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Cultural wins - how critical is stone and marble?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by FLUKE, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. FLUKE

    FLUKE Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
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    Location:
    Wales
    I had my first cultural win on Noble last night, but I put it down to getting marble and stone in my founding square, that was a such a lucky break and I dont think I would have had such an easy win otherwise, I won with 50 turns to go.

    Just wondering if cultural wins are worth trying for if you havent got these 2 important resources within easy reach.
     
  2. Refar

    Refar Deity

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    Apr 10, 2005
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    Stone and Marble are allways nice to have, but not Critical for any type Win. Same is true for Wonders. Sure on cultural each early wonder does help a little bit - but onle a handfull could be even close to be concideted "must have". Those few you can grab anyway, if you are going for it.

    The Cultural win is powered by a strong, compact base economy, religious multiplier buildings and Great Artists far more as it is dependant on Wonders.
     
  3. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    Not at all necessary. For a cultural win, size isn't important so you can sacrifice expansion for snagging wonders reliably.
    Also, when I spam wonders without going for a cultural victory, I try to build every non-artist wonder in my capital, which makes the races more difficult. When going for a culture win, I'm spreading them between 2-3 cities (if the 3rd city spot is a little weak, I'll get that up to par with culture bombs and possibly the Hermitage).
     
  4. Pioneer160

    Pioneer160 Chieftain

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    I don't think any particular resource is key to gaining cultural victory, 6 cities and lots of religons on a standard size map should be pretty easy at Noble level, just keep a good defense up, no matter how nice you are, if the computer doesn't think it can win via space race, it'll attack. Napoleon ruined my plans for cultural victory yesterday about 10 turns from the finish, he went from friendly to sneak attacking and invading a port city with a stack of about 20 knights. Sigh...
     
  5. Balderstrom

    Balderstrom Emperor

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    Stone I will go out of my way to acquire, Marble I can live without - but it is nice to have. I don't see how you could do a cultural victory with no wonders, but I haven't calculated the math to disprove it ;-) I would think it'd be much more difficult at the very least.
     
  6. towishimp

    towishimp Chieftain

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    May 12, 2005
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    Location:
    Ohio
    More difficult, yes, but not impossible. I've won cultural victories without many early wonders, but I've yet to win one without at least two maxed out religions to use for cathedrals. Three is even better.
     
  7. Jolly Rogerer

    Jolly Rogerer Prince

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    May 16, 2008
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    402
    Caste system and 3 good food cities running artists can replace wonders for a producing raw culture. Settle early Great Artists and perhaps save a few later ones for the end game to bomb your laggard city with Great Works.

    In either situation having as many religions as possible for the cathedral multiplier is good.

    Building culture in a high production city helps and IMO is less wasteful than creating culture via the slider, as it can be done only in the cities you want to become legendary. Unfortunately it can't compare to the amount of culture you can pump out via the slider in a city that has a lot of commerce.
     
  8. sanjay_111

    sanjay_111 Warlord

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    Mar 20, 2007
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    Can you have two cathedrals of the same religion in the same city ? I don't think so. Easy to check while playing the game but by the time I get cathedrals, I am so busy managing diplomacy that I forget to check this point every time !
     
  9. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Nope, 1 cathedral (and temple) of each religion per city max.
     
  10. Tecibbar

    Tecibbar unliving

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    I won't consider culture victory unless I have at least one wonder resource. Without them wonders and Catheral will cost so much more. Space race will be safer and faster.

    Personally, I think marble is more important than stone for a culture victory.
     
  11. sanjay_111

    sanjay_111 Warlord

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    Agree. While marble may not be absolutely critical for culture win, it helps a lot. Here are what become much easier with marble:

    1. Oracle (Free tech, make it COL and get confucianism)
    2. Parthenon (+50% GP rate in ALL cities, use the GPs, usually prophets because of the nature of buildings till then, to found christianity / Islam if you can)
    3. Hermitage
    4. Taj Mahal
    5. Sistine Chapel
    5. Hindu (and another, perhaps Islamic) cathedrals

    These buildings are all very helpful in culture win and all are much easier with marble. Though it may be called cheating, I sometimes regenerate map a couple of times until I can see marble by moving settler / warrior before hitting turn button.
     
  12. ButSam

    ButSam King

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    A handy BtS strategy, of significant importance IMHO for a Culture Victory is to use Oracle to get Theology as your free tech, and build the Apostolic Palace. You can do this pretty early, still found a religion, and now you have some diplomatic control -- "stop the war on me!" or "give me back my city!" become diplomatic votes you can propose if you are in charge. You still need defenses in your big 3 cities to be strong, but you at least have one more tool to alleviate your weakness. And you have at least some control over who has votes... although not complete control. True, your Great Artist points are corrupted with Great Prophets, but a GP now and then allows you to build your religious shrines which also provide +4 culture (+8 most likely once 1000 years pass, which should be quickly if you are still early in the game), and solves your gold problem so you can research very well. It also gives peace of mind that you have an additional counter to your weakness, and can force someone to go to peace with you (as long as you keep enough votes to be in charge -- the AI usually will vote in favor of peace.)
     
  13. eewallace

    eewallace King

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    Stone and marble aren't crucial to a cultural victory. There are multiple ways to get this victory--you don't need a huge number of wonders. With a philosophical leader, you can do it with a few key wonders--beeline the ones that will give you GA points. Or, as noted above, focus on acquiring religions and building cathedrals. I've actually got a cultural victory without ever using the culture slider, while simultaneously pursuing space race!
     
  14. Jolly Rogerer

    Jolly Rogerer Prince

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    The Industrious trait is automatically available at the start of a game and more powerful for speeding Wonder production than either stone or marble.

    My cultural wins were late(ish), did not feature use of the slider (I did use it to temporarily combat WW in one of the games), and saw me at the top of the powergraph as well as being the tech leader.
     
  15. harusame

    harusame Warlord

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    well, i think pyramid is crucial wonder for cultural victory
    at least up from emperor difficulty

    early representation+SE make you able to keep up with AI
    not to mention the happiness bonus, which is quite huge, at higher difficulty (up from emperor)

    the best thing is the usage of universal suffrage to rush production along mid game, without teching to democracy

    so, imo, yes stone is pretty much crucial
    but marble, well you can live without it
     

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