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Culture Towers

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by wooga, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. wooga

    wooga Chieftain

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    I'm trying to think of someway to "stake my claim" to territory, prior to founding a city. In civ3, a line of explorers/warrior could block of geographic bottlenecks and prevent friendly nations from settling "your" land. Now that friendly units can share the same space, this strategy won't work.

    I was thinking about adding a worker outpost ability which creates a culture border for that square only. Problem is, this seems totally unrealistic to me, and creates a serious potential for multiplayer abuse.

    Any suggestions on a realistic way to allow a player to 'claim' land?
     
  2. AlexTG

    AlexTG Chieftain

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    I think it's a good idea. Maybe make it somehow so forts have a small culture border, one easily blocked out by a city (ie. 1 culture). Then if you made it so you can only put 1 fort every 2 squares like cities, I don't think it would be unbalancing. But the AI would never use it so it's hard to say.
     
  3. gerryandersson

    gerryandersson The one with to much time

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    Be there first or lose the land...:p

    I totaly agree with you, it is realy irritating when the other civ´s take what is yours, but I think that this shuld not be changed as it ads a competative rivalry with your oponents (you can always take the land later and raze thir cities ;) ).

    Edit: I don´t like the idea with the forts, I like to build forts all over the place.
     
  4. miragechaser

    miragechaser Chieftain

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    Ideally you should be able to lay claim to a certain landmass. For instance an entire island or up to a river or something. This has happened many times through history. The United States' "Manifest Destiny" for instance claimed our country should reach from "sea to shining sea". Building culture borders I think would be far too overpowered and unrealistic. While many countries have layed claim to a piece of land, rarely were these claims taken seriously unless that land was inhabited. Perhaps you could claim a territory and the AI's Willingness to abide by your decree would depend on your relationship with them. Of course this would probably be impossible to mod but its just a thought.
     
  5. ozborn

    ozborn Chieftain

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    Forts would be best for this, since this is simply denying your friendly neighbour access to your military base which is realistic. You could build forts at strategic locations to prevent your rival from accessing terrority.

    Also this idea has a low chance for abuse since nobody wants to cover all of their terrain with forts when it could be used for a more productive improvement.
     
  6. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    Well, in the mod I'm working on, I'm revamping the system slightly... cities have been the only source of population in the Civilization series, and what's more, all population movement has been governed by the player via Settlers. BUT it would also be possible to have a dynamic population expansion system that would take place on its own... and people would gradually begin to fill up the most desirable tiles. Upon reaching a certain population, the tile would become a city, and it's owner would be dependent on, among other things, the people who colonized the tile. So every population point... though more probably will have to be a fraction of a population point, would be attributed to one civilization or another.

    I think this would work well to help civs stake claims and also allow people's civilizations to grow naturally on their own without requiring them to expend a lot of time and energy constructing settler units when they could be focusing on something else. The downside, of course, is that you wouldn't have control over these populations... however, you would still be able to construct settler units if you have a very specific location in mind. Populations expand and grow on their own, but sometimes a leader will direct people to colonize a particular region.
     
  7. The Great Apple

    The Great Apple Big Cheese

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    Wow. That sounds awsome. How far are you forward in getting it to work?
     
  8. Colonel Kraken

    Colonel Kraken Deity

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    This is my dream for a Civ series game!!
     
  9. Colonel Kraken

    Colonel Kraken Deity

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    To extend upon that idea, I would also like to see tiles that are worked are automatically improved. Why wouldn't citizens living in a specific area not plant farms, etc.? I know this means a bit of a loss of control to the player, but I just think it makes more sense and adds to the epic feel of the game. As the government, you could "sponsor" certain projects.

    Of course, we could use different Civics to decide if the government has more or less control over how tiles are improved. I think it makes incredible sense that where tiles are worked, little cottages will automatically spring up.

    Over time, with technological and civic progress, these cottages will grow and automatically produce mills, smiths, merchants, etc. Why should any of these things be government controlled? How awesome would it be to have your choice of CIVICS determine how independent (and prosperous) your citizens are! Of course, the government would still decide to build National and World Wonders. The government would still build military and other governmental buildings. To me, that would simply be awesome!
     
  10. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    :)

    Yes, I didn't mention it, but that's the plan. Certain kinds of improvements would still be in the hands of the player though such as Castles/Forts. And probably roads since decent paved roads tended to be created by the government and not just the locals... BUT those roads would increase the desirability of a tile and thus increase the number of immigrants to it and thus increase speed with which farms, camps, etc. develop on the land.

    Colonel we are of one mind :) I'm in the process of building a website that outlines the details of what I want to see in my mod The Age of Man. And in it, I lay out about how the new economy works... basically, much of the processes of society and economics have been removed from the player's control depending on civics.

    For example, if you have National Production (i.e. Communism) most of this stuff will be under the control of the player, but if you are playing with Free Trade, Free Market, Unregulated Production, etc. the cities will basically run themselves. The only improvements not constructed by the citizens would be military and government buildings as well as some of the utilities.

    The "downside" to this form of civics would be that the leader has access to a very small portion of a city's "hammers". In other words, Banks, Factories, etc. will be popping up on their own, but whatever the player happens to have in the build queue will take longer to build than it would under a command economy where all of the city's resources could be dedicated to that one task at the expense of everything else.

    But I digress :o

    Suffice it to say, I think the system I proposed would be a good way to help "stake claims" to certain areas.

    I do like the idea of Castles and Forts to extend a civilization's claim to a region, and perhaps it would require that some population be already occupying a tile... and that also a Castle or Fort would in fact increase the speed of expansion to said region as it would make citizens feel safer.
     
  11. Sun Tzu

    Sun Tzu Chieftain

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    Dom Pedro II, I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that control over the fort/castle will be out of the players hands, or that control of all cities will be out of the players hands. I fully agree, and would be deeply satisfied, by your idea of building forts and letting them prosper etc. but as I either understand/misunderstand, I do not agree about giving up control of all my cities. Let me know about that webpage when you finish it.
     
  12. Colonel Kraken

    Colonel Kraken Deity

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    I assume most of this has to happen with Python. Or, how do you propose to make these changes? I'd love to help, but I know nothing about Python.

    Of course, a "free market" type government would be able to spend their increased gold supply to finish these improvements. ;)
     
  13. Jouda

    Jouda .

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    That sounds great! Personally I would go much further - I don't like the current system of culture based territory expanding. Culture should just help you to hold the empire together, but why should you lose land because of lacking theaters? I would like ALL units to have an ability to mark all visible nearby tiles as your territory. This could be automated so that you would not need to micromanage it. I am convinced this would add many new features to gameplay such as land anexations, quarrels over certain tiles, livelong hatred because of land claims etc. Culture borders could still exist independently on territory borders.
     
  14. killbot

    killbot Chieftain

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    I've been thinking a lot about a system like this. The one that I envisioned would have a system of supply and demand that would basically govern all production outside of government control. If there was a high demand, say, for happiness (ie unhappy citizens) production would be focused on a consumer goods improvement (like wealth, only happiness) or on planting luxuries (farming tropical fruits, planting vinyards). Similarly, more iron and coal mines would be created when more factories have been built, more farms would be made when population rises, etc. I was thinking about applying the same concepts to almost all improvements - basically, the more an improvement gets used, the sooner it will be upgraded (Library -> University in a similar way to cultural expansion).
    I'm really looking forward to seeing how your project turns out, Dom Pedro, because the economy seems like one of the more important aspects of civ left to be refined.
    I was also thinking of a system where in early times your civ would create new improvements in the most profitable places, then as free markets were opened the world would invest in the most profitable places. This could add a great deal of depth to the game.
     
  15. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel Yeah, well... Supporter

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    This is one of the basic concepts of SSS. Good luck getting it to work in Civ. It sounds like it would require a major overhaul of the city model in the SDK.
     
  16. tdb

    tdb Warlord

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    What about military units? Will those be produced automatically too? And will they be affected by the reduced hammers?
     
  17. Master Kodama

    Master Kodama Nitpicker

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    Dom Pedro II, this sounds like a fascinating idea.

    Seems like some people need to read a little more closely/carefully. ;) Dom Pedro II didn't say either of these things -- cities will not be entirely out of the players control forts/castles will be FULLY under the players control. Only certain aspects of production will be modelled more naturalistically, if I understand correctly.

    He said military units would be under direct player control, and I assume from what's been said that they would be affected by the reduced number of shields.
     
  18. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

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    Well, I was hoping to avoid further threadjacking, but questions continue to persist... ;)

    In short, most units will not be generated automatically. However, if one has the civic Patronage (now called Vassalage) units like Knights will not be built by the player but will be generated from the cities... but there will be a set limit on how many there can be at any one time. Since that was basically the function of vassals in the first place (to provide military units) it seems like a good idea that they should do so here.
     
  19. wooga

    wooga Chieftain

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    I consent to your threadjack Dom Pedro. ;)

    After all, you are proposing a theory that addresses the basic problem of "staking your claim to land".

    I'm leaning towards a simpler solution, however. I'm thinking of a modified explorer unti who can literally "plant flags" on squares. It takes 'X' turns for the explorer to plant the flag, and a square remains flagged for 'Y' turns. Flagging a square would either (1) give you a temporary border for that square, or (2) prevent any other civ from building a city with two spaces of that flag.
     

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