Cultural Victory should definitely be refined; let's discuss some suggestions

[sonicmyst]

Hope tourism goes back, but on the planned fourth age. This should come along with new works of art : Movies.

 

[stealth_nsk]

So let's say it's all about Tourism points. So you get 50 tourism points and win for example.
Then you just spam seaside resorts and win.

Cheesy strategies don't come from simplicity, they come from not enough playtesting and obscure mechanics are even more likely to have them. For example, saving faith for rock bands was really strong in Civ6.

Overall it's a matter of game design. Let's say Seaside Resorts require you to assign population there for them to work, or some other way to make them expensive to have. That way you'll have a choice between building them or pumping other parts like military or economics.

 

[GeneralZift]

Cheesy strategies don't come from simplicity, they come from not enough playtesting and obscure mechanics are even more likely to have them. For example, saving faith for rock bands was really strong in Civ6.

Overall it's a matter of game design. Let's say Seaside Resorts require you to assign population there for them to work, or some other way to make them expensive to have. That way you'll have a choice between building them or pumping other parts like military or economics.

So I mean you just moved the complexity from A to B lol

 

[stealth_nsk]

So I mean you just moved the complexity from A to B lol

It's not about complexity, it's more about things like transparency (the harder it's to understand and predict, the less strategic decisions you could make) and overall game design approach (Civ6 has a lot of accumulating mechanics - tourism, religious pressure, loyalty pressure).

 

[Krikkit1]

I think the key for making a victory interesting is interacting with other players

Having Cultural Victory as
My Points v Constant is
not as good as
My Points v Competitor Points

 

[GeneralZift]

It's not about complexity, it's more about things like transparency (the harder it's to understand and predict, the less strategic decisions you could make) and overall game design approach (Civ6 has a lot of accumulating mechanics - tourism, religious pressure, loyalty pressure).

Well about transparency I have to agree. Civ6 culture victory is quite confusing, and the numbers change every turn. And tbh I still don't understand how it works.

But Civ5 culture victory was very easy to understand. Your tourism > their culture and you win.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think the key for making a victory interesting is interacting with other players

Having Cultural Victory as
My Points v Constant is
not as good as
My Points v Competitor Points

Science victory always was about just reaching your goals first and it worked fine. Competition not necessary creates more strategic decisions.

I'd say more important is a way to hinder other's victories, but this could potentially be done through other mechanics like espionage.

 

[tedhebert]

Tourism was bad because it only worked on small maps… I played VI on huge maps and it was nearly impossible to get tourism victory because there was always a snowballing civ half the world away which you couldn’t anything about other than wiping them out, which killed the feeling of playing a pacific culture game…

I don’t want it back !

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Hope tourism goes back, but on the planned fourth age. This should come along with new works of art : Movies.

I wouldn't be surprised if some form of the Rock Band comes back. I could the unit being more general like "Music Artist" and you acquire Album Great works by performing in different civilization cities. Fits in with most of the other ages having a unit and great work tied to it.

Also goes well with my proposed "Counterculture" crisis.

The "Golden Age of Cinema" would fit in more with the Modern Age that we have now.

 

[stealth_nsk]

If we speculate about potential 4th age, I'd expect great works to be economic ones - brands. I think it would better reflect contemporary world. Also we have 1 age with great works being scientific and 2 ages with them being cultural. Economic one should be fun.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If we speculate about potential 4th age, I'd expect great works to be economic ones - brands. I think it would better reflect contemporary world. Also we have 1 age with great works being scientific and 2 ages with them being cultural. Economic one should be fun.

That could also work considering Products were considered Great works in the Corporations Mode in Civ 6. Of course the "Music Artist" touring other civilizations could still work generating legacy points for the Cultural path if the Economic one becomes associated with Great Works.

 

[Krikkit1]

Science victory always was about just reaching your goals first and it worked fine. Competition not necessary creates more strategic decisions.

I'd say more important is a way to hinder other's victories, but this could potentially be done through other mechanics like espionage.

And science is a fairly boring Victory

 

[stealth_nsk]

And science is a fairly boring Victory

Yes. Science victory is often a failsafe victory when you can't reach any other.

But overall designing interesting victory conditions is a huge game design task, which requires a lot of playtesting. And still it will be different for different people.

 

[GeneralZift]

Tourism was bad because it only worked on small maps… I played VI on huge maps and it was nearly impossible to get tourism victory because there was always a snowballing civ half the world away which you couldn’t anything about other than wiping them out, which killed the feeling of playing a pacific culture game…

I don’t want it back !

Just because Civ6 did it badly does not mean it's a bad mechanic.

 

[Uberfrog]

Tourism in Civ 6 was a mixed bag.

It was good because it genuinely enabled a range of different strategies to achieve victory.

It was bad because it had a needlessly complex moving goalpost of a win condition, and was so obscure in its calculation that even the game couldn’t consistently predict how many turns away victory was.

It was similar to many civ victories in that it required you to keep churning out tourism even when it was clear you were likely to win.

Overall, Civ 5’s implementation was neater, even if there wasn’t so much freedom in how you could generate it.

I’m surprised it is completely absent from Civ 7’s culture victory. A streamlined version that also encompassed wonders and great artists, would’ve been preferable to a pure archaeology victory.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Tourism in Civ 6 was a mixed bag.

It was good because it genuinely enabled a range of different strategies to achieve victory.

It was bad because it had a needlessly complex moving goalpost of a win condition, and was so obscure in its calculation that even the game couldn’t consistently predict how many turns away victory was.

It was similar to many civ victories in that it required you to keep churning out tourism even when it was clear you were likely to win.

Overall, Civ 5’s implementation was neater, even if there wasn’t so much freedom in how you could generate it.

I’m surprised it is completely absent from Civ 7’s culture victory. A streamlined version that also encompassed wonders and great artists, would’ve been preferable to a pure archaeology victory.

You nailed why tourism did not work in civ6. If you made the culture victory about reaching a certain fixed number of tourism pointa that would make it more transparent and avoid the moving goal posts problem in civ6. Also wonders, relics from the exploration age, codices from the antiquity age and artifacts from the modern age, could generate tourism points per turn once you get certain civics. You could build the world's fair, slot in codices, relics and artifacts, generate tourism per turn (plus tourism points from wonders) and once you hit say 500 tourism points, you win.Yeah, it would basically be a reskinned econ victory but at least it would be straightforward and reward culture play.

 

[McSpank01]

I'm generally against any victory condition that feels like a game of collecting 'a thing', so I massively hate the race for codices or relics or anything like that. It feels gamey, it isn't immersive. Civilisations were not considered great because they had 12 relics. I liked Tourism in 6 because it felt like you win by making your civilisation a certain way and you shape it to become excellent at this one thing. The weakness was that it ended up being about making the Tourist number tick up (in an overly complex way) but essentially at a basic level it was about you creating a culturally magnificent empire. Similarly if you wanted to win a science victory it was often about creating a technologically advanced, production powerhouse civilisation, which can then produce the things needed to win that victory type.

It didn't always work, and you often just create a civ that does everything that snowballs all victory types, but I appreciated that there was scope to go in one direction and sculpt your empire. That way you are almost doing city building and goal chasing at the same time.

You do not get that feeling when all you are doing is pumping out unit types or buildings mindlessly in order to hit an abitrary number.

 

[reddishrecue]

Tourism with the social policy advent of hegemony is already a good component of the culture victory that exists. By excavation and finding those artifacts you not only get to know the rest of the map and everyone peacefully but also you get to compete with others to explore the map which is why you have explorer units for excavating. Science victories on the other hand will not allow you to explore the world. There are warmongers out there with tech nearby so you got to watch out for those who upgrade their units with level 3 sooner with tech. This is just a thought because I haven't have this happen but I could imagine it happening to me because of the AI in higher difficult levels that don't like my cultural progress but do like to lie to have their scientific progress and suddenly change to domination. Either way the AI doesn't leave you alone because they go for cultural victories as well and eventually meet everyone else, too.

Hope tourism goes back, but on the planned fourth age. This should come along with new works of art : Movies.

Well, movies existed in Civ 4 and could be a later work of art of some sort.

Tourism was bad because it only worked on small maps… I played VI on huge maps and it was nearly impossible to get tourism victory because there was always a snowballing civ half the world away which you couldn’t anything about other than wiping them out, which killed the feeling of playing a pacific culture game…

I don’t want it back !

He meant it as a great work of art. Not just as a luxury like it was implemented in civ 4 but I see the snowballing effect working so much more efficiently with a concealed AI at much higher difficulty levels than the player in civ 7 which might make it impossible to beat.

I wouldn't be surprised if some form of the Rock Band comes back. I could the unit being more general like "Music Artist" and you acquire Album Great works by performing in different civilization cities. Fits in with most of the other ages having a unit and great work tied to it.

Also goes well with my proposed "Counterculture" crisis.

The "Golden Age of Cinema" would fit in more with the Modern Age that we have now.

There were works of music in civ 4-6 but in civ 4 they were just a luxury while in civ 5 and 6 they just added to tourism.