1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[R&F] Culture/Tourist victory is hard to administrate

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Mahi, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    873
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    "The AI being incompetent" explains a lot of victories in this game. Spies and war are generally the only answer if you spot an opponent nearing victory before you can hit your chosen VC because other options are generally game long commitments.

    The likelihood that you can sufficiently ramp up domestic tourism in the last few turns like you've described is low. At best you may slow them down a couple turns at the risk of slowing your own VC. I'm saying this because the game appears to be designed so foreign tourism inevitably overwhelms domestic because of all the late game tourism modifiers.

    If the answer to how to generate more DTs is to ramp up population, increase culture generation or some other peaceful non sabatoge way would you change much about how you're building or would you just race to your own victory? Especially considering the quicker easier solutions you have at your fingertips? What I keep asking is even if this information were crystal clear in your hands would it really impact the meta?
     
  2. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,782
    Gender:
    Male
    You could drop the "in a hurry" part and just leave it as "I don't know how domestic tourists are generated other than it has something to do with culture" and that's the state the game leaves you in based on the information provided to the player. Are you sure you can't pump some out quickly? How would you know if you don't know exactly how they're created? If you were a new player to the series, then how would you know?

    If that's okay to you, great. As I said before, it's likely the development team has determined they sell more copies of a game with swirling desert wind and opaque mechanics than they would creating a game that provides accurate information to the players.

    @Socrates99 :
    I don't know how you can say I wouldn't change anything if I knew how the game works. Without knowing, I can't say. You're happy to play the game without knowing the exact formulas, and I respect that. You may be exactly the consumer Civ 6 is designed for. If Firaxis' approach enhances your game play experience, that's encouraging, as that's what the game should be doing. It diminishes the game play experience for me, but one approach can't please everybody.
     
  3. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    873
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    Sounds like you are worried about doing it in a hurry there.

    D T count is usually low enough compared to the scope of the game that I'm almost 100% certain even if you knew exactly what levers to pull its unlikely that you could shift focus late game to slow down a late game threat without compromising your own VC.

    I'm cool with you wanting to know and luckily we're on a forum where people dig up that kind of thing. I'm just pointing out that it's pretty frivolous information that won't be truly impactful. Complaining that Firaxis neglectfully left out frivolous information seems pointless.

    That "maybe you're the kind of consumer" comment seemed a little passive aggressive. Don't do that. I only asked a question and have yet to receive any kind of answer.
     
  4. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,380
    Gender:
    Male
    ??? Why have any indicator for anything then?

    You don't need a indicator for science victory. Just build all the parts.

    You don't need to know what capitals you've captured for domination victory. You're still going to capture them all.

    It's much easier to keep track of things, especially for new players. I don't need to check for what parts I need for science victory anymore, but I sure did when I first played.
     
  5. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,782
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not frivolous information to me or others who have responded to your question with an explanation about why we want the game to explain basic concepts like how domestic tourists are created.

    Pointing out that you may be the type of consumer Civ 6 is designed for was intended simply to acknowledge that player expectations differ. You're happy with the approach Firaxis has taken. They can't please everybody. In this instance, they haven't pleased me, but maybe they weren't trying to. Perhaps they're trying to attract customers who want the things you want. As you point out, knowing this would not be impactful to you.
     
  6. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    512
    I don't think it's frivolous. If it was frivolous why did the original poster write a forum post about it?

    So let me just go to the heart of the issue.

    This is the civilopedia's description of how to win the Cultural Victory:

    "The first civilization to possess a total number of Visiting Tourists that exceeds the Domestic Tourists of each other civilization in the game wins the Culture Victory."

    Tell me what a Visiting Tourist and a Domestic Tourist is using any resource in the game to find that information. If you can't find it, then the game unarguably and quite literally is not telling you how to win the Culture Victory. Which leads directly the the original poster's complaint about the obscurity of the Culture Victory.
     
  7. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    873
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ok, I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here. It'd be interesting info to look at. I've said that. What I'm also saying is that optimal strategies often neglect things that "could be useful" in favor of things that "are useful." This isn't about me being happy in the dark. It should be painfully obvious that shredding an opponents tourism using spies you already build anyway and the army you've been upgrading since the acient/classical era would be more optimal than deciding to build extra theater squares just because Teddy is in the game.

    I'm just saying "yay for information" but would it really be impactful? They probably had a similar discussion over at Firaxis. Don't mistake me for a blind defender, I'm as willing as the next guy to ask for changes when it'd matter. I've just yet to see a legit explanation of where having this info would change anything for someone going for a different VC.
     
  8. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    512
    I think you're banging your head because you are complicating the discussion by avoiding what the original poster is complaining about to create a wholly tangential discussion. The original poster and I are not talking about "optimal strategies" or "shredding tourism using spies" or "Teddy" and I'm not interested in that kind of discussion. That's not what the original poster brought up. This is about the game not explaining the definitions so you can know how the game works. It's a user interface oversight.

    How do you achieve a Cultural Victory?

    "The first civilization to possess a total number of Visiting Tourists that exceeds the Domestic Tourists of each other civilization in the game wins the Culture Victory."

    It is possible to understand where the number of Visiting Tourists are coming from by checking the Tourism lens. It's a shoddy way to display that information but at least it's there.

    There is absolutely NOTHING in the game that tells you what a Domestic Tourist is, how you generate them, and why you have the number of them that you have. Which isn't good if the game tells me I need them to satisfy the victory condition.

    So if I'm playing Civilization for the first time and I say "hey I want to win a Cultural Victory" and I read the definition and it tells me that I need Domestic Tourists and doesn't tell me how to get them, does that not seem like the game isn't telling you important information?
     
  9. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    873
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    And I'm saying what changes? Whether you know how your opponent generates DTs you're still just going to pour everything into maximizing tourism. Your choices aren't going to suddenly change because you're in the know.

    You keep mentioning SV and parts. Whether consciously or subconsciously it's probably because it's the only VC where you produce X amount of beakers and hammers. It's static for the most part. The other VCs are moving targets. You don't know how many cities other than capitals you're going to have to capture for a dom vic. You don't know how many times you have to convert and reconvert cities for a RV. You dont know how many points will be sufficient to win a points victory. For a CV you don't know until the very end exactly how many tourists you need to attract in a given game.

    For all 4 of those victories you do have a goal though, it's just a moving goal. You do know what you have to do to get it. So you just minmax to get there. Maximize faith output, maximize points, dominate as fast as possible and accumulate as much tourism as humanly possible.

    Learning how DTs accumulate won't suddenly make it so you produce more or less tourism.
     
  10. Karpius

    Karpius Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    623
    As I pointed out in my post.....

    I recognize and understand what the OP was initially commenting on. I was merely offering my own comment that *I* personally had no need of such tools. *I* often like the unknown factor to better emulate the unknowns that all of our historic leaders faced. Gothic cathedrals were not built throughout Europe to compete with the potential tourism generated by the Pyramids. The Chinese did not build a great wall to out do the cultural significance of the Acropolis or the Hanging Gardens. They were built for a specific need or desire of the time without any real consideration of future tourism competition.

    You will also note in my post that I stated I hope Firaxis will address this for the sake of the "gamers" who require it for the sake of their "game' because Firaxis did indeed market this as a "game" and as such should make all the rules of the "game" clear for those who need it.

    It is true that there is no explanation of exactly how tourist are generated. How many culture points does it take to keep citizens from visiting other lands? Or, how many culture points does it take to attract foreign tourists? I have no idea of the details or the math, but I "recognize" that there are many who require and desire such details.

    I can whip up a Culture Victory about as quick as anyone if I choose to actually "play the game". Its sort of a no-brainer. Build lots of your own culture and ruin the culture of other civs that start to run away with it.

    Firaxis did NOT market this game for someone like me. They marketed Civ6 as a game to "gamers" and as such should supply the targeted demographic with the details they require and desire.

    I, however, am someone who, despite all the rules (detailed or not) can enjoy playing in *my* sandbox/lego style and enjoy endless ours of building civilizations to suit my whim of the moment.
     
  11. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,782
    Gender:
    Male
    That's something I think Civ 6 does well. I could see the game having great longevity for people who enjoy an empire-building sim. The in game artwork is fabulous, you have lots of cool toys to play with, and each leader gets a different set of bonuses to explore.

    Much like the Civ 4 vs Civ 5 debate, which at the end comes down to the two of them being completely different games that appeal to different people, I'm reconciling myself to the reality that as much as Civ 6 looks like a successor to Civ 5, it's not. It's a completely different game that will appeal to quite different people. It shares a series name and at the surface level some similar mechanics, but it offers a completely different game play experience.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,947
    It was a great idea on paper that became complex when they implemented it. What really annoyed the hell out of me is when they removed the culture per turn hints in the culture victory screen... very vital information they moved to the overall victory screen forcing you to flit between the two.
    Domestic tourists is straight forward.... foreign tourists varies depending on game size and has many modifiers in different places but the bottom line is you can see roughly how much domestic and foreign tourism the opposition is creating but there are events that can make this change from turn to turn, after all tourism is not a precise science in reality so why should it be in game.

    Yup, pitiful, especially as it has not changed and how hard it is to write "each domestic tourist is an accumulation of 100 culture gained in each turn through any source (including combat, eurekas, pillaging, moon landing and so on) Each time another civ gains a foreign tourist off your civ, your domestic tourists decreases by one."
    It is foreign tourists that is much harder to calculate.

    Of course you have! ... you just do not bother to read those messages that provide information like they have started building a wonder or they have an inspiration for a lavatory. While a violent CV is often best a non violent should include good diplomacy that by default gives good visibility. The best CV player i have seen did not know why an opposition suddenly gained 4 domestic tourists... I pointed out it was probably 2 eurekas and sure enough she could see it.
     

    Attached Files:

    acluewithout likes this.
  13. drubell

    drubell Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    512
    Or even simpler. It would've been sufficient to just write "A Domestic Tourist is a representation of your lifetime culture generation." It wouldn't give the full picture, but it at least explains why generating culture is important to win the Culture Victory. But instead there's nothing and that's not acceptable for a game as high profile as Civilization.

    I agree that the Tourism Lens is a bit shoddy, but it does at least account for each Visiting Tourist if you take the time to look at the Lens. And that does help for players to understand the best ways to generate tourism by experimenting with the Lens. But yeah, the Tourism Lens could be more effective in showing that information.
     

Share This Page