1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Photobucket has changed its policy concerning hotlinking images and now requires an account with a $399.00 annual fee to allow hotlink. More information is available at: this link.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Dismiss Notice
  7. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Cultural Victory: Notes and tips

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by spiceant, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    the following are (very many) examples of my knowledge about the cultural victory and its aspects. keep in mind i play on huge maps on emperor difficulty (and win the occasional few).
    I expect people to understand this article at the point where they have learned to win prince difficulty games, on larger then standard maps with default settings.

    some notes:
    1. once you switch your cultural slider to 100%, you will no longer have to worry about happyness, therefor try to maximize the size of your citys for more artist specialists
    2. at 100% culture funding you can choose to trade your happyness resources for health ones or money (to pay for the expenses that force your culture slider down below 100%). try to spread the trades equelly between leaders so all of the suspicious (backstabbing) leaders will loose a trading deal when declaring war against you.
    3. defensive pacts dont appear to increase your diplomatical backup at the point where other civs decide to or not to declare war you, they do however give you some confidence that you wont be alone when facing war.
    4. do not use free religion civic when turning the culture slider to 100%, the happyness bonus is negated by the happyness you get from your theaters (+10 happy faces atleast). i suggest you use pacifism and caste system.
    5. [new]the emancipation civic has a heavy prereq, in addition the "bonus" it gives can be ignored once you flip the culture switch. if you really run low on happyness, build a colosseum.
    6. [new]when facing the choice of building wonders in the 1ad-800ad era you must considder that every turn that it takes longer to finish the wonder will mean that it will take up to 10 turns longer to double its base culture in the future!
    7. the apparantly insignificant cultural structures like obelisks and temples can matter very much, as they double the culture they produce quite quickly (as the years pass quickly in the early game). they will also generate a compareatively large amount of culture for their cost, because they will have generated culture since ancient times.
    8. cultural buildings will generate more culture almost exponantially the earlyer they are build, because they will generate culture for longer and will also double their culture/turn earlyer (compared to turns instead of years)
    9. altough you wont be warmongering (i preassume) you will want a lot of military units, once you turn your cultural slider to over 80% your enemys will get better military techs. discourage them from taking you over. defensive units arent enough, a war of attrition (pillaging of your improvements) can easily ruin you.
    10. altough taking a state religion is usefull, this will negate the effect of other religions (not their buildings). and will also make heathens more likely to attack you
    11. once culture is generated, nothing can multiply it, unlike in civIII. if an enemy takes your city however a portion is lost.
    12. Normal speed requires 3 citys with 50K culture, epic 75K, marathon 150K and quick speed requires 3 with 25K.
    13. you can try to calculate how much more culture/turn you need in a city, by sharing the total of amount of remaining required culture by the remaining amount of turns untill the deadline (2049AD is to late!!!!), i only suggest this method for making raw estimates.
    14. cathedrals are great, build as many as you can but dont let them cost you. they cost 10 times the cost of obelisks and require multiple temples per cathedral
    15. Preserving forests is for the late warmongers or space ship constructors, you want a lot of cottages and the occasional mine for production.
    16. for the cultural victory, there are (usually) 2 phases of your civilization, the development phase and the cocoon phase where ya grow into a butterfly. Phase1: build everything that turns up your culture/turn like wonders cathedrals but also the free speech civic (this generates a small portion of the total culture) and phase2: turn into cocoon, defend your riches and turn your cultural slider 100% generate as much culture as fast as possible, save up the last artists to help your 3rd city over the culture edge,
    17. dont do overkill, divide all of your culture equelly inbetween citys, the group (of 3) is only as fast as its slowest member.

    Buildings will double the amount of culture they generate per turn, after 1000 years
    Marathon speed:
    total turns: 1200

    One turn is
    20 Years, untill 2000 BC (100 turns)
    10 Years, untill 1 AD (200 turns)
    5 Years, untill 1000 AD (200 turns)
    any culture buildings after this point will not generate extra culture/turn, before a realistic deadline
    2 Years, untill 1700 AD (350 turns)
    1 Years, untill 2050 AD (350 turns) -> time victory condition



    Epic speed:
    Total turns: 660 turns.
    One turn is
    40 Years, untill 2000 BC (50 turns)
    25 Years, untill 1000 BC (40 turns)
    20 Years, untill 200 AD (60 turns)
    10 Years, untill 1000 AD (80 turns)
    any culture buildings after this point will not generate extra culture/turn, before a realistic deadline
    5 Years, untill 1650 AD (130 turns)
    2 Years, untill 1850 AD (100 turns)
    1 Years, untill 2050 AD, (200 turns) - > time victory condition



    Normal speed:
    Total turns: 460
    One turn is
    40 Years, untill 1000 BC (75 turns)
    25 Years, untill 500 AD (60 turns)
    20 Years, untill 1000 AD (25 turns)
    any culture buildings after this point will not generate extra culture/turn, before a realistic deadline
    10 Years, untill 1500 AD (50 turns)
    5 Years, untill 1800 AD (60 turns)
    2 Years, untill 1920 AD (60 turns)
    1 Years, untill 2050 AD (130 turns) -> time victory condition



    Quick speed:
    Total turns: 320 turns:
    One turn is
    50 Years, untill 1000 BC (60 turns)
    40 Years, untill 1000 AD (50 turns)
    any culture buildings after this point will not generate extra culture/turn, before a realistic deadline
    25 Years, untill 1500 AD (20 turns)
    10 Years, untill 1650 AD (15 turns)
    5 Years, untill 1900 AD (50 turns)
    2 Years, untill 1950 AD (25 turns)
    1 Years, untill 2050 AD (100 turns) -> time victory condition
     
  2. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    The early culture buildings you can build, of which the base culture per turn will be doubled quickly:

    note1a: estimated earlyest research moments are estimated, preassumed your civ has no starting techs.
    note1b: estimated earlyest research moments are also estimated as such that techs are not neceserrily rushed to (like the drama or music tech)
    note2: relative costs are... relatively compared to the sizes of citys and improvements that are available to citys at the time they can be build.
    note3: the <religion> techs stands for any religion, a <religion> building can be build for each religion, so if you have a jewish town you can make a jewish temple there and later when taoism spreads to it you can also build a taoist temple there. <religion> buildings do not directly affect eachother.

    <Religion> Monastary
    Base culture/turn: 2 (and +10% science)
    Research prereq: Meditation
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 3200BC
    Relative cost: expensive

    Theatre
    Base culture/turn: 3
    Research prereq: Drama
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 1500BC
    Relative cost: Mediocre (or cheap with creative leader trait)
    *note: it can be build relatively early, if its build early enough it will have the base culture/turn of a world wonder like the pyramids

    <Religion> Temple
    Base culture/turn: 1
    Research prereq: Priesthood
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 3200BC
    Relative cost: expensive (or mediocre with spiritual leader trait)
    *note: altough the base culture is low, it also adds a happyness face and can also be build early which also means it can generate a significant amount of culture (about 1-3% of total needed for legendary culture status) it can also generate your first great prophet for a <religion> holy shrine. i suggest building it, if you feel confident it does not damage your civs development.
    in the end your still gonna build them because you will certainly want the cathedrals.

    Obelisk
    Base culture/turn: 1
    Research prereq: Mystikism
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 3700BC
    Relative cost: cheap (it takes only 1 population+slavery or a forest chop)
    *note: altough the base culture is very low, it also doubles very quickly if build early and will for that reason generate culture for a very long time, do not underestimate it.

    Library
    Base culture/turn: 2 (and +25% to science/turn)
    Research prereq: Writing
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 3000BC
    Relative cost: very expensive
    *note: altough it is quite expensive for its time, it can support 2 scientists in a city with a 4 food tile, in a capitol of the <2500BC ages this means double research (and an early great scientist). otherwise you can stick to 1 scientists. Early great scientists are extremely usefull.

    Acadamy
    Base culture/turn: 4 (and +50% to science/turn)
    Research prereq: Writing (this is not the absolute prereq)
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 2300BC
    cost: 1 great scientist
    *note: the acadamy does NOT double its base culture/turn after 1000 years, oddly. it still has a really nice base culture.

    <religion> Cathedral
    Base culture/turn: +50% to the base culture of the city (doesnt double after 1000 years)
    Research prereq: Priesthood & Music
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 500BC
    Relative cost: Dead expensive (10 forest chops) its build twice as fast if you get the special resource (copper/marble/stone) for it (varys per religion)
    *[edit 17 jan '06] note: Cathedrals are great, as noted above they are quite costy, they are however the most powerfull cultural buildings you can build, get as many as you can but dont loose youself to them, they cost quite much.
    these cant be build in every city, it takes about 3-4 temples of one specific religion to build a cathedral in one city after that you need to build another 3-4 temples for a 2nd one, that represents this same religion. 3 temples on <standard size maps (i suspect).
    on lower difficultys or on smaller maps it is possible to get more then 3-4 religions that allow you to build cathedrals, on higher difficultys it may not be feasible to get more then 2 cathedrals per religion. it all depends, though.

    <religion> Holy shrine
    Base culture/turn: +4 (This one DOES double after 1000 years)
    Research prereq: any tech (mystikism/priesthood) that allows you to generate great prophets
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 2000-1000BC, if you build stonehenge early and manage to own a holy city)
    Relative cost: 1 great prophet (on higher difficultys, holy shrines arent usually profitable because other religion founders spread theirs much faster)
    *note: on lower difficultys holy shrines can be very usefull because they generate a lot of money and a nice bit of culture on top of it, the higher the difficulty the lesser the commerce profit. (shrine commerce cannot go to research/culture, it can however pay for expenses that keep your culture/research rate down)

    Univserity
    Base culture/turn: +3 (+25% to base science/turn)
    Research prereq: Education
    Estimated research moment: to late for double base culture
    relative cost: expensive (or mediocre with phylosophical)
    *note: its a nice structure, not much to say. its probably build to late to get the double base culture significantly early enough

    castle
    Base culture/turn: +1
    Research prereq: engineering
    Estimated earlyest research moment for prereq tech: 500AD
    Relative cost: mediocre (or cheap with stone)
    *note: this structure is hardly noteworthy for culture victorys, it does help you defend your citys but not the improvements that you need for the city to function in the first place. you are also unlikely to build it before its going to double its base culture anytime soon.
     
  3. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    World wonders usually grant you a nice culture boost, atleast the early ones. The most famous being the pyramids.
    here are my written notes on wonders and their relations to the culture victory. Take into considderation that some wonders can be build up to twice as fast with resources of which they are made, keep this in mind when considdering to or not to build a wonder.
    preassumptions: no industrial leader trait/no (strategic) resources
    two ** next to a wonders name means it has 10 culture/turn and * means 8culture/turn. no * means 6.
    all world wonders double their base culture/turn after 1000 years.
    here i mention the wonders that (i think) can be build so early that they will reap double cultural value/turn in a significant part of the timeline, 1000 years later.

    The (great) Pyramids
    Research tech: Masonry
    Emperor difficulty AI build moment: The birth of J christ (some time around then)
    Bonus: can pick representation as your civic (all other civics are unpractical, perhaps not police state but thats it)
    Relative cost: Dead expensive
    altough it looks like a great wonder (and it really is) it costs about the same as 15 obelisks, 7.5 settlers, 5-6 axeman or 15 forest chops.
    choose which you want the most. if you do not have stone hooked up, or do not have an industrious leader trait i dont suggest you build it. If you do i advice you to use the representation civic as this makes your artist specialists blow :).
    The great pyramids spawns great engineers, which is extremely usefull for building a second world wonder.

    *Stonehenge
    Research tech: Mystikism
    Emp diff AI build moment: 2000BC-1AD
    You can discover it quite early or start with it
    Bonus: Free obelisks
    Relative cost: cheap
    for non-creative leaders this is a really nice wonder. The great prophet it spawns in 50 turns can found christianity, if you research writing and the first 5 religion techs. Obelisks constructed by stonehenge will never double their base culture after 1000 years.

    The Great Lighthouse
    Research tech: Masonry & Sailing
    Emp difff AI build moment: 1000BC-1AD
    Bonus: +2 trading routes in coastal citys.
    Relative cost: Mediocre (a litle less then double that of stonehenge)
    unfortunatly it requires you to build a lighthouse as a prerequirement. Fortunatly this also gives you a litle extra time, this is without thinking one of the best wonders for civilizations that build their citys on coasts.

    *The Oracle
    Research tech: Priesthood
    Emp diff AI build moment: 1500-500BC
    Bonus: Free tech (one you can otherwise choose to research over time at the time of completion)
    Relative cost: mediocre
    it can be build early, this seems pretty bad to me, you can use it to discover an expensive tech, usually code of law (among other players), i also suggest this tech as it founds confucianism and gives you the (relatively) unlimited artist civic.

    **The Parthenon
    Research tech: Polytheism
    Emp diff AI build moment: a small period before the pyramids (usually)
    bonus: +50% great people points
    Relative cost: Expensive (litle less then the pyramids)
    this wonder can be build early (regardless of cost) and gives a base culture/turn of 10, very usefull!
    the +50% great people might sound nice but in truth it might only give you about 15-20% more great people, at least not as much as you might have expected the first day you got CivIV and build the parth. for any non phylosophical civ culture victory fairing this is still a very usefull wonder as it will spawn artists very early. early great artists will generate more culture then an instant culture bomb (great work).

    The Colossus
    Research tech: Metal Casting
    Emp diff AI build moment: 50AD or beyond
    Bonus: +1 commerce on water tiles
    Relative cost: mediocre to cheap
    Its a nice litle wonder but i dont see many high difficulty cultural conquerers get this one, its got a prereq tech that does not help build anything else cultural.

    Chichen Itza
    Research tech: Code of law
    Emp diff AI build moment: 200AD
    Bonus: +25% defence for all of your citys
    Relative cost: Mediocre to expensive
    Nice litle wonder, doesnt have an amazing base culture. Nice wonder. get it if you dont get anything else or have stone.

    *The Great library
    Research tech: Literature
    Emp diff AI build moment: 200AD
    Bonus: 2 free scientist specialists.
    Relative cost: (not very) expensive
    If you dont mind to litter your great people birthline with filthy scientists its okay to build this one, its a very usefull wonder if the cost is cut by 50% or more. you can try to keep your great people birthline clean by having a second city that does not allow the city with the G library to cause accidental scientists (by outbreeding it :)).
    if you got stone and an early position on the timeline i'd go for it.

    The Hanging gardens
    Research tech: Mathematics
    Emp diff AI build moment: 500AD
    Bonus: +1 health to all citys and +1 pop for each city at completion time.
    Relative cost: mediocre to expensive
    The relatively low cost makes up for the (in my opinion) small bonus. i dont like to have my whole population boosted by 1 because this usually causes it all to turn red and green (angry & sick). on the higher difficultys each point of health does count, however.

    **(The) Notre Dame
    Research Tech: Music
    Emp diff AI build moment: 800AD
    Bonus: +1 happy people in all citys (on the continent)
    Relative cost: bloody expensive (133% of the pyramids)
    If you build the pyramids, this is the wonder that you want the great engineer for. (+1 happy face and +2 great artist points are vry usefull on high difficultys)

    **The sistine chapel
    Research tech: Theology
    Emp diff AI build moment: 950AD
    Bonus: +2 culture/turn per active specialist (including normal and great people)
    Relative cost: (very) expensive
    For a cultural victor this wonder must have been quite so usefull, as it has a very usefull base culture/turn and usefull bonus, i'd build it for its base cultural value though.

    last edit
    17 January 2006
    i also have notes and tips for the diplomacy victory in this strategy article subforum
     
  4. Orca

    Orca Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    108
    Very nice , thank you :)
     
  5. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    added some tips (1 to 6 out of the 17 of the first page)
     
  6. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2002
    Messages:
    6,489
    This should be in bold and #1. Forget the cost, cathedrals are the best building in the game.

    There are actually 3 phases.
    1. 100% science. Research all religions and free speech.
    2. 100% gold. Spread all religions and build all cathedrals.
    3. 100% culture. Generate as much culture as fast as possible. Have your extra cities build artists.

    This is only useful if the other 2 cities reached the limit already. You lose free speech by switching to bureaucracy.

    Pacifism doesn't work if you have no state religion. I recommend you adopt the state religion of your strongest neighbor.
     
  7. Orca

    Orca Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    108
    Didnt thought about playing it this way.
    If you buy those do you have to pay less if you got the appropriate bonus resource ?
     
  8. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    Dace, i have a problem with your point 2, it is very hard to impossible to spread all religions, let alone more then 4 or 5 on higher difficultys on huge maps, last game i tried my missionarys failed to spread the 5th religion very often but it was to late to build more cathedrals then.
     
  9. Perugia

    Perugia Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    524
    Location:
    Lancing, UK
    Civics to Employ

    Phase 1 - Get into Representation asap plus whatever else to build up your empire.

    Phase 2 - 100% gold presumes you switch before the end of phase 2 to Universal Suffrage so you can rush those cultural buildings. The Pyramids are essential cos you want to waste time researching Democracy.

    I would also switch to Bureaucracy at this time and leave minimum research path to Liberalism.

    You might consider Serfdom to finish the land improvements while moving your excess artists into food or commerce for the duration. Obviously revert to Caste System in the final revolution to Free Speech.

    If you aren't Spiritual you can stay in Organised Religion initially to get the 25% extra beakers for all state religion cities and then switch to Universal Suffrage in a separate revolution when you have a good pot of gold.

    I don't think any of the Economy civics are essential. Mercantilisms 1 free artist per city looks tempting but you don't need to waste research on banking and no foreigh trade routes will cost commerce and make other covs more likely to attack you. Go for free market if you can get the economics in trade or use science to be ist and get a free great Merchant.

    Phase 3 -

    Leg - Free Speech
    Lab - Caste System or (maybe) Emancipation if available
    Eco - None or Free Market if available
    Rel - Pacifism

    Gov - Any
    If you still want a little science make it Representation. For war to capture foreigh religions or defend go for Police State. For rushing/building those last few cathedrals Universal Suffrage

    If you can get Nationalism then build/chop your Hermitage which is twice as good as a cathedral and needs no religion or temples while your other two cities build culture.

    Chops

    Reserve these for wonders/buildings you have the bonus resources for. Each chop then gives a 100% multiplier and double the hammers. Chop a mixture on ones outside and inside the fat cross so you can still work some forests until you have enough improvements for your pop to work.
     
  10. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    im going to have to ask people to state the difficiculty levels map shapes and map sizes they win games on, before i take their advice without questions. i dont like to take other peoples knowledge for granted.
     
  11. Orca

    Orca Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2005
    Messages:
    108
    Hehe yes some statements from this guy really look like he is a pretty average player - No offense meant, if you dont have inside knowledge of the game dont comment like this though Perugia ;) .
    e.g. you wont see any expert player advicing to work forest tiles or keep them for far later chopping.
    On the other hand you really want to trust DaveMcW, he is a decent player.
     
  12. lanzon

    lanzon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1

    This may be obvious for more experienced players, but to maximize the use of cathedrals you are going to want to have at least 12 cities. Since you generaly need to have 4 temples for each cathedral this allows you to build a cathedral to each of your religions, in each of your three culture cities.



    I just won a cultural victory on monarch and only had 9 cities for most of the early game. Once is saw the limit this was going to place on me, I had to try to squeeze 3 more cities into very limited territory. Fortunately, just as I was despairing ove where I would put the third city, a neighboring Aztec city revolted and joined my Civ.



    Another observation I had was this: I am suprised that the AI do not decide to attack when they can clearly see that you are going to win a cultural victoy in 10-20 turns. It seems like the obvious thing to do. Of course, I was only playing on Monarch, so maybe the AI acts more agressive on the higher levels.
     
  13. tempuraki

    tempuraki Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    122
    I actually do switch to free rel. in the late game. Having no state rel. allows each rel. in a city to contribute 1pt of culture/turn, so say if your almost legendary cities has 5 rel. and 5 cathedrals, each one gets 5 base+5x100% culture slider+5x100% free speech+5x250% cathedral = 32pt/turn. and if any of the cities is also a holy city of some sort, it addes another 5 base pt. if you have a state rel then only the state rel. produces culture, in this example, 5pt/turn.

    Pacifism is also good, but I find that it works best if you have a good GPP farm setup, and playing as philosophical leader. and even then it could take a while to produce a GPP in the late games. So I think free religion is worthwhile.

    Btw, I play on monarch, huge, continent, epic. usually as Elizabeth or Saladin.
     
  14. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2002
    Messages:
    6,489
    Ok, so Free Religion gives 32cpt in each culture city.

    Let's assume you get 14 Great People in the game, making the cost of the next one 3000 GPP. Each Artist gives 6000 culture. Therefore, each GPP in a specialist farm is worth 2 culture. If you have 7 specialists making 21 base GPP, Pacifism gives a bonus of 21 * 2 = 42 cpt in each specialist farm.

    So if you have 3 specialist farms, Pacifism is better. If you have 2 specialists farms I would seriously consider Pacifism, due to its lower upkeep.
     
  15. LulThyme

    LulThyme Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    622
    you fixed time in your analysis, but if you let time vary, it seems the value of free religion can only increase (as you got more bonuses) while the value of pacifism only decrease to 0 (asympt.)
    So there has to be a threshold point where Free Religion is better.
    If it happens before the end of the game depends on a few factor, I think most important being how many Great Artist you have built up to now...
     
  16. walkerjks

    walkerjks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    443
    True, but assuming you are non-spiritual, you also have to factor in the cost of a lost turn of culture generation. I suppose at normal speed there are a couple of opportunities to combine free religion with another civics switch, but late single switches or even combo switches at lower speeds can cost you more culture than you gain from the new civic.

    But you are correct - at some point you can predict the cost of the switch and also the benefit. It's worth looking at when the great person costs start getting really high.

    You have to do the same analysis if you trade for (or are gifted) Economics late in the game. +1 trade route is very nice, but doesn't always make sense if there isn't a lot of time left in the game.
     
  17. spiceant

    spiceant Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    177
    i find founding more then 2 cathedrals (>8 citys) is rather wastefull because of the upkeep it incurs, both in civics and city maint which seems to amplify exponantially, going upward with each difficulty. on lower difficultys its no problem though. in addition you'r going to have to build all the temples in all the tiny squeezed in citys which might also be forcing your borders into neighbouring territory which is not what you want in a peacefull game.
    a high % might look good but a high% with medium base culture/turn is the same as medium & with high base culture/turn, except that medium% and high culture/turn is cheaper.
     
  18. tempuraki

    tempuraki Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    122
    Under free religion (FR) the same 7 specialists are still producing GPP, so in your analysis, pacifism (PAC) should only give bonus of 21 cpt.

    there are too many variables to consider, but basically, PAC gives you extra GP, and FR gives you extra cp. I did a little analysis comparing FR and PAC (it is done with only 1 GPP farm in mind, I am not sure how it will apply to multiple farms):

    since each GP is worth 6000 cp, that means under FR, each city need to produce more than extra 2000 cp before PAC produces an extra GP.

    in our example, under free religion, 2000 (per city) / 32cppt (per city) = ~60 (the # of turns it takes under FR to produce extra culture point equivalent to an extra GP).

    So this means if the extra GPP generated under pacifism can help you get a GP in less than 60 turns, then it's worthwhile to be in pacifism. else no.

    in our example, it takes 3000 GPP to get the next GP, so in order for PAC produce a GP in 60 turns, PAC needs to provide 3000/60=50 more GPP than FR. if PAC gives you 50 or more GPP, then PAC is better, else FR is better.

    in our example, the difference is only 21 GPP, therefore it is better to be under FR. If however, your GP farm produces 60 base GPP and 120 under PAC, the difference is 60, then PAC will yield more culture.

    Or, suppose the difference is still 21 GPP, but FR only produces 10 extra cp per turn, then we need 2000/10=200 turns to match the culture produced by a GP, and therefore PAC only needs to produce 3000/200= 15 extra GPP to beat FR. PAC is also better in this case becasue it produces 21 extra GPP, more than the 15 it needs to beat FR.

    also keep in mind that the amount of GPP needed to get a GP grows, to PAC will need to provide more and more GPP as time goes on to match the output of FR.

    um, i hope that makes sense. Anyway, my point is that free religion can be better than pacifism, especially in the late game when it takes a long time to get a GP under any civic, and when you have most of the religions spreaded and cathedrals built.
     
  19. Phabi

    Phabi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Hi all,
    I've been lurking (and playing) for a while and now I'll post some thoughts on cultural victories.

    I started playing as Noble (I already played for years civ and civ2) and after a couple of games I switched to Prince.

    I am not a warmonger usually and like Cultural victories better than space race (I still have to try diplo victory, though).

    It seems that many of you switch to 100% culture quite early in the game while I do that much later, so I try to build wonders like the Kremlin, at least one or two among Rock-n-Roll, Hollywood and Broadway so to get three cities pumping a few hundreds culture per turn. While all the cities are pumping great artists (I try to grow as many cities as I can at around 30) so to get 5 or 6 great artists in the last few turns.

    Cathedrals are the most important buildings, I try to get as many religions as I can, I try to found one or two, but then try to make other religions spread to my new cities (e.g. not sending a missionary of mine, but building a road to some foreign city with a religion I need).

    I don't get Scientific Method until I build at least one monastery for each religion, so then I can build all the missionaries I need.

    I didn't quite understand the rules for spreading religion, but it seems that it is easier to spread a religion to very big cities (above 20), even if they already have several religions, so as my cities grow I send missionaries and build temples everywhere and cathedrals in my three big ones.

    I have to build universities and banks almost everywhere in order to build Oxford in my science city and Wall Street in my money city (the one where I found one religion, and with all the cottages).
    I send also missionaries from my religion everywhere, so I keep a couple of cities continuously pumping missionaries.
    While my "production" city pumps infantry or machine guns to defend all the other cities.
    (BTW, It seems that with Pacifism I cannot build the Heroic Epic, or West Point, is that documented anywhere ?)

    I usually keep culture to around 20% and science to 80% and switch to culture 100% only towards the end (e.g. after I get mass media or so).

    I play random leaders, so things can change a lot with a spiritual leader or a militaristic one, but more or less this is it (I liked a lot financial+organized).

    I would say, though, that lots depend on the beginning, having a couple of good resources (e.g. Iron and Horses, or Rocks and Marble) near your first two cities can make a huge difference (in the first case I try to get an early civ after I build my third city, so to have 6 or 7 cities before 1AD, in the other I can go for some wonders instead and slowly build my settlers).

    Another lucky factor that can be determining is if there is or not some island at "trireme" distance from yout mainland. This makes a huge difference when the continent gets crowded and you cannot build more cities until you get astronomy.

    Happy playing,

    Phabi
     
  20. walkerjks

    walkerjks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    443
    A lot of this has to do with difficulty level. At high difficulty levels, you will often get beat to the media cultural wonders. And if you are good enough to get there first and built the cultural wonders, you would probably still be better off trading tech advancement for culture earlier. You can get 1000 culture/turn in a city with just Liberalism and Music (given enough cottage development). You can get 1500/turn with the media wonders, but 50 turns at 1000 culture/turn is worth just as much as 33 turns at 1500 culture/turn.
     

Share This Page