a reason Peter's LUA was like F-tier in the rankings though. Not much from that.
     
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  13. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    And they are both pretty much impossible in competitive multiplayer.
     
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  14. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Yeah, it's really funny thinking about how garbage everyone thought Russia was going to be pre-launch. I certainly was in that camp. It was hard to really conceptualize what makes the Lavra strong without seeing the full scope of the systems that district interacts with, though. And Mother Russia turned out to be a lot better in practice than we thought. Unfortunate, Grand Embassy... it's pretty bad, but luckily Peter doesn't really need it. Man, can you imagine a Russia with an actually good leader ability? I shudder at the thought.

    That's more true for Civ V, in Civ VI multiplayer you can actually win through Culture & Religion. Might not be the default, but it's not literally impossible unlike in V.
     
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  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nah, monumentality is OP
     
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  16. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    These are interesting as they reveal the diverse ways of playstyles for the culture victory especially:

    -You can do the Pericles min/max speed run where you are basically snagging your GWAM and racing through the civics tree to all the tourism multiplier cards before anyone else is far along enough to get significant defensive culture up.
    -You can do a Persia appeal based game where you can get ridiculous amounts of tourism from what are apparently the most legendary seaside resorts in existence.
    -You can play as Canada or BM teddy and pepper the world with National Parks.
    -You can do an early reliquaries push to get massive early game tourism as well.
    -You can do a faith game and pepper the world with Rock Bands.

    I wish something like the Science or Religious victories had this much variety in approaches.
     
  17. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

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    I should have supported Pericles more (at least more than Kristina, who I still like a lot) as a generic great works based cultural win civ. Peter is worthy though, and only gets stronger if you add in secret societies. Peter and Melenik both benefit more from that than non-faith based civs. And having places to put works of art and excess books reduces the value of Kristina's tier-2 government building (though she still benefits from auto-theming it).

    Anyways, it was fun to do a tour through the contenders as this thread developed. I just wish I hadn't saved Pericles until last.
     
  18. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    And based on map generation, AI, and random city states, the optimal cultural strategy can change. Like on one map, you might just crush it as Canada and national park spam, while you could struggle as Pericles. Or maybe it's the perfect map for resorts and pairidaezas, so Persia would fare well, but if you were China, your plans for wonder whoring would be interrupted by an aggressive Teddy next door. So I can see why there's so many different opinions, as no two cultural games are the same.
     
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  19. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    I know that we weren't considering secret societies this time, but I think that the Reliquaries + Mont St Michel strategy got a big boost with Voidsingers. Not because of the Void Relics, but because of the extra slots in the Obelisks. You can fit lots more relics now.
     
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  20. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

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    If Rapa Nui or La Venta are in the game (and you think they won't be conquered), you really ought to beeline to flight and simply spam Moai and Colossal Heads starting around turn 100 (well before you actually get to flight) and abandon (or at least delay) museums until every hex available has one of those (or forest, in the case of Colossal Head spam). The amount of tourism you can generate with either one is staggering.
     
  21. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    This thread encouraged me to have another few games where I pushed early great works as hard as I could *cough*Pericles*cough*.

    I have to be honest and say that I'd leaned away from this style of culture victory since the GS writer nerf, instead preferring a slower approach heavily relying on faith. I was pleasantly surprised by my more recent games that it hasn't been nerfed as hard as my initial thoughts. But it does feel like an all-in strategy so you have to make certain you are going for that victory right from the get-go - and I felt more vulnerable to attack than usual. I like that a mid-game pivot to culture is possible as well. It gives some nice flexibility especially as a backup for an RV.
     
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