Cultural Victory Elimination Thread (no SS)

[Leucarum]

Pericles: The likely winner? I have yet to play Magnificence Catherine so maybe I'm off the mark as people are saying she's ludicrously good. But out of all the civs I have played, Pericles seems to have the biggest runaway potential for culture.

Pachacuti: Not really much there to give him any advantages. Why not go science?

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [13]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [18]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Mathias Corvinus/Hungary [5]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [18]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2] (5-3)
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24] (23+1)
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
Tamar/Georgia [11]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [16]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
Wilhelmina/Netherlands [4]

 

[Weraptor]

Wilhelmina/Netherlands [1] (4-3) The Incas have better production, high appeal and foot holy site tiles and a strong growth bonus, justifying holy sites, campuses, theaters, commercial hubs and whatnot. The Netherlands have inferior production, average appeal but perhaps more gold. These civs are no tourism powerhouses, but I believe the Incas do it better than the Dutch.

Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19] (18+1) Pretty much the only reliable patch for Mvemba. More great works, more great work slots, probably more relics and considerable growth bonuses. The lack of faith does weaken him a lot, though.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [13]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [18]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Mathias Corvinus/Hungary [5]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
Tamar/Georgia [11]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [16]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
Wilhelmina/Netherlands [1]

 

[JhGf_123]

Kupe/Maori (18+1) because he deserves to be in the running for top 5. Two of my top three culture victories were Kupe. One of them was Pangaea too, so he doesn't even need Islands to thrive. Indeed, Pangaea can be even better because it produces more rainforest, woods, marsh, floodplains, etc, which equals even more tourism after Flight.

Tamar/Georgia (11-3) I might be missing something, but it seems her only tourism bonus is that her special walls produce twice as much tourism during a golden age. Big deal, that's not going to win you the game by itself. Her faith output is also very disappointing for a supposedly faith-based Civ, and I've never found the envoy bonus to be effective (who wants to waste apostle charges on city-states?). Overall, a really weak leader.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [13]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Mathias Corvinus/Hungary [5]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [22]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [16]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
Wilhelmina/Netherlands [1]

 

[enKage]

Voting earlier, cause would be busy later

Downvote:
Why are Maori so high? They basically have NO tourism pre-flight as Marae has no great work slots. Common amphitheatre has 2 slots = 4 tourism, 8 after pinting, 16 after double card and if you go for CV you always buy it from AIs as soon as you have slots. Maori have to wait after flight to get tourism from Marae and yes, they can eventually get more than 16, with careful planning and avoiding shores, cause you cannot plant reefs. Also Pingala can double torism from great works, but cannot double tourism from Marae. But other civs with UI gain after flight even more. What am I missing (and I suppose I overlook sth as I don't play Maori often) except the fact Maori are in general strong civ?
19-3=16 Kupe

Upvote
More important than GWAM generation is a possibility of using it. GWAM generation does not earn tourism, having great works does. And China is very good in getting at least 2 additional very early slots, sometimes even 4 (apadana + great library). And great wall is so fantastic for CV. + 50% instead of usual 40% on eurekas / inspiration
22+1 = 23 Qin


Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [13]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Mathias Corvinus/Hungary [5]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [16]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
Wilhelmina/Netherlands [1]

 

[CrabHelmet]

I don't find the major constraint in Cultural Victories is producing Artists, Writers, and the like. More often than not, it is housing them - having places with enough slots to store them. Particularly, there's a bottleneck mid-game where you need to transition a load of young cities up to having Theatre Squares and the subsequent buildings. Consequently, I quite like anything that can shave turns off this, and Matthias' faster Districts as a little underlooked here, combined with his excellent envoy game which makes obtaining Cultural City-States so much easier - he has the second (third?) best envoy game after Pericles/Gorgo and cultural City-States are some of the really useful ones (see the City-State Elimination thread). Consequently, I think Matthias should stick around a little longer.

Wilhelmina's Trade Routes are either not used early on or so slight as to be trivial later on. Her adjacency bonus is really the only thing left she has going, and that struggles to compete with the fact that Pachacuti and Matthias are just better Civs generally and have more to play with.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [13]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6] (5+1)
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [16]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]
Wilhelmina/Netherlands [0] (1-3) ELIMINATED

 

[lotrmith]

Time is up for these generalists: Trajan, Pacha, John, Lautauro, Matthias, Monty, Pedro, Hojo, and RR Teddy. Downvoting Teddy as he has snuck under the radar too long. Double envoys for trade routes to city states means you're sacrificing tourism bonus on trade routes to civs... for what?

Also to note it's not just about culture output... it has to convert to tourism somehow. GWAMs, wonders, improvements, etc. There is also a bit of an argument to be made about whether a civ *can* vs whether they *will*, as with Aztecs, Japan, Australia, etc. Sure they *can* spam theater squares, but Pericles will *always* spam theater squares (at half price too).

Upvote goes to Khmer. You may not enjoy a Relic strategy but it is incredibly strong.


Also to note I'm inclined to agree about her Magnificence. I'm watching and studying the game @hhhhhh refers to (in Chinese) and my God it is rigged. He save scums, he knows the map layout, he starts within 5 tiles or so of Kandy, gets a relic out of his 2nd hut to secure Settler pantheon, sells the relic to buy another Settler, gets two envoys from huts to suzerain Kandy to continue to get relics to sell for ridiculous gold and excess luxuries from other civs, and has met the entire world around t40 or something. I'm not finished watching but get real.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [18]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [6]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [13]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[GunsGermsandSteel]

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19] (18+1)
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [10]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [3] (6-3)
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [13]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

Upvote: Cleopatra. There seems to be an emphasis on potential in these elimination threads. Sure you can eventually do well with Canada/Ethiopia etc but Egypt has advantages from the early game. There are alot of strategies to further exploit those advantages. Everything works in their civ, they don't have any late/one-off abilities. You can get Monument to the Gods/Patron Godess/God of the Forge. And all would be good choices for Egypt. 15% production to both wonders and districts next to rivers(which isn't hard to do) is very beneficial. Sphinxes provide both faith and culture depending on their placement (and tourism later of course Their chariot archers will easily handle any early harassment from other civs, and hold off/chase down barbarians. On top of all that they had trade bonuses/incentives, which is yet another component of a culture victory.

Downvote: Aztec. Aztecs are quite possibly my favorite civ and I've played a quite a few games with them (even some to completion) and I've never attempted a culture victory. In theory you could do early war, then mass expand and rush theater squares with builder charges. I just don't know why you would when they are so much more geared for perpetual war.

 

[walkerjks]

Let's eliminate Montezuma (3 - 3 = 0). He's a warrior. Enough said.

And give some love for Mansa Musa before he is eliminated. Mansa doesn't play a normal culture game, in that he is foolish for building anything other than a commerce district first. But get a city in the middle of the desert and get all those trade routes coming out of that single city? Ay, yi, yi. Everything gets bought with gold. It's a little slower than theater first strategies of other civs, but if the game goes on longer into broadcast centers and the like, they have the advantage of being able to purchase those as well. And have desert faith for rock bands. I don't really think he's the best, but he's extraordinarily fun to play as he's very good at cultural wins and is almost as fast as the best. Edit to add - he is too dependent on a desert start.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [19]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11] [10+1]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Montezuma/Aztec [0] [3-3]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [13]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[hhhhhh]

I'm the one who upvoted Magnificent Catherine and I'm actually glad that someone started questioning her so we can talk more about it. Before that let me downvote Eleanor first.

Eleanor/France [10] (13-3) She doesn't get any obvious bonus towards culture (yeah I know France can build some mid-game wonders). She need Great Works and as you hoard Great Works sometimes you win culture, but she's not comparable to the ones that have some slight culture bonus.

Catherine/France (Mag) [20] (19+1)

The reason I upvote Catherine/France (Mag) so much is that she won't get enough attention, since she's new and the way you need to play her is kinda special. I only put up that someone won a T72 culture victory with her as a fun fact and to bring some attention. A better estimate on her speed run (standard deity, no s/l, map not revealed) is sub T100. (A good player obtained a victory on T89 in such settings, that's what I expected. And a few turns can be shaved from his game if he had a Classical Golden Age).

In a way culture victory with her is like science victory with China - you have to play it in a non-traditional way and if you know how to do it correctly that is the Civ you use to break record - yeah, China for SV records, not Korea or Australia who are strong via the "usual" play (the China SV records I'm aware of are T117 usual SV and T192 OCC SV, of course both are extremely lucky, but just being lucky is not going to seal you such a victory). Since not many adapt to the non-traditional way, I agree that Magnificent Catherine maybe won't end up in top 5.

Yes the Court Festival is expensive. But you need to understand how project cost works - it gets more and more expensive as you progress through the tech/civic tree. The fact that someone thinks it costs 265 production shows that they probably only looked at the cost once and didn't understand how project cost scale - it costs 265 production only when you unlocked 14 civics or 17 techs. Why don't you even talk its price using the end game cost - 975 production, or the cost at 8 civics, 183 production?

That's another key thing (other than collecting luxury, which is more obvious) about playing Magnificent Catherine - once you unlock Theater Square, what you need to do is slowing down your progress on tech/civic, to save the cost of the projects so it doesn't outgrow your progress. A little counterintuitive, I know, but that's how the game actually works. And to win with her, most cities only need to finish one round of the Court Festival project (so you can hold it one turn from finish and release them all when you collect enough luxuries). Only the Magnus city can chop a few round - FYI if you know how to control your progress and only progress to 11 civic, then the Court Festival project cost 228 production and one Magnus chop is 78 production. 3 chop is a project. Or if you have suzerainty of Hong Kong, 34 production + 2 chops.

I believe as people's understanding of Magnificent Catherine improve, we will see more and more good games with her. Maybe after getting Drama and Poetry (so Theater Square is unlocked) you need to move Pingala from capital so you don't progress so fast. Maybe you don't settle as much (in general for CV you don't settle as crazy as SV. The good T89 victory I saw still settled 9 cities, what if you can do it at 7 cities? A lot of production can be saved and then used towards projects). We will see.

I understand how some people are not a fan of this play style. But that's a problem of Civilization VI mechanisms, not quite a problem of Magnificent Catherine.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [13]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [18]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[bengalryan9]

It's a tale of two Teddies for me today...

Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10] (13-3) I agree with the poster above, what's the appeal here? You're not going to want to trade with city states when going for a CV, and the culture he gets from rough riders seems negligible to me. The Film Studio comes late in general but this version of Teddy is far less likely to be able to take advantage of it.

Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19] (18+1) This Teddy, however, has a lot going for him. The ability to get culture and science from tiles with high appeal is very useful (and with proper planning, you'll get more and more of these tiles as the game progresses... and you are allowed to improve them, too!), and his national parks are the best in the game. Right now I'm playing a game with him and pretty much my whole empire is breathtaking... pretty crazy. I will say this, though... BM Teddy sure makes me appreciate the Mountie that much more, because my faith economy can barely keep up with all the naturalists I want to buy, and I've got nothing to spare for rock bands.

RE: Magnificent Catherine, I haven't played her yet so can't really comment on her too much but it sounds like it involves cheesing a few mechanics to take advantage of... not really a fan personally.

Catherine/France (BQ) [16]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10] (13-3)
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [19] (18+1)
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[Hogimus]

Catherine/France (BQ) [13](16-3) Wonders are great, but the best wonders for tourism are in the ancient era, meaning you either need to build them early, which isn’t ideal for getting things going, or you conquer them later, which is what the garde imperale is for. The problem with this synergy is that industrial era conquests are a quick way to get denounced and not have access to open borders which slows down your tourism.
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pachacuti/Inca [2]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [20] (19+1) Totally agree with @bengalryan9 , I’m also currently playing a game as #BullMooseTed, and in able to keep up in science without building a campus, giving quicker access to Eiffel Tower, and way ahead in culture.
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[KnightModern]

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [15]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pachacuti/Inca [0] (2-3) ELIMINATED production is required for archeologists, but he doesn't have anything else, and does anyone want to waste that production and food for culture victory?
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21] (20+1) dat breathtaking forests chef's kiss
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[Aurelesk]

VWhy are Maori so high? They basically have NO tourism pre-flight as Marae has no great work slots. Common amphitheatre has 2 slots = 4 tourism, 8 after pinting, 16 after double card and if you go for CV you always buy it from AIs as soon as you have slots.

Tourism from Great Works changed. The +100% changed to only affect the base Tourism. Before, the Writing gave 4 Tourism, 8 with Printing Press and 16 with Curator. There is no double card for Writing (Heritage Tourism only affects Artifacts and Arts). Now, the Writing gives 2 Tourism, 4 with Printring Press and 6 with Curator. That is why the Writing rush is not a thing anymore.

Same thing for Artifacts and Arts:

• A themed Archeological Museum gave 18 Tourism, 36 with the Card, and 108 with Mary Leakey. Now it is 18, 27 with the double card, and 45 with Mary Leakey. "Curator" promotion does not affect Artifacts.
• A themed Art Museum gave 18 Tourism, 36 with Curator, 72 with the Card. Now it is 18, 27 with Curator, 36 with the Card.

Kupe is losing the early Writing for National Parks and Tourism from Culture. A endgame Grassland Wood is 2 Food, 4 Production, 1 Culture (→ 1 Tourism with Flight) and 1 Faith, which is powerful. And you can put that in a National Park. Maori's strategy relies on stockpiling Faith, climb the Civic tree with his Culture bonus, and unlock the Rock Band / Naturalists as quick as possible. Furthermore, all the little Culture tiles yield Tourism with Flight. You can argue that Maori's strategy is not a top contender due to his lack of early Tourism. But he is in no way weak to it.


Catherine/France (BQ) [13] It is not because she's not as talented as Magnificent she can't do things. France double Tourism from Wonders + milking Château is sturdy, and her lack of early production does not prevent her to actually build early wonders: +20% is still weak.
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10] Same for Black Queen. France ability is sturdy. We kind of enter some argument: having an ability that do not help toward a Cultural Victory but do exploit the Cultural Victory mechanic to achieve something should be dismissed or accounted?
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [12] (15-3) Excluding the Voidsingers, Poland just has better yields from Relics and slightly better Holy Site adjacency. She has fewer way to create Relics than the Khmer, neither a faster Holy Site than Russia / Japan, nor really consistently better Holy Site than Australia. She just relies on founding a Religion and grab Reliquaries. She may secure a Religion better with her Wildcard slot, but being first does not really matter because nobody want Reliquaries, and then tries to do an Relic Rush (something that every can do). She doesn't even have a bonus Tourism from Relics, still have to build Mont Saint Michel / Saint Basil's Cathedral, and if this strategy fails, she wasted a religion and a ton of faith for nothing with no back-up plan. She is clearly worst than any France here, that at least milk Tourism from the Mont Saint Michel / Saint Basil's Cathedral with Château and double Tourism. If the whole strategy is to rely on Kandy or lucky Tribal Village, this is not consistant.
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17] (16+1) Well, it has some tools to it (see above).
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [8]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[xaiviax]

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [21]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18] (17+1) While lacking Pericles's high interest rates, has more to invest earlier and longer.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [12]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [24]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5] (8-3) Really wish she was better at something.
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[Jewelrunna]

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Jadwiga/Poland [12]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [12]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

Cyrus/Persia [22] (21 + 1): Yup, doing it again. Pairidaezas are just that good, people. And as a side note before people point out that Cyrus is a warmonger and therefore is a bad culture Civ: he's not hard locked into a warmongering Civ. If you want to invade your neighbors, you do that in the Classical Era with your Immortals push, and by the time your Tourism push really starts to matter (read: Modern Era), the diplo penalty for your early warmongering is going to peter out. However, I'm not taking any of Cyrus' warring abilities into consideration with this voting: the Pairidaezas are still easily enough by themselves to make him the best Cultural leader in the game, in my opinion. Oh, and the Satrapies ability is an actually good version of Wilhelmina's ability, and can help you push towards some early game Civics. Not game changing, but welcome to have. But, yeah: Pairidaezas.

Pericles/Greece [21] (24 - 3): So let's nip another undeserving runaway in the bud, and this one isn't even as good as Peter, so I'm going to be a bit more heavyhanded in this analysis. However, like Peter, I still think Pericles is obviously very strong in cultural victories. However, that strength comes almost exclusively from his high Culture gains. Between the Acropolis district and Surrounded by Glory, Pericles easily has the highest Culture yields of any Civ in the game, making his version of Greece the Cultural equivalent of Korea. However, one thing that's a bit lost on people is that Culture as a yield does not translate to a Cultural Victory in the same way that Science translates into a Scientific Victory. To win a CV, you need Tourism, and compared to a lot of the true juggernauts in this list, Pericles has NO direct bonuses to Tourism. Heck, even some of the already eliminated Civs like Scotland have more direct bonuses to Tourism than Pericles. Now, to heap some praise onto him, Pericles does still have some roundabout Tourism bonuses: the Acropolis being half-off production cost helps him start earning Great People earlier, his high Culture yields are going to help you move through the Civic Tree which of course does help you get to some Tourism boosts (but this is less directly game-winning than say, Korea's comparable Science gains for a SV), and Plato's Republic is just an all-around great ability that you can use to socket in some of those GP-earning policy cards (though generally, you're going to want to place a card that benefits the rest of your empire). With all that praise made though, there still isn't a direct boost to any Tourism yields within Pericles' kit, and he also doesn't have the insane Faith economy or extra GP points that Russia has to compensate. He's still very good, but shouldn't be so far in the lead.

Don't worry folks, I'm not going to make a habit of just downvoting whoever's in the lead just to help Persia. I think Qin's current first place spot is well-deserved.

 

[Kwami]

John Curtin (12 - 3 = 9): If you're putting your districts on the tiles with highest appeal, then you aren't putting national parks or seaside resorts on those tiles. The weird placement of districts might make national parks generally harder to place, too. Eh.

Hojo Tokimune (17 + 1 = 18): Half-priced theater square and half-priced holy sites and better adjacency and... Well, I guess the electronics factory, but that's not important. Hojo is easily one of the best leaders for cultural victory. The idea that he's a generalist and should be eliminated is crazy talk.

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [18]
Jadwiga/Poland [12]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [9]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[bbbt]

Jadwiga/Poland [9] 12 - 3 It was between her and RR Teddy in my downvote debate. The minor culture boost from relics isn't a lot at all. At least RR Teddy can grab some cultural CSes faster.

Mansa Musa/Mali [12] 11 + 1 - Not top 10 material, but I'll give him an upvote as 'best of the rest' before he goes. Once his income is up and running, can buy theater squares (with Reyna) and corner the market on purchasing GWAM. And it might be considered exploity, but the AI is very willing to sell you their great works, and he has the money to buy them.

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [18]
Jadwiga/Poland [9]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [9]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[Dantesedge]

I like this thread because the votes are so diverse; the opinions of who is strong and who is less strong of those who are left are all over the place. I like that. I personally think that everyone left on this list right now has a pretty decent to amazing culture game; there's not a single "weak" culture civ left here just ones that are not as good as others.

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19] (18+1) Japan's just good at everything. Half priced theater squares is Pericles level good, and with proper city planning you can have yields other civs can only dream of - especially since TS yields are hard to come by anyways. Top 10 material here (but when is Hojo not!).

John Curtin/Australia [6] (9-3) Placing Theater Squares (and to a lesser degree Holy Sites) on high appeal tiles for early culture vs. mid-to-endgame tourism; you may have ultimately blocked lucrative National Parks and seaside resorts. Could be worth it, but I'm not convinced it's a better strategy than most of the other civs left. Unlike improvements, like Lautaro's, you can't remove it later. The production level is nice though.

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
Jadwiga/Poland [9]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [6]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Jadwiga/Poland [6] (9-3) Like my Georgia and Mapuche votes, Jadwiga is another Civ who is, overall, just not very good. Unless you're going religion, which she can be great at, you're going to struggle with her hotch-potch bag of abilities in any victory type, including culture. In particular, I'd argue that relic-based strategies are not very reliable or effective (unless you're the Khmer); they take a while to come into effect, they require a considerable pre-investment into holy sites, temples, and apostles, and they're defunct unless you secure one of Yerevan or Mont St. Michel.

Australia/John Curtin [7] (6+1) Because I think it would be a shame if he went before Poland, Georgia, or (in my view) Mapuche. He's just very, very good all-round, and that translates into overall competence at culture victory too. In addition, some people have been saying that he has to kill high appeal tiles for his districts, which reduces the number of natural parks / seaside resorts he can build. This is true up to a point, but I'll make the same observation I made in the religion thread. With some pre-planning, you can raise the appeal of your tiles by strategically positioning holy sites & theatre squares – i.e. the two districts you want for culture victory. This means that a standard district triangle in a reasonably located area should secure the breathtaking appeal for all three districts, leaving tiles by the sea / mountains free for resorts & parks.

Finally, RE: Catherine, I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment;

Magnificent Catherine, I haven't played her yet so can't really comment on her too much but it sounds like it involves cheesing a few mechanics to take advantage of... not really a fan personally

@hhhhhh, I get that a very well-informed player can produce the fastest game times if he knows EXACTLY what to do. But if you have to limit your own culture output, stop unlocking civics, and stop building cities, this does not sound like power to me: it definitely sounds like cheesing. I'd argue that playing the game as it is meant to be played – i.e. you build cities, you unlock civics, and therefore Catherine's district project gets more and more expensive – she is good, very good, but nothing remarkable. On my current experience I'd put her below Peter every day of the week, since even the most amateurish Deity player can smash out a sub-200 culture victory as Russia: that, in my mind, is real strength.

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
Jadwiga/Poland [6]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [22]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [16]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]

 

[monikernemo]

Trajan/Rome [13] (16 - 3) Trajan should be eliminated. I think Trajan's contribution to CV mainly lies in trading posts and monuments and even Dido beats Trajan in generating trade routes far away though....

Peter/Russia [23] (22 + 1)
Fast expansion with monumentality, coupled with high faith for naturalists and GWAM generation.
Not to mention Work Ethic + DotA is a huge buff to Russia for ancient/classical wonder rushing, or if it doesn't float your boat, then Russia behemoth faith income can support Jesuit Education.
Peter is just obscenely strong all around.

Catherine/France (BQ) [13]
Catherine/France (Mag) [20]
Cleopatra/Egypt [19]
Cyrus/Persia [22]
Eleanor/France [10]
Gitarja/Indonesia [18]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [19]
Jadwiga/Poland [6]
Jayavarman/Khmer [14]
John Curtin/Australia [7]
Kristina/Sweden [22]
Kupe/Maori [17]
Lautaro/Mapuche [12]
Matthias Corvinus/Hungary [6]
Mansa Musa/Mali [12]
Menelik/Ethiopia [21]
Mvemba a Nzinga/Kongo [19]
Pedro/Brazil [20]
Pericles/Greece [21]
Peter/Russia [23]
Qin Shi Huang/China [23]
Tamar/Georgia [5]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (RR) [10]
Teddy Roosevelt/America (BM) [21]
Trajan/Rome [13]
Wilfrid Laurier/Canada [21]