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[R&F] Culture/Tourist victory is hard to administrate

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Mahi, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Mahi

    Mahi Chieftain

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    Is it just me or is the UI for the world ranking of culture progress really bad? I don't see many who complain about this but I find it really hard figuring out how my tourist output is going during the game. I've looked up a couple of threads, which reveals the different equations to calculate the domestic/visiting tourism but why is it even necessary for me to look this up?
    I can appreciate the culture/tourism output shouldn't be a total straight forward 1:1 thing but the opacity of things during the game is killing me. Several times I have lost a culture victory because it's hard to keep an eye on the progress during the game. All the sudden some AI explodes with the tourist/culture output but you have no chance to figure out why. Sure I can just spam culture and tourism output and hope for the best but where is the fun in that?

    Still frustrated about how much war focus this game has become and how little attention all the other win conditions have had. Even the victory videos seems very bad made.
     
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  2. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    I wouldn't say the game has a war focus. I'd say the cumulative impact of many game design decisions has made warmongering far easier than playing the game peacefully.

    Accessibility to the game is hampered by the lack of information - and occasionally outright wrong information - provided to the player. There's no need for key formulas, like the ones that determine how many Tourists you attract, to be hidden, but they are.

    And apparently, spamming culture and tourism and hoping for the best is exactly what the development team thought would be fun, because the game doesn't explain anywhere how 1 point of tourism translates into actually getting tourists.

    There's a decent chance the game is set up this way because they fiddle with the formulas long after the text for the game has been written. So they write the text in general terms, and then play around with the math in the background. And there's likely two different groups working on the text and the code, so getting the two to align would require inter-group communication, which in turn requires a certain level of management supervision, etc.

    Getting a smooth, polished and accurate delivery of information from the game to the player takes time, effort, and a certain skill set, and depending on your personality type is less fun than adding in swirling desert winds. And maybe you sell more copies with swirling desert winds and an inaccurate UI than you do with an accurate UI and no desert winds.
     
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  3. Benzombie

    Benzombie Chieftain

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    Yeah I found the UI for it kinda confusing too. I don't really understand it either. I just make sure I always have a high tourism output all the time because I can't figure out the exact value of tourists I'm getting. For me, it was easier in Civ5, where the more tourism you have, the faster you influence a Civ to become more like you; It also helped for other victories. However in Civ6, it's just how many tourists you can get, which can be difficult to compare to any tourism values a player can see from different tourist sources.
     
  4. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

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    I feel I've been complaining on these boards about how the game doesn't tell you why you've generated the amount of Domestic Tourists that you have since launch.

    Even though I know formula now due to people looking into the files, there is still no excuse as to why Civ 6 does not give you ANY information about how you generate them.

    All it needs is a sentence in the Cultural Victory page on the Civilopedia that says "Domestic Tourists are generated from your civilization's lifetime culture gain" or whatever and that would be fine.

    But the fact that the game doesn't tell you how to win a victory condition is just awful.
     
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  5. Karpius

    Karpius Chieftain

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    This is one of those things in Civ6 that I hope the developers will eventually rectify for those who wish it. However, in my mind, it seems a bit more 'real life' as it is now.

    In the real world, one can never be sure what will constitute the sort of culture that will attract other cultures to come visit and increase your tourist industry. I don't see a tangible value that can be applied. In Civ6, all I need to know is that some things attract more tourists than others which will in turn affect the management of my civilization if I wish to pursue a more culturally appealing environment.

    However, I do recognize that "gamers" desire and require a clearer explanation of the mechanics and a clearer scoring system so they can make regular comparisons with their competition. So, as long as Firaxis (and the community) want to call this a game, then they should give it more game-like tools for the competitive folks who play it.

    For me and my style, no such tools are necessary, but Firaxis did not market Civ6 for the likes of me.
     
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  6. Softly

    Softly Chieftain

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    Domestic Tourist is based on your lifetime accumulated culture generated plus inspirations activated. Inspirations activated can be quite significant and is the reason you might see a "jump" in the tourism threshold from turn to turn.
     
  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Tourism victory seems very disconnected from the game atm. It's basically a barebones version of the Civ V one and currently is filling a vague bucket. And it does seem like Firaxis tradition to not explain anything.
     
  8. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Agreed. Being culturally dominant over another civ now has no impact outside of tourism victories.

    Possibly that changes if we get a world Congress type victory in a future expansion. No voting against proposals from a civ that's culturally dominant over yours?
     
  9. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    The easiest way would be just to copy Civ 5 and have no occupation time for capturing cities that you are culturally dominant over. It could also play a role in loyalty if you're ideologically superior to them but have different governments. Also spies could have advantages. I don't really need to come up with ideas because they've already been done, for the most part.

    Of course that system was pretty opaque too....
     
  10. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

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    The lack of information about how to achieve of a Cultural Victory is very similar to if Civ 6 decided not to tell you what techs and parts were necessary to build the spaceship to fulfill the Science Victory. You wouldn't mind if Civ 6 just didn't bother to tell you what techs unlock the spaceship parts and how which parts you need? Because that's exactly the issue that the Cultural Victory is lacking.

    Or if the game didn't tell how many cities of a religion were dominant on the map?

    Just spam end turn and then if anyone wins without you knowing why, that's okay?

    The basic definition of a game is that you are given a problem to solve with a set of objectives and rules laid out before you. This isn't just for video games, that's how all games work.

    So when Civ 6 sets up a system of rules for a condition to solve a problem, but then doesn't tell the player the basic rules of how to solve the problem, it's not much of a "game" at all.

    Civ is many things but it's not based on "real world" rules. It's a game that's loosely affiliated with historical references. And the actual rules of the game, the part that matters in the definition of a "game," is unarguably lacking in definition. And I'm not even suggesting that Civ 6 should be giving absurd amounts of data to the player. I'm saying that Firaxis' decision not to define what a Domestic Tourist is, which is 1 of the 2 total definitions that truly matter in understanding how the Cultural Victory works that does not appear at ALL in Civ 6, literally means that Firaxis is not doing its due diligence in calling Civ 6 a "game" by not defining a key part of its rules.
     
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  11. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I'm not 100% sure why it matters to know exactly how it works. You're not generally going to change your game much based on additional information. CV is still going to be getting the CV wonders, great works/artifacts, seaside resorts and national parks. Thwarting a CV would be the same as thwarting any other, use spies or an army.

    There's actually quite a bit of absolutely useless information like the tourism lense. I've opened that a couple times to say "Oh neat, there's people visiting my resort in Boston" but that's about it.

    Am I missing something here? I understand liking information but is there anything here that would change strategies in an impactful way?
     
  12. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

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    The tourism lens is only reviewing Visiting Tourists, and I think it helps to show my point that the Tourism Lens isn't helpful because it doesn't show the other half of the victory condition of explanation of why or how you receive Domestic Tourists. That lens only provides half of what matters in understanding the rules of the Cultural Victory.

    Let me flip your question around so I can try to draw a comparison. If you're going for a Science Victory, why does it matter to you that you can see how many beakers you're generating? Just turn that off the HUD since you were going to generate science anyway. Why does it matter what techs are required to start the project/build the parts? We were just going to grab all of the techs anyway and eventually we'd launch the spaceship.

    Would you accept that? If you're trying to go for a Science Victory but aren't told what generates science and what conditions need to be met to build the ship? Or would you want to know the very basic rules of the victory condition that you want? Wouldn't you want more than just the game telling you to "generate science"?
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    But it does tell you all the things that give you tourism. It just doesn't tell you how much or the calculations involved. Of course some information is buried in several civilpedia pages like the effects of cristo redentor and enlightenment.
     
  14. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

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    I'm not talking about tourism, I'm talking about Domestic Tourists specifically, and no it's not explained in the game anywhere. The game does not tell you in any capacity what generates a Domestic Tourist.
     
  15. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    So are you saying you'd like it to mirror the SV and just be about accumulating civics until you can build specific projects? Sort of like V's old version of CV? Even if they hid the science I was generating I'd still know I need to generate more if I'm falling behind or want a quicker victory. I'd just go by turn times to research. The changes in what we build and when would be miniscule. I kind of like that it is different now.

    What I'm saying is that unless the victory itself is changed I'm not sure what extra info would do to impactfully change your strategy. It's basically all about cranking out as much tourism as possible.

    Totally agree on the lenses, most of them are pretty worthless. That was kind of my point.
     
  16. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

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    Let's just get into the definition of the Culture Victory on the Civilopedia. It's a very simple definition:

    "The first civilization to possess a total number of Visiting Tourists that exceeds the Domestic Tourists of each other civilization in the game wins the Culture Victory."

    I will concede my point only if you can define, through only the game's definitions whether it be the civilopedia or world rankings tab or whatever (not looking on a website), what a Domestic Tourist is, how you generate them, and how get reach the value of them that you have (for example, if it's like turn 150 and you have 37 Domestic Tourists. where did that number come from)?

    I think you and I are talking about two different things. I'm not really talking about strategy/minmaxing as much as I am saying that the rules of the game for the Culture Victory are not explained, which differs from any other victory in the game.

    On your point, I'm not arguing that you're ultimately trying to pump out more tourism than your opponent. I'm just responding to the original poster that the game does not explain the definitions that it needs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2018
  17. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Let's test that. Another civ is closing in on a cultural victory. Their visiting tourists now exceed the domestic tourists of every civ except yours. It's going to take you at least 10 more turns before you win a science victory.

    What can you do to increase your domestic tourists so the other civ doesn't win before you do? Or do you not worry about it, drive on to victory as quick as you can and hope for the best?

    There's nothing wrong with the latter approach, but many players would prefer to be proactive.
     
  18. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    I generally try to catch that sooner than that and use spies steal GWs and neutralize Reyna long before that. It's rare for me to not be in top 3 domestic tourists so closing borders and declaring war helps. You can steal cities but sometimes pillaging trade routes and seaside resorts will slow them down. Considering how easy it is to sabatoge tourism, trying to generate domestic tourists seems like a tougher way to be proactive even if you knew exactly what levers to pull.

    This is easy to do even running an SV considering human players will rarely use more than 2 to 3 cities to build rocket parts and in general have 6 or more cities.

    I'm not just trying to be contrarian I'm just asking what use this information would actually be considering the other proactive options at your disposal.

    I'm only bringing this up because I just finished a game where the Khmer nearly had a runaway CV and I proactively stopped it by DoWing him so I could get my ship off the ground. I just liberated cities and pillaged his resorts while wreaking havoc with spies. Pretty proactive imo.
     
  19. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    So in other words, the AI is so incompetent there are lots of ways to prevent it from winning a cultural victory. Therefore you don't need to know how to generate domestic tourists.

    I'd prefer the game explained how domestic tourists are created, the same way it explains how to steal great works, and then I can decide which approach I want to pursue.
     
  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    No way to generate domestic tourists in a hurry that I know of. Would be nice to have a policy card or something to do so, but I doubt they will alter the cultural victory conditions any time soon.
     
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