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Cultural Victory on the Higher Levels

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by jesusin, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Hi,

    Believe it or not, no there was only 1 religion. There was only me and Inca on my continent.

    I stopped at RP so that I could go full culture slider asap, but still 'coast' to rifles in 20 turns or so. But the time to legendary was so long, I ended up having to turn it back on for Assembly Line anyway.

    What I should have done, is continued researching and picked up the later game culture boosters before I switched. I had a great cottage democracy going and I sort of threw it away when I went for the slider.
     
  2. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    If your goal is the earliest date, you should complete Liberalism very early (getting free Nationalism) with very few diversions such as Music. Switch to Free Speech and set the Culture slider to the maximum possible. Use Artist +1Bpt to complete Printing Press. No other technology is needed for a Cultural Victory.

    Your best defense against AIs that use DoW against you is pick the most Peaceful opponents and the least number of them allowed by the HOF for your chosen Map size. Next step is get them all up to Pleased or better in Diplomacy, primarily via lopsided Tech trades in their favor (+4 Diplomacy). Be sure to sign Open Borders with all Civs (at least those with Religions); this will provide +1 Diplomacy in 10 turns and +2 Diplomacy in 50 turns.

    If you do all the above successfully and early enough, you should not need any Military units stronger than Warriors. Note that the last useful Military Technology for a Cultural Victory is Bronze Working for the Chopping it allows.

    However, it may be useful to trade for Military Technologies after stopping Research for the significant Power boost it provides. Sometimes a little extra Power (from traded Military Technologies) plus good Diplomacy is enough to prevent DoWs. You really don't want to build more than one low cost Military unit per City, since the extra Hammers are better used building Cathedrals and other Culture Multipliers or Cultural Buildings.

    You flipped the Culture switch far too late rather than too early.

    It would be helpful if you mentioned when you got key Cultural Technologies like Writing, Alphabet, Music, and Liberalism. For a Cultural Victory it is best to Research Writing -> Alphabet -> Music -> Liberalism or Writing -> Alphabet -> Liberalism -> Music.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  3. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    @ Sun Tzu Wu - Thank you for your input.

    I will admit, I am not a master of diplomacy. And I dont think its very fair to hand pick your opponents. Therefore, I have to build some units to defend myself. I will give some thought to the 'warrior defence' and see what I can do and I will work on my diplomacy.
     
  4. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    PMs exchange between jesusin and Jayhawks, a Vanilla player with interest in beating Deity via culture:

     
  5. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    1. Do you always maximize growth in your 3 cultural cities even at the expense of production, research, and sometimes commerce?

    No, not at all. I sacrifice pop for production when I whip my temples and cathedrals. I sacrifice pop for GPP when I starve my cities by hiring more artist than I can support.


    2. Do you ever sacrifice population early on, or do you simply shift to production instead?

    Are you referring to whipping under slaverry? Yes I do so in the early game, the best granary is the whipped granary :lol:



    3. Is Elizabeth the best leader? Gandhi seems quite powerful.

    Those two and Saladin are my favourites. Don't forget to try the Incans and their UU too! They are all comparable.


    4. Do the earliest cultural wins require the pyramids?

    I am not the holder of the fastest cultural win! But I'm almost sure the answer is no. Read about many other ways to win a cultural deity game in the first post of this thread.


    5. Do you increase the culture bar early to maintain growth via happiness?

    Only as a last resource. The best way is to have a lot of happiness resources. Next best is to have a couple of warriors per city after having traded for Monarchy and revolted to HR.
    Drama is not usually researched early anyway.

    6. What is your usual early build order in your 3 cultural cities? Buildings only not
    workers/settlers.


    Please be sure to read the first posts in this thread. Afterwards please tell me what you think and ask again if it is not completely answered yet.


    7. Do you get the initial border expansion in new cities via culture bar, obelisk, temple, or library and chopping?

    Lucky cities get it via naturally spread religion.
    Early cities get it via obelisk.
    Late cities get it by hiring an artist under CasteSystem.


    8. Do you even build the obelisk?

    Yes, often. Early cities can't wait to get those all important resources inside their borders.


    9. Do you allow open borders from the get go to get religions spreading asap or hold off for a bit to block off AIs expansion?

    I generally OB asap.
    Only if I am controlling the mouth of a peninsula (or similar situations) I won't open borders to reserve all that land to myself.


    10. Do you only construct a scientific academy in the capital?

    Yes.

    Once you have your capital Academy, an early GS bulbed towards Education adds more research than a second Academy would.

    Anyway, the benefits of a second Academy are not comparable to the benefit of a Great Artist used as a GreatWork. So I try not spawn too many non artist GreatPeople.


    11. How early do you start your GP farm?

    In Vanilla, as soon as you can. The earliest the better. 500BC would be a nice date, but you don't get Pacifism and the NE built in 500BC every game.


    12. Do you usually trade your techs right away or sometimes wait?

    I wait sometimes. You have to learn when to wait and when waiting would mean others trade away your trade bait leaving you out in the cold.


    13. Are there any wonders worth producing a GE to complete?

    No.

    Ok, if you've built the Pyramids and get a GE, then use it on Parthenon or Sistine's. What I mean is you prefer to get a GA than a GE.


    14. Should I try to tech philosophy before the AI or trade for it?

    I love to get Philo first. You get a religion and also Philo gets deprioritized in AI's minds once the religion is gone, so you are almost guarrantied to be first to Liberalism.
    Other players do not agree here.

    15. Is there a reward for being the first to circumnavigate the world?

    Yes, your ships can move 1 more tile per turn. Not very useful in a cultural game.


    16. Do you use multiple GP farms or just one?

    Multiple.
    It is true that it is better to have 1 single GPFarm with 10 artists than 2 GPFarms with 6 and 4 artists each.
    But it is also true that if you have only a 6 artists GPFarm, then having another (or another half dozen) city with 4 artists can only help, as long as it is able to pop a single GA.

    17. Are there any resources that you consider a must, and if you don't get them you start a new map?

    No, you can win a cultural Deity game if you lack a certain resource, no matter which.
    Having said that, Marble is sorely missed when I don't have it. A happy resource (gold, gems) in the initial screenshot is a big help too.
    A dozen pigs tiles around the capital can't hurt, either. ;)

    I have more but this is already too much.

    Please, feel free to keep asking! :goodjob:
    When someone asks we all learn!
     
  6. Jayhawks

    Jayhawks Chieftain

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    Sorry in advance for the wall of text everyone. Tried some new things on a few games, always immortal, balanced, 4AI, low, temperate, normal, ancient, vanilla v1.61.

    Most recently played as Gandhi, love the fast worker. Pretty good map. Capital had 3 grass hills, 1 floodplain, wheat, wine, silk, pig, and lots of trees and grass. City 2 was my primary GP farm with sheep, corn, 2 grass hills, 2 plains hills, and lots of grass and trees. City 3 was a hybrid production/cottage city with a grass cow as the only resource, but 3 grass hills and 2 plains hills with grass next to river for 2 farms. Cities 1-3 had fresh water and were my culture cities. City 4 was a resource grabbing city that later became a better GP farm than city 2 after late border expansion but NE was already built so it became a secondary GP farm. City 5 was pure production with grass horse, grass iron, plain copper, 2 grass hills and 1 plain hill that i foolishly tried to pump out missionaries spreading buddhism (founded) to neighbors so they wouldn't invade after I switched to pacifism (didn't work). I had the choice of hinduism or judaism to appease neighbors, 3 were hindu, closest and most dangerous neighbor was judaism. City 6 was a fringe city just for temple production for cathedrals, and was founded late.

    In regards to the religion, which I can't seem to master, I'm always asked to convert to a religion by someone, and then another civ demands to switch to theirs (I always remain without state religion until pacifism stage if possible). In a previous game as Elizabeth I tried the switch back and forth thing but they invaded after switching twice, game over. So, this time I tried the spread my own religion thing via the pure production city, and it was working to a certain extent, at least on two of the four AIs, but not the most dangerous two. I'm wondering if I would have had better results if I had built maceman and knights instead of missionaries to deter invasion? I even gave a luxury resource for free to mansa the jew cuz I declined his demand to convet thinking the other 3 would have demanded to switch to hindu and then game over like before with Elizabeth. What didn't make sense was mansa must have used 6-8 missionaries to spread judaism to all my cities... Why would he invade? Wasn't there an unhappy "we don't want to fight our brothers of the faith" thing? Additionally, there were more positives than negatives but the negatives were -4 heathen faith and -1 refused our religion conversion. Maybe he was pissed he spent so much effort trying to make me a vassal (read about vassals somewhere). I traded/gave away all my luxuries before the invasion but it didn't stop him. I always thought mansa was the most peaceful?

    What was upsetting is that I was having a great game, my best so far. I built pyramids, hanging gardens, notre dame, taj, and sistine (no GE used or spawned). My GPfarms had 7 and 8 artists respectively (after mercantilism). After metal casting, which I researched after alphabet, I had research at 100% running negative gold the whole time until I shut it off after liberalism and the subsequent free nationalism (traded for pp later) because they never had enough techs to trade so I would get all their gold (had 1500 at one point, later bought/chopped hermitage in GPfarm primary and temples with US).

    A couple of nuances I ran into. Even though I was having a good game I think Elizabeth is probably the best leader. She can pop a GS from the future GPfarm after whipping a library (I'm getting there with the terminology) for a research academy in the capital very early, and the financial trait is probably more useful than the industrious trait, especially on deity, and early on those instant 3 commerce grassland cottages next to rivers are extremely helpful when the economy hurts from REXing those first 4 cities. I'm thinking that the pyramids aren't needed if I could just get 2/3 of gold, gems, silver (yet to happen) for happiness. That would also allow cottages to be worked from the get go preventing alphabet taking 35 turns to research (got no gold from tribal villages to run negative). Then again if I had 2/3 of gold, gems, silver I wouldn't have that problem anyway.

    I know this is getting long, but I have lots more Qs. What do you research after beelining to alphabet? Instead of going for metal casting, I'm thinking of holding off trading alphabet, assuming I can research it in 25 turns or less (no pyramids), until I can research literature, then trade both and hopefully someone has CoL and/or monarchy by then instead of getting gold and "unfair" trades. In godonut's thread someone mentions the AI is slow to research alphabet anyway. If you don't mind, I would be insterested to hear your usual line(s) of research for the entire game, as nobody seems to outline anything beyond alphabet.

    EDIT: One more thing. How come after I trade alphabet the very next turn the AI has techs that require alphabet? Do they carry over beakers or something? Also, in your timeline you're able to temple and cathedral spam relatively early, 500ad. I usually don't even have music until 300-500ad... I trade for it, do you research it?
    EDIT2: Last thing I swear. You say that you whip for temples and cathedrals around 500ad +/-, but you also say you get the NE around 500bc optimally. So are you briefly switching back to slavery from CS to whip, and then back again to continue GPfarm?
     
  7. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Why not Vanilla v1.74? Also, winning a Cultural Victory is much easier with BtS 3.17, especially due to its much more powerful The Sistine Chapel.

    Metal Casting is a waste of time in a normal Cultural Game (especially for Deity level).

    After Alphabet, you want to beeline one of several key Technologies, Code of Laws (Caste System), Civil Service (Bureaucracy), Philosophy (bulb it to discourage AI pursuit of Philosophy as jesusin already mentioned above; Pacifism), Literature (National Epic), Music (Cathedrals) and Liberalism (Free Nationalism; Free Speech). Not necessarily in the order listed, though the order listed is somewhat reasonable.

    You should consider Civil Service via the Oracle, especially at Immortal level, to get +50% Commerce and Hammers in the Capital very early when it counts the most. Only the very best Players are usually successful in doing this at Deity level.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  8. Jayhawks

    Jayhawks Chieftain

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    Played as Gandhi again, and won in 1725 this time, 1 turn after apollo program, so an improvement over my 1802 win. I play vanilla v1.61 cuz when i tried to update to 1.74 the program bugged out and wouldn't work so i had to uninstall and reinstall (crappy video card probably), then got 1.61 again from firaxis website. Trust me, I want to play what everyone else is cuz I hate knowing my version is easier. My computer is a p.o.s '02 h.p. xp media center i bought for $50, so not at all optimized for graphics intense games (LOL my monitor was $500). In fact I often have to reboot when wonders freezeout the game cuz i only have 512mb of ram. I could get a gig for $44 but why invest in this crappy computer when the ram isn't compatible with a newer system anyway and I have no chance of making the HOF list.

    So systems aside, thank you for your input Sun Tzu. If I understand correctly you go agriculture>bronze>wheel>pottery>writing>alphabet>CoL>bureaucracy>philo>paper>education>liberalism(free nationalism)>PP. Trade for music, literature, drama, and others like calendar monarchy etc.

    What I don't get is the bulbing. It doesn't let me choose what I bulb. How do you ensure you will be able to bulb philo and not machinery or something?

    I'm thinking I'm about ready for deity, and am going to play as elizabeth. What wonders do you build? If you don't build pyramids how do you get cathedrals up quickly enough for an early win considering the two non GPfarm cities are cottage spammed? It seems like if you don't build the pyramids you need some very specific resources to do well. Marble, stone, copper, gold, gems, one 5-6fpt resource or 2-3 4fpt in the cottage spammed cities as well as at least 3 mines. Anyway, too long already.
     
  9. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

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    @Jayhawks

    Religion: in the scenario you describe I would have probably converted to the 3 civs religion and then bribed some of them to dow Musa, that way Musa would be too busy to attack me.

    Music: I usually research it to start building cathedrals sooner.

    Vassals: They don't exist in Vanilla.

    Musa the peaceful: He'll never dow as long as he is pleased.

    Slavery and GPFarming: yes, short bursts of slavery in between long periods of Castes+Pacifism are great. That's why Spiritual leaders are very good for cultural games.

    Research: skip MC, go for Lite and Music. Skip BW, trade for it with Alpha.

    Research path: it is game dependant, but one possibiliity would be
    agriculture>wheel>pottery>writing>alphabet (trade for all small techs)>CoL>bureaucracy >philo>Lite>Music>paper>education>liberalism(free nationalism)>Drama (traded if possible)>0%
    Trade for all the rest.

    Bulbing preferences: there is a list of preferred techs to bulb by GP written by DaveMcW in the strategy forum.

    Patch 1.73: This patch has no increased system requirements compared to 1.63. Try downloading it from this site, instead of in game advanced menu. You can also disable WW videos, choosing the low quality video options, etc.

    Your city description: I have the feeling you place too high a vlaue on hills. For example, in the GPFarm you are never going to use the hills again once you've built the NE.

    WW: Don't build any. Win a handful of games this way. Then, when you've got the feeling for victory, start building 1 single wonder each game and see which WW hurt your game and which help you.

    Question about building Cathedrals without Pyramids: you mean you are paying good money for those cathedrals? Try whipping them with a Spiritual leader. Try chopping them or just building them with mines (be sure to get an early Music in the latter case).

    Dates: You are not stating the key dates of your game. Try to get Liberalism and Music done by 1AD-500AD.

    GA: How many GA have you farmed by 1500AD?

    Cottages: How many cottages are you runing around 1AD? Is your research capacity in the 150-200bpt range?
     
  10. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    While I agree it is important to see that a Cultural game can be Won without World Wonders, I wouldn't necessarily do so when attempting a very early date.

    Actually, a World Wonder spam Strategy could be quite effective at Immortal level. Even at Deity, it is viable; see Bram's game:

    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=12730

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  11. babybluepants

    babybluepants Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I keep wondering about this myself, and also the similar switch between pacifism and OR... Being spiritual helps, especially given the temple build bonus. I try to make this switch last the shortest amount of time possible, by pre-chopping forests and lining up my build orders as well as possible. How do the better players deal with this?
     
  12. Jayhawks

    Jayhawks Chieftain

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    Ahhh, nice article by DaveMcW. So from what I gather a GS would be the best way to bulb philo? Thanks again jesusin and sun tzu for your input. I will try to keep better stats for analysis jesusin. I'm too green to get too detailed though. Trying to get lots of experience right now. Only taking about 7-8hrs per game... If I guessed I would say by 1ad I have 6-8 cottages in the capital as I am still working mines and food sources, by the end even my hills have cottages in the capital. Bpt dunno. So with your money you simply run negative to pump out 100% culture instead of buying buildings?
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    In my opinion, Spiritual is the best trait for a Cultural game, simply because of the half priced Temples. Depending on Map size, one will need to build 2-4 Temples for each Cathedral planned. Every Cultural game should have at least a few Cathedrals for multiplying Culture in 1-3 Cultural Cities.

    The Spiritual trait in Vanilla and Warlords is also somewhat important to avoid Anarchy. However, BtS has a better way to avoid Anarchy that slightly devalues the Spiritual trait. Any Leader can switch Religions or Civics without Anarchy while in a Golden Age. BtS has a huge advantage in starting a Golden Age by requiring the use of just one Great Person rather than two for the first Golden Age (generated by Great People).

    The better Players balance all aspects of the Game to optimize the time to three Cities with Legendary Culture. It is a process of determining what is essential to achieve an early Win and making it happen as early as possible. Pre-Chopping may be a big factor in extremely fast building the very early Library in the Capital and the essential National Wonders (National Epic and Hermitage). There should not be very many things to build, unless a World Wonder Spam Strategy is being applied.

    I strongly recommend that a World Wonder Spam Strategy be avoided, at least when learning to Win a Cultural Game very early. As jesusin has pointed out in his Guide, the major source of raw (un-multiplied) Culture will be the Commerce (Cottages) in the three Culture Cities, with the likely exception of the Great Artist Farm. You won't notice this until the Culture slider to set to 100%.

    So please Win at least a few Cultural games without building a single World Wonder. After you have done that, you may understand how really powerful early Cottages can be. Try building as many Cottages as possible in all your Cultural Cities, except the Great Artist Farm. Again, as jesusin notes in his Guide, the Great Artists produced by the Great Artist Farm(s) will be the second greatest source of raw Culture. Note that BtS' National Park can be more efficient than any Great Artist Farm in producing Great Artists.

    After winning without any World Wonders, try Winning with just the key World Wonder, The Sistine Chapel. After that try building other key World Wonders, especially those generating Great Artist GPPs. Among other World Wonders, The Pyramids is notable, since it allows very early Representation which provides extra Happiness for the 4-6 largest Cities and also gives a 3 Bpt bonus for each Specialist which is a great Research boost for all those Artists in the Great Artist Farm.

    The World Wonder Spam Strategy really only works well with BtS due to Gene Pool pollution (the generation of Great People that are not Great Artists, except for the first 1-2 Great Scientists that are generated intentionally via the Capital's Library). Any Great People that are not Great Artists can be expended in the generation of one or more Golden Ages. This works best in BtS, since more Golden Ages can be started/are easier to start and the Golden Ages also increase the rate of GPP generation by +100%. To increase this benefit, The Mausoleum of Maussollos, can be built which increases all Golden Ages by +50%.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Generate a two Great Scientists via the Capital's working two Scientists in its Library. The first Great Scientist builds an Academy in the Capital. The second Great Scientist is best used to Bulb Philosophy, assuming no AI has already founded Taoism. If so, you found Taoism and all the AIs hopefully assign a low priority to Philosophy, making it easier for you to be first to Liberalism.

    In my opinion, you should be generating most of the Hammers needed by Chopping Forests. For Hammers from Hills, probably 2 grassland Hills would suffice. If possible, also settle on a Plains Hill for the extra Hammer per turn forever.

    Buying buildings via Treasury and Universal Suffrage is an obsolete Tactic. You really don't want to adopt Universal Suffrage until you are on the verge of having a dozen or more Towns that each get a one Hammer per turn bonus. Also, Commerce converted to Culture is a much better idea than converting it into buildings at a very steep price too.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  15. Jayhawks

    Jayhawks Chieftain

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    Sigh. Can't seem to figure out the early win. I think I need to work on my whipping, and building culture buildings early so they double. I have cottages up the wazzoo, my GPfarm pumps serious numbers, and I sprinted to bureaucracy and liberalism. I made sure that I had gold in my capital this time and it helped out a bunch, shaving 20-30 turns off the early techs (too bad I blew it). Lizzy, immortal, same settings as before.

    1AD: Capital(10)>7cott+gold;91bpt;grain;acad;lib;temple(2);(1/4)forge (hindu spread)
    GPfarm(6)>grain;obl;aqu;lib;8bpt;(1/2)NE (no religion spread here yet)
    3rdCult(5)>5cott;grain;obl;19bpt;(1/3)aqu (no religion spread here yet)
    ProdCity(4)>settler/worker factory;4bpt;11 hammer (founded taoism)
    City5>3bpt;stone;ivory(2);hill(2);coastal (prod city2, buddhism spread)
    GENERAL:16 to education;7workers;lit-music-philo::civics-HR,B,CS,OR

    500: Cap>added:2dye-forge-temple>120bpt
    GPfarm: (1/3)GA(first one), 3GAspecialists, 4unhappy(waiting for research shut off), NE
    3rdCult: 7cott>29bpt (probably should have had a lib here by now huh)
    GENERAL: 7 cities(cap;GAfarm;cult3;prod1;prod2;GAfarm2/cottage;cottaged coastal)
    8workers, 5religions, 3 to liberalism; research at 50% cult at 10%

    840:research shut off (lots more workers, didn't write down, maybe 13-15, finished with 17+)
    1500: Cap 479cpt; Cult3 324cpt; GAfarm 202cpt; GA(9)

    Finish 1770
    Cap 819cpt: all cult buildings; raw cult-182; +350% (building culture)
    Cult3 600cpt: 4cath;5mon; raw cult-120 +400% (building culture)
    GAfarm 264cpt: 2cath;4mon;thea;temp; 10GAspecialists>139GPP (building culture)
    >>>>>Probably wondering about the buildings in GAfarm, had grass horse river, hill pig, and with stone available double production, also chopped a few forests for farms late and after border expansion outside of city radius

    Don't know how many artists I popped but it was 2200 for the next one. Only built one wonder, Parthenon in 1470 AD (yes AD) by prod city2 after missionary spam left large hammer overflow. I wasn't going to build any SunTzu but I couldn't resist cuz there really wasn't anything else for that city to do. It didn't really help much, just took GAfarm from 124>139 GPP

    I think I know my problem, but maybe you guys can see something I'm missing. I think I need to get my bpt up a bit by 1ad, get music and lit earlier, and build my cult buildings earlier so they double and hit 50k faster.

    I'm thinking I should pick a religion pre-pacifism for the +25% prod bonus from OR, and simply do some unfair trades to keep AIs happy. I'm also considering building a few more farms to whip some buildings instead of hammering them out, and popping a second GS into CultCity3 instead of bulbing philo cuz it's not necessary to win the lib race on immortal (then again it would have been helpful to actually build a library in Cult3). I know it's not what the pros do but I think it will improve my finish date until my technique improves. Oh yeah one more crucial point. In order to win the philo race I bulbed with my first GS instead of academy. I know I know big mistake, need to work on my technique like I said.
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I'm going to be very critical in my comments that follow. I do this only to help you and anyone else reading along to play a better Game.


    You didn't mention your Starting Position. If you start out with a sub-standard Start, it may be impossible to get a Stellar finish Date.

    Your early growth (or lack of it) may be part of the problem. Your first build is a Worker, right? That Worker needs to build Gems and Gold mines. Your capital needs to be working several high Commerce tiles to accelerate Research very shortly after Turn 0.

    When did you build your first Library? When where your 1st and 2nd Great Scientists born? The Library should be chopped very early, right after Writing is completed. You should have 1-2 Scientists working shortly thereafter. Your 1st Great Scientist should be generated within 9 turns after the Library with 2 Scientists working. 2 Sci. * 2 Phi * 3 GPPpSci = 12 GPPpt. Great Scientist in x turns = 100 GPP / 12 GPPpt = 8.33 turns = 9 turns. If the second Great Scientist will be used to bulb Philosophy, he can be generated much slower with just one Scientist in 18 turns.

    Also, mention your Empire's status at 1000 BC.

    Don't build Forges. You should be winning the game before you have recovered from the Shortages caused by building the Forges plus Interest. There are better things to build than Forges. Surely, you didn't research Metal Casting, right?

    forge-temple: Skip the Forge and you'll build the Temple much earlier.

    Five religions is plenty, but did you spread them to all Cities yet via Missionaries? Actually, five Religions may be more than you should spread and use. Spread and use 3-4 Religions. A Cultural Win is possible with just 1-2 Religions, although a #1 Win is somewhat unlikely with only 1-2 Religions.

    Seven cities is too many as can be seen by 40% Commerce diverted to Wealth.

    You should go to 100% Culture right after being the first to complete Liberalism. 840 AD is much too late. What could you possibly be researching (full speed) after Liberalism that is critical to complete ASAP? When you win Liberalism, take Nationalism as your prize. Your Artist's 1 Bpt should be enough to slowly complete "Printing Press". You should still be able to get additional Technologies via Technology brokering, but don't waste any Commerce producing Research.

    Try to predict the number of Great Artists you will generate. Predict when your three Culture Cities will go Legendary, given an optimal distribution of your GAs Culture Bombs. If the Trailing City is short just a little, recompute with it building Culture (keeping in mind that built Culture is not affected by Culture Multipliers). If doing so, allows you to win a turn earlier, leave that City building Culture. All other Cities should be building Wealth, if needed to keep the Culture slider at 100%.

    Great Artist Farm has just Free Speech's +100%, right? No under utilized Culture Multipliers. That is excellent.

    Your other two Culture Cities may have a less than optimal Culture multipliers. The City with 182 raw Cpt should have a much larger Culture multiplier to maximize the effect of the Multipliers. It appears that Hermitage may have been built in the wrong City. However, this is only true if the City with higher raw Culture was several thousand Culture short of Legendary and needs to be Bombed to Legendary.

    Building Wealth may have been a better idea, if it was required to keep the Culture slider at 100%.

    Ideally, you want to complete Liberalism and switch to 100% Culture by 1 AD. Try maximizing Research very early as mentioned above by building and working Gems and Gold Mines, followed by building and working Cottages, and switching to Bureaucracy very early. It is good to get Music early (especially the free GA) and Literature early (to build National Epic early).

    Cultural buildings (excluding Wonders) aren't that important for Culture. The only one worth building is the Theatre, because it is cheap and at 3 Cpt it is probably worth the Hammers to build it. The Monastery is almost as cheap, but it is only 2 Cpt. Compare this to a Town with Free speech and Printing Press at 100% Culture slider. Do you want the Monastery or the extra Town with nearly 4x more raw Culture? What are you sacrificing to build that Monastery? Just think of the Wealth you could build instead that helps keep the Culture slider at 100%.

    In my opinion, you should be aiming for at least a 1200 AD Win. So how early do you need to build a Culture building so it doubles in Culture before you plan to Win? 200 AD. How much earlier do you need to build for the Culture doubling to have a significant effect? Let's just say 100 turns before 200 AD, so you will have Culture doubling for 100 turns before your Win. So, how early is that? Is it worth it?

    Yes, you can definitely convert to an early Religion to get +25% building Production, but what buildings are you going to build to make this worthwhile? There are very few buildings worth building. Temples are probably the most important, not because of their measly 1 Cpt, but because every 2-4 of them (depending on map size) of a particular Religion allow you to build one of that Religion's Cathedrals. Running Organized Religion is more important in building Missionaries with needing Monasteries. Plus one doesn't need to have a State Religion to do this. However, it is critical to have a State Religion that is contained in your Great Artist Farms when running Pacifism!

    Of course, it is never necessary to be first to Liberalism to Win, but you always should do your best to be first to Liberalism to get free Nationalism, but importantly to run Free Speech and 100% Culture as early as possible after Liberalism.

    Of course, you don't need to generate a second Great Scientist, nor do you need to bulb Philosophy with him. A 1st Great Artist may be better than a 2nd Great Scientist, especially when your Research is actually faster than the AIs which is not that hard to do at Immortal level, but may be impossible at Deity level.

    Yes, always generate an early Great Scientist and use him to build an early Academy in the Capital. I'm not aware of any Cultural Strategy that can generate a #1 Win that doesn't do this. If you used your 1st Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy, you generated it at least a thousand years too late.

    jesusin, you have demonstrated far more skill at Cultural games than I. So, please let us know where ever you think my advice has strayed from the mark and don't hold back. Be ruthless, if that allows us all to learn to be better Civ4 players.

    If you still have questions, please let me know.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    4,135
    Location:
    Madrid
    Thank you for the details. The more details you share the more feedback you'll get. :goodjob:

    General impression: too slow a start. You should be having 1 or 2 more cities and an additional 50%-100% bpt. The worst mistakes have already happened.

    Good workers/cities ratio, other players would say you are 1 worker short.

    Why aqueduct in cottages city? Even before library? Why only pop5? the 2nd cottage city (and the GPFarm) should be up and running very early. You will have a very hard time with this Legendary city, you are almost guarrantied not to be able to build Hermitage in the capital already.

    3 religions: great! What happened to confu, though? :sad: With 3 reloigions you can easily win, but it won't be a superearly finish. By 500AD all your cities should have all the religions, so you are behing schedule. You could have 1 or 2 cathedrals already by 1AD, your are far behing in development.

    Technology: you are more or less on schedule, congratulations! But your bpt from now on is a cause of concern.

    GPFarm: Almost NE in the BC, you are in great shape here.

    3 specialist only? You should be running 7-8. 4 unhappy? What do you mean? you are over the happiness limit? Can't you trade for more luxuries? Why don't you build 4 warriors in auxiliary cities to gather there under HR? Why don't you whip them into another temple that you'll need anyway? There has to be a better way of managing that situation!

    7 cottages in the Legendary city? 29 bpt that will be transformed into 29 cpt? That's nothing! Too few cottages, started to be worked too late.

    8 workers for 7 cities is rather short.

    Research 50%: should be 100%. Deity AI is filthy rich, sell them one of your techs for money.

    Culture 10%: why? don't start with this until Liberalism. Or do you mean you are using it for happiness and having 4 angry faces in the GPFarm anyway? :eek:
    I don't know what happened this game regarding happiness. Maybe you built your cities so late that all good resources where atekn by the AI. Don't let this happen again!

    500AD you were 3 turns away, but research was shut off 840AD. Why?
    I'll dare to say that whatever the reason, it was a mistake if your goal is an early finish.

    Cap is ok. More would be better, but it's ok. cult3 is seriously lagging. GAFarm is ok. The only problem is the date. Those are good figures for 500AD, when you've just shut off research, not for 1500AD.

    What's the problem? Have you built all cathedrals? Where have you used Hermit?

    Congratulations on your win.

    Forget about early cultural building doubling value, that's just a drop of water uin the ocean (it matters for tempels and monasteries in BTS, with Sistine).

    Get your religions spread and your cathedrals much sooner.

    Hurry to get the best city sites.

    Do lots of unfair trades, the more the better.

    You are learning a lot, cpngratulations. And I'm having a geeat time commenting your games too, thank you!
     
  18. Jayhawks

    Jayhawks Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2009
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Allen Field House
    @SunTzu:
    START AND CITY INFO
    Cap: on plains hill river, river connected to GAfarm&Cult3, gold, 2floodp, 2dye, hill pig shared w/GAfarm, 3grasshill, 3plains, rest grass
    GAfarm: on grassriver, 2banana, rice, shared grasshillpig, 2grass&1plain hill, rest all grass
    Cult3: on grassriver, only resource desert copper never worked, 2floodp, 3grasshill, 3plain, rest grass, one mountain
    Prod1: on grass, grass iron, rice, banana, grass&plain hill, 2forest&2regularplain, rest grass
    Prod2: on plain, plain&grass ivory, plain stone, 2grasshill, 4grass, 1plain, coastal
    Cottaged: on plainhill, fish, grass&plain hill, 8grass, coastal

    Worker is 1st unit in 12turns, did not research MC, the GAfarm has 2cath, also 4mon,thea,temp: cuz I had a grass river horse and hill pig plus some late chopping for farms, and outside the city radius, giving me extra hammers

    @Jesusin
    1ad: Cult3 is only pop5 cuz I have been working all cottages, and have no food or happiness resources to increase the size faster. The 2 floodp in that city were both cottaged. This city also built the hermitage from chopping in and outside the city radius
    Yes, I'm tarded, totally forgot I was running HR and could have managed happiness that way
    Missed Confucianism by 1 turn
    I would have loved to trade for resources, but by the time I had something to trade they had already traded them all away. The only thing I can think of is to trade away my gold and then later cancel the deal to sub it for one of my extra dye once I get calendar. There was fur for trade but it was gone early. Couldn't trade for any health resources besides corn. I later acquired spices from border expansion. Also wine was in my cult borders but not in a city radius.
    I continued to research PP at full speed after liberalism/nat. It took about 10-12 turns.
    Hermitage was built in Cult3

    THANK YOU GUYS FOR YOUR COMMENTS. I didn't think they were ruthless or mean in any way!! Simply honest. Once again I'm reading them thinking to myself "that's impossible," but I will keep at it anyway. I have done some things I thought were impossible before, so all you people to read this later, this is not impossible, it just takes a lot of time, technique, and a good start.

    Just so you guys know I am still cheating by revealing the map to see if it's playable, but am paying no attention to tribal village locations. I must have regenerated map 50 times for this last setup... I was looking for gold, river, and all land in the capital, at least 3 food resources for GAfarm, as well as 10cottagable tiles for Cult3. Didn't care about anything else.

    @SunTzu, I have said before I think 2of3 of gold, silver, gems is necessary and it appears your comments are reinforcing that belief.

    It also seems that at least one 5-6fpt resource is needed in every city to achieve the growth rates you mention while continuing to work cottages. One thing I still can't figure out is how quickly you are able to do things. I have read the article on whipping but am still confused... How can you whip, work cottages, grow, and pop settlers all at the same time and all before 1ad... Are you playing on marathon, normal, etc.? @both, what leader gave you your earliest finish? It just seems to me that you need an extremely resource rich area..........

    SunTzu Quote: "In my opinion, you should be aiming for at least a 1200 AD Win" The earliest win in the HOF for immortal small map vanilla is 1280
     
  19. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Madrid
    I wrote my comments before reading yours, but we have both said the same things, more or less. :goodjob:


    Moot point: the second GS takes 200GPP so with a single artist it would take 34 turns.

    Chopping the library: do you really do that? I haven't seen BW in your tech path. I always get BW in trade with Alpha, so I can't start chopping as soon as I've got Writing.


    Finally your target goal of 1200AD is a bit too exigent, IMO. I think anyone capable of winning by culture before 1500AD is playing a very good game.
     
  20. jesusin

    jesusin Ant GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    4,135
    Location:
    Madrid
    It is rarelly worth it to research PP. If I remember right, I did some calculations and only in games where your 3 cities are cottage-cities and you have 4 or 5 cathedrals per city it was a good idea.

    In general, skip it.
    Always fevolt to FS the turn you get Liberalism. Only exception is if you have a thousand forest to be chopped int he capital next turn.

    For the benefit of readers, you don't need to look at the map or to have a wonderful capital to win a cultural Deity game.

    Now, if you are aiming at a 1200AD victory, then you'd better get a nice map. The most important factor of all mentioned, in my opinion, is the 3 food resources for the GPFarm.
     

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